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Sthira

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  1. Dean, I’m not real interested in arguing for the sake of it, as it appears you may be doing. The gist here is Fahy tried this protocol on himself, with the aim of regrowing his thymus. Evidently his success led him (during the course of many years and working within the confines of a severely limited budget) to try the protocol on some older males with atrophied thymuses. Here in this published work he’s showing limited success at in that preliminary venture. Go ahead and throw your shade, argue all you want on this backwater site; but my point, as clearly expressed above and ignored, is that this is the type of experimentation that’s gonna be necessary to in order to advance longevity science. Advancement will occur through the efforts of those actually trying things. Even if Dean on the CR Forum doesn’t like it. Since you appear so well-versed in regrowing involuted thymuses, perhaps you should send Fahy et al your advice and insights? I mean, they’ve devoted more than a decade to it, but maybe you know more.
  2. Longevity science has a history of being ignored, marginalized, underfunded, mocked by the real scientists doing the important science. s/ Should I be surprised, though, to see that tradition reflected in here of all places? Gentle reminder that you’re posting on a Calorie Restriction Society Forum. And CR or CRON or CRAN in the bodies of CRONnies or CRANnies or whoever you are is one big ole self-induced behavioral experiment in under-eating, while not-knowing much “science” about anything human at all: “FAQ How Many Calories Should I Eat? What's My Goal Weight? What's My Setpoint? What "%CR" Am I? “By Michael R, June 6, 2017 in CR Practice Setpoint “People starting CR would very much like to have definitive, hard-and-fast answers to these questions, and unfortunately, there just isn't any way to give one in free-living humans! No one can tell you the exact point at which you're "on CR" or what "%CR" you are. These are guidelines and principles for entering the "CR continuum." And we don’t even know if this continuum (and I’m on it, for sure, I’m experimenting with CR at 20% for years now...) we don’t know if this is a healthy program, an unhealthy program — we don’t know much. Will I live a longer, healthier life because I’m eating less? And we’ll never know because the conventional science you desire is just too limited. My point here in this stuffy old room is that it’s gonna take revolutionary people creating new windows — taking risks, stepping outside boundaries, doing work that will be sidelined and mocked by the establishment for more years. Advances in longevity science are gonna require best-effort attempts that sometimes simply must be “...Relatively short-term, heterogeneous, multi-pronged intervention. Small test population. No control group. Post hoc analysis based on dubious surrogate endpoint...” because what else was Fahy supposed to do here? With limited funding and support? Should they have given up? Or just do the best they could have done within this harsh desert of limited funding? The only reason this study doesn’t meet the high standards you desire is due to lack of funding. Think Fahy didn’t want to create the best possible effort to regrow the involuted human thymus? He didn’t have the hundreds of millions required. You get what you pay for, and now you get less and so you throw stones. Did any of you contribute to this work? Or have you contributed to any budding, revolutionary human longevity science? I get it if you can’t because you’re poor. But if you’ve got it, did you donate something? Can you now support someone else attempting something revolutionary that still may not meet your exacting standards? Sure, throw shade on budding efforts — reminder that SENS is budding — mock it, disparage the people doing what’s necessary to try to help you. Part of tired out old tradition. And really — evidently claiming Fahy spent a decade of his life for clickbait or some speculative biotech stock gains — I mean, wow... You should be ashamed, frankly. We should invite Fahy for an AMA here. de Grey: “Public enthusiasm for new advances is a key ingredient in influencing policy-makers to stimulate follow-up work with suitable funding, and it can be achieved far faster now that interested non-specialists can explore new research autonomously and can also be appealed to directly by scientists.”
  3. Wow, I’m surprised at such breezy dismissals of an actual anti-aging study in real, live and healthy human beings. Isn’t this what we want? To slow, stop, reverse human aging? Shouldn’t any paper that states “....we conducted what may be the first human clinical trial designed to reverse aspects of human aging...” capture your attention and admiration? Your imagination should be stimulated for what good things may be ahead in this young field (that’s obviously so egregiously underfunded and under supported). The recombinant human growth hormone (rhGH) Fahy used in this work was targeted “to prevent or reverse signs of immunosenescence in a population of 51‐ to 65‐year‐old healthy men.” From the paper: “Because GH‐induced hyperinsulinemia (Marcus et al., 1990) is undesirable and might affect thymic regeneration and immunological reconstitution, we combined rhGH with both dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) and metformin in an attempt to limit the “diabetogenic” effect of GH (Fahy, 2003, 2010; Weiss, Villareal, Fontana, Han, & Holloszy, 2011). DHEA has many effects, in both men and women, that oppose deleterious effects of normal aging (Cappola et al., 2009; Forti et al., 2012; Shufelt et al., 2010; Weiss et al., 2011). Metformin is a powerful calorie restriction mimetic in aging mice (Dhahbi, Mote, Fahy, & Spindler, 2005) and has been proposed as a candidate for slowing aging in humans (Barzilai, Crandall, Kritchevsky, & Espeland, 2016). Neither DHEA (Riley, Fitzmaurice, & Regelson, 1990) nor metformin are known to have any thymotrophic effects of their own.” This is a wonderful study — albeit humble and hard-fought due to funding limitations — and of course it needs replication. But like WTF.... But why aren’t you excited?! This is an effort — a decade or so in the making — in which Fahy et al “...observed protective immunological changes, improved risk indices for many age‐related diseases, and a mean epigenetic age approximately 1.5 years less than baseline after 1 year of treatment (−2.5‐year change compared to no treatment at the end of the study)...” I feel like this is a moment you should be supportive of these baby steps, not dismissive. This very protocol may lead to actual effective human interventions that someday gonna save yo’ hide! And. It’s. Not. In. Genetically Altered Rodents! Hey there, happy: get happier.
  4. Sthira

    How I Get Exercise... (using vr)

    Boxing in VR like that would stress the shit out of me. But I really like the idea of VR as an educational tool. ““I’m calling for investments in educational technology that will help create. . . educational software that’s as compelling as the best video game. I want you guys to be stuck on a video game that’s teaching you something other than just blowing something up.” – Barack Obama More easily learning new languages looks useful and cool, and of course space travel — have you tried Mission: ISS? Or journeyed inside a human cell? http://thebodyvr.com/ ”The Body VR: Journey Inside a Cell is an award-winning educational virtual reality experience that takes the user inside a human cell. The experience allows you to travel through the bloodstream and discover how blood cells work to spread oxygen throughout the body. You then enter one of the billions of living cells inside our body and learn how the organelles work together to fight deadly viruses...” I like the looks of Sharecare... https://www.oculus.com/experiences/rift/1656800021020362/ Guess I’m probably going to have to get an Oculus Quest when I’ve enough time and money. Thanks for the reminder.
  5. Sthira

    Eat more jellyfish poop

    About 1:15 minutes into this slightly goofy interview, ( https://youtu.be/GL6dasaA9e0) Dr. Steven Gundry (The Plant Paradox) says: “We can actually extend our lifespan to things that people can’t even imagine. And it actually has to do not with you and me and what we conceive of as our bodies, but it turns out that 90% of all the cells that make you and me, me, are actually non-human cells. They’re bacteria, viruses, funguses, worms that live in us and on us. “And the shocking thing is that 99% of all the genes that make up you and me are non-human genes. They’re bacterial and viral genes. And what we’ve completely missed from the human genome project is that we have actually very few genes. And our genes are about 99% the same as a chimp or a gorilla. And we’re very different from chimps or gorillas. Yet we have virtually the same genes. What makes us different is actually the bacteria and viruses that live inside us. You can actually show when humans evolved from the other great apes, that our bacteria actually changed. We can actually identify that point in time, that the bacteria made us rather than our genes made us.” A moment later he says: “As shocking as it may seem most of what happens to us is determined by the state and the variation of the bacteria primarily in our gut. I’ll give you an example. You can take a bowel movement from an obese individual and feed it to a skinny rat. Skinny rats love to eat poo. Those skinny rats will become fat. Because the bacteria have actually manipulated their feeding habits. They actually send text messages to the brain to go look for foods that they would not otherwise consume that those bacteria want. We can actually, there was a cool study in ... a woman marathon runner in England a couple of years ago who developed very severe infection in her colon called c. Difficile... And the modern treatment for this is a fecal transplant, taking poop from somebody else and shoving it up your ass. And you try to get a fecal transplant from a family member because believe it or not family members tend to share their bacteria. I share a lot of bacteria with my dogs and they share with me. So they found a cousin for her and she got the fecal transplant, and everything went well, her c. Difficile went away, we go into why that happened. In the next year, this marathon runner gained 32 pounds without changing anything. And it turns out her niece, cousin, was actually about 32 pounds overweight. And so she was inoculated with obesogenic bacteria. And her bacteria, these little one celled organisms, controlled her behavior...” So why not drink pond koi poop? Or eat Geoducks? Geoducks live 160 years. We should shove their poop up our bums and obtain their longevity bacteria. If I surround myself with hundreds of pet Tuataras here in my apartment, if I share their eating patterns, their bacteria, their viruses and worms, will I live as long as the Tuatara? I could develop a taste for Lamellibrachia tube worms, their poop and bacteria. Some of you here have nice houses and big yards, even orchards and farms: adopt tortoises, and eat their poo. The oldest known specimens of arctic sponges are 1,550 years old. Sponge soup? Yum. I’ll post a recipe. Turritopsis nutricula jellyfish might be the only animal in the world to have discovered the fountain of youth. Since it’s capable of cycling from a mature adult stage to an immature polyp stage and back again, there may be no natural limit to its life span. Because they are able to bypass death, the number of individuals is spiking. “We are looking at a worldwide silent invasion (of Turritopsis nutricula jellyfish),”says Dr. Maria Miglietta of the Smithsonian Tropical Marine Institute. I have a solution. Eat them. Not only will humanity stop the silent invasion, but we’ll also live forever.
  6. Sthira

    Biosphere 3

    Has anyone here been to Biosphere 2? I haven’t, but In briefly reading some of its history, the entire project seems a little heartbreaking. (Is that the right word?) ...So much seemingly lost potential in so many areas of basic planetary and human health related inquiry.... Several books exist about the project, can anyone (who has actually read one) recommend one? I wonder what happened to all of the Biosphere 2 crew members (other than just Allen and Walford)? Would initiating a new, Biosphere 3 project help the human longevity movement in any way you imagine? I smell an Elon Musk-like odor of wealthy interest...
  7. “...The biggest mistake professionally successful people make is attempting to sustain peak accomplishment indefinitely. “How can I overcome this tendency? The Buddha recommends, of all things, corpse meditation: Many Theravada Buddhist monasteries in Thailand and Sri Lanka display photos of corpses in various states of decomposition for the monks to contemplate. “This body, too,” students are taught to say about their own body, “such is its nature, such is its future, such is its unavoidable fate.” At first this seems morbid. But its logic is grounded in psychological principles—and it’s not an exclusively Eastern idea. “To begin depriving death of its greatest advantage over us,” Michel de Montaigne wrote in the 16th century, “let us deprive death of its strangeness, let us frequent it, let us get used to it; let us have nothing more often in mind than death.” Yoga practice ends in savasana, the corpse pose. Savasana (to lay there, be still, relax) is called the most difficult yoga pose. We practice dying individually and collectively; savasana ultimately signifies the death of the universe.
  8. Sthira

    Olive oil? Healthy or not?!

    Nice reminder. I'm digging this from Amphora: https://amphoranueva.com/store/index.php?p=product&id=213 Chilean Coratina "Harvest Date: May 2018 Biophenols: 645 FFA: .19 Perox: 6.3 Oleic: 79.5 A wonderfully fruity Chilean Oil! This Coratina has classic notes of green banana and apple peel. Viscous with a jolt of pungency on the back end. An excellent choice for folks looking for a high phenol oil with a kick!"
  9. Sthira

    Drowning in kombucha

    Happy Spring, scrawny people! I'm on 15-17% CR again for the past six months, including water-only fasting stints, and I'm wondering about your take on nutrition in commercial brands of Kombucha, e.g., GT's? I've even done some kombucha fasts, oddly enough, wherein I drink only water or kombucha and don't consume anything else. When refeeding, I'm drinking hideous amounts of it, like 36-64 oz per day, and is it healthy, kombucha from the store, or should I begin the weaning process? GT's kombucha seems to round off some vitamin and nutrient deficiencies as seen in my cronometer dailies, I like it, it's delicious, it's expensive, it's habit-forming.. is it also junk food?
  10. Sthira

    How to Avoid Bonking?

    When offered the luxury, I let myself bonk for as long as I feel like it. What's my hurry? I think there's also an adjustment period we need to give our bodies when changing habits, especially if abruptly. Like I do -- sudden change is a kind of stress and the body, poor thing, it's just a mammal and it needs a moment to do whatever it needs to do. I guess the problem is when you need to rest and you cannot rest because of, well, all of ... That. I get enormous energy from fasting now, but it can be inconsistent. Ups and downs might be sharper. Way up I go with loads of sunshine for everything; then way down into sleep for maybe longer than socially acceptable.
  11. Sthira

    CRON without counting calories?

    Maybe yes maybe no: doesn't blood pressure fluctuate all the time? I guess we're looking for trends. Proud advice I took from others is that CR is a practice and not a perfect. Sounds tipsy in words maybe to say it like that, like wandering along a cliff, but I'm a perfectionist by nature so I'm easily upset when I'm not humming along at peak heights of new skill attained instantly, effortlessly. Something like that. Then I'm hard on myself when I realize oh shit I'm not living up to my tightrope-crossing standards and death is below without a net. Stress. If you're eyeballing, and you're not perfectly weighing your food down to the bitter gram with a calibrated, scale of hideous perfection, then don't beat yourself up (sorry cliche alert code red). The fact that you're trying this thing, CR or ON or whatever, the fact that you're conscious and noticing and caring enough to document is a step into canyons of many steps (sorry, I'm full of "traveling canyons east to west" cliches). Also that you weight has dropped, you notice, you care, you care enough to wonder am I practicing CR or not, and is it working to do .... whatever .... is pretty cool. At least it is here, anyway, quiet virtual corner it's become. Do Good Habits!
  12. Sthira

    The Call of the Wild

    Out of all of your great posts, Dean, I think this one is inside my top two or three favorites. Thank you.
  13. Sthira

    Purportedly Xenohormetic Phytochemicals

    How do we vegans feel about consuming mushrooms? I admit I love them ferociously, I eat them and eat them, I steam them, steam them up with guilt and olive oil, I mean, kingdom fungi are more closely related to kingdom animalia than they are to plants. ..... I wander around after the rains gathering wild mushrooms in the mist; few city folk here dare to chance it, or even notice they exist. If anyone around my ridiculous circus of a life notices I'm gathering mushrooms from the abandoned fields and busy street sides, they might say: "Aren't you AFRAID of DEATHCAPS" I'm like, nope. Do mushrooms have moms and faces and feel pain? Are mushrooms on no-no lists, dear vegans, or am I awful?
  14. Thanks for that link!! I was looking for a clear definition, i.e. "a person is CR'd iff..." You're not going to get one . Go be a lab mouse . Sorry: that's just the best we can do. Happily, you seem to have quite correctly understood the issue. I've also just pinned a FAQ post: How Many Calories Should I Eat? What's My Goal Weight? What's My Setpoint? What "%CR" Am I?. So, no one will ever ask this question ever again :) . Sorry, but I'm asking a question ever again. In that helpful pinned FAQ, we aren't allowed to post follow ups, nor quote the original text, so I'll ask here. Michael writes in FAQ: "People starting CR would very much like to have definitive, hard-and-fast answers to these questions, and unfortunately, there just isn't any way to give one in free-living humans! No one can tell you the exact point at which you're "on CR" or what "%CR" you are. These are guidelines and principles for entering the "CR continuum."" Check. Understood. Guidelines and principles. Michael writes: "If you are lucky enough to have had a clear, healthy 'setpoint' in your youth — a weight to which you tended to gravitate when you were in your early twenties, and that was within the healthy BMI range — take that as your baseline, and restrict Calories down to a level that keeps you at least 15% below that." Check. In my early twenties I was within the healthy BMI range, and my current BMI fluctuates between 10% and 20% below that. That would seem to indicate CR. But I've always been an ectomorph, says my mom, even when you were a baby, she says, you looked like a spider monkey. All arms and legs. But even now, below weight from the early twenties, I'm not sure if I'm on CR or not. Not for reasons of sickness or overexercise, I'm indeed cutting calories. Michael writes: "Wherever you start from, you need to cut Calories. Ultimately, the goal is to keep Calories lower than your physiology 'thinks' it needs, and a level of Calorie intake that only normalizes an overweight body will simply return you to the historical norm for our species, not induce the anti-aging metabolic shift that characterizes CR." For background before my question: I've been more or less honestly measuring, weighing, and entering my daily diet into COM since 2010, so I'm going on nearly eight years of focused documentation. Recording what I eat and what I do not eat (e.g., "fasting" is programmed to record into COM as "zero" calories) has become a habit. So, tallying up "Trends" in COM, clicking on "Report" for "All Time" (in an iPhone app) the zero calorie days from fasting add up to bring down the totals. My all time food intake for the past nearly eight years is "1,806 kcal consumed" versus "2,040 kcal burned" or, roughly, I'm maybe around 10% CRed, which seems about right, at least if I go by body weight from early twenties to now. My question is probably unanswerable, but who better to ask than Michael, and I'm probably not even looking for a definitive answer, just guidelines and principles, remember, but I don't think I've seen this question asked before. I'm not practicing daily cutting of calories below my BMR, which is 2040 kcal. But I'm fasting -- longer fasts (8-10 days), medium fasts (5-8 days), short fasts (1-3 days), and all of that while also "intermittent fasting" (doing one meal per day, allowing 20-hours to elapse between refeedings). Yet when I refeed from fasts, I tend to go over my BMR. I don't "gorge" but I do tend to eat around 2,500 to 3,000 kcal for a few days, more like "controlled feasting" and I'm following the "optimal nutrition" part of the equation, if that matters, eating only plants, following a Mediterranean thing, and so most of my extra calories derive from olive oil, legumes, nuts, and seeds. Recently I've started eating sardines again, too, so I've transitioned for now away from my strict vegan and vegetarian past. No dairy or meat, though, but sometimes I eat a few cans of sardines. The question is -- if I'm not practicing CR during refeeding after fasts, but sometimes going over my daily calorie requirements, am I still practicing CR? The zero calorie days bring down the overall calorie intake -- even when I'm not practicing daily CR. Can CR be spaced out in time like this, or "should" it be daily CR practiced with daily consistency over long periods of time? Sorry to be so long winded.., Like I said, there probably isn't any answer in humans to this, but I'm throwing it out there anyway, to fellow humans, while we all wait for something better to emerge from clinical trials that aims to repair the damages caused by aging, rather than this "messing-with-metabolism" CR project that we're practicing. For me, fasting seems easier long term than daily CR because although I'm doing my best to measure, weigh, and document everything I eat, I assume I'm still getting numbers wrong. Food values aren't consistent. When I fast, I know for sure that I'm cutting calories to zero. When I eat, I'm only guessing.
  15. Hmm, I realize this is a thread about intermittent fasting, which I practice, so I apologize for the swing out. Me, I've no problem with the natural flows of conversation in online discussions, especially in dead zones like this one. Have you considered a Reddit AMA, Michael, you seem to know about AI's future impact on human aging, and it might be fun in a livelier setting? Meanwhile: In eight decades of completed work in animal studies (deep bow to the animals), what changes in which parameters are relevant to aging humans? Changes consistently seen for a given intervention between mouse and human are consistent with the intervention's translatability; those that aren't weigh against it. Animal studies obviously have been of historical use in medicine, as I noted above. So the suggestion isn't that we ditch all prior work or quit paying attention to current animal studies as foundational and practical contributions. Rather, the suggestion is that humans will keep looking for different ways to reduce suffering and improve life. Animal models have taken us to a point, and soon they'll drop off and become even more irrelevant than they already are, like your horse and buggy analogies in the Dr. de Grey book. AI will be medically useful during our lifetimes because it already is; dismissing it isn't what you're asserting. Nevertheless, about animal model translatability, you write: Because it is all we've got. It's not all we've got. Robotic surgeons, for example, are here and they're not going away. I must be misunderstanding you. First, it's false. That's interesting good news. I certainly don't see AI potentiality in dark and threatening movie tones -- eek, violent sci-fi films, I hate them. I'm excited about possibilities for AI's potential use in helping to solve not only human suffering and damage repair, but also in wider issues like ecosystem degradation, species extinction, alternative energy solutions, global climate change reversals, extraterrestrial travel... From the Snopes article you linked, this: "...We are in infant stages now, but I think we will subsume AI and make it part of ourselves; better to control it. Implanting neural nets, within our brains that are connected to it, etc. Now that raises all kinds of as yet unseen “have and have not” issues. But that’s another subject for another time." Gibberish isn't helpful, that's why the chatbotting gibberish was halted. AI won't stay stuck in place. The things must crawl before they walk, though, and before their usefulness to us unfurls. And they're already here anyway. I see absolutely no way for AI to tell us how to intervene in aging in a way that would preëpt animal testing. If you ask the AI of Oz how to retard aging in humans and it replies "take 1500 mg of extract of untested plant X and microdose cyanide daily," is any sensible person going to take it without first testing it in rodents? And where is the AI going to get its data, if not from rodent studies? Then you're not looking carefully enough. Are these opinions a general SENS position? No way, right? I mean, do SENS researchers see absolutely no way for future advances in AI to assist us in how to intervene in human aging? Of course preemptions of animal models won't occur until more intelligent models develop and mature. For example, eventually Google will map out every metabolic activity that occurs within your body. Probably static at first. Like an internal Google maps, they're already working on this part. Then progress will lead to dynamics, live, as in your own personal chemical reactions that are occurring within your own body right now, we see them now. It's hard for me to imagine that this isn't one of Calico's aims. Baby steps first, though, and they ain't talking publicly because why should they? Fruit ain't ripe. SENS ain't talking to us much, either, are y'all? AI helps with healthcare because we can feed into it data from clinical trials and healthcare registries for various clinical outcomes. This is already useful, and will become more so as more and more electronic medical record data becomes mineable. That will improve cancer care and other kinds of ordinary medicine, but it doesn't help us with aging, because we have no equivalent data for aging — except in rodents, and translational studies built up from rodents. Sure, we feed these things data from clinical trials and healthcare registries until they can think for themselves. They'll be doing that, thinking independey, and hopefully into the directions we steer them, as your Snopes link suggests. One direction we may steer AI is into the repair of aging-damaged human bodies. We'll do this because we must do this -- the trillions in healthcare costs from these aging damaged baby boomers will spur faster progress.
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