CRON and supplements

[AEN]

Good day, I have been practicing CRON the past few years, mostly reading the mailing list. I might not have been as strict/consequent with my diet as some of the other members practicing CRON though.

 

However, I've always wondered a bit whether as a vegan CRON-practitioner I should supplement some essential amino acids such as taurine, carnosine, carnitine, creatine. In general I followed some of the rules of thumb voiced several years ago in a presentation at a CR-conference (the presentation was called "The Art and Science of Supplementation", presented by Michael Rae). Amongst them: supplements can in fact hurt and try to get optimal nutrition from food rather than supplements, and supplement those items of which your intake is not optimal. And when possible guided by lab results. Which I tried (using the Cron-O-Meter to track my food intake).  

 

In addition, however, imho the past few years more and more research results seemed to contradict some of the expected benefits of a variety of supplements (indeed, supplements can hurt, it turned out at moments). Or it was suggested that a particular supplement might interfere with some of the potential benefits of CR. I remember a discussion in which there seemed to be some consensus that from a health/longevity perspective eating quite a bit of protein would likely be recommended (I believe this concerned the Albatros discussion) which I did eating protein powder, and later the overall opinion appeared to be that it would likely be more optimal to try to lower IGF-1 intake (as a study of L. Fontana indicated too, if I remember it correctly) - which, then, I tried to do too ;-). In other words: all in all I became more careful/cautious, and I am not sure anymore what to supplement and what not being a vegan, and not wanting to compromise potential CR benefits in any (unanticipated) way taking some specific supplements. After all the presentation I was referring to, is a decade old by now and a lot of new information might be available by now.

Would it be recommended to supplement taurine, carnosine, creatine, carnitine, (and what else) being a vegan CRON-practitioner, or not?

Many thanks for any reply.  

[Michael R]

Hi AEN, and welcome to the CR Society Forum!
 

In general I followed some of the rules of thumb [about supplements] voiced several years ago in a presentation at a CR-conference (the presentation was called "The Art and Science of Supplementation", presented by Michael Rae). Amongst them: supplements can in fact hurt and try to get optimal nutrition from food rather than supplements, and supplement those items of which your intake is not optimal. And when possible guided by lab results. Which I tried (using the Cron-O-Meter to track my food intake).

 
Obviously, I think that's good advice ;) . And I hope you're still using it!
 

In addition, however, imho the past few years more and more research results seemed to contradict some of the expected benefits of a variety of supplements (indeed, supplements can hurt, it turned out at moments).

I did highlight that fact in my earlier talk — and if anything, the picture on supplementation has gotten even bleaker in the intervening years, with many promising-looking supplements proving useless or even harmful for prevention of chronic disease or as an intervention in aging in otherwise-healthy people.
 

Or it was suggested that a particular supplement might interfere with some of the potential benefits of CR. I remember a discussion in which there seemed to be some consensus that from a health/longevity perspective eating quite a bit of protein would likely be recommended (I believe this concerned the Albatros discussion) which I did eating protein powder, and later the overall opinion appeared to be that it would likely be more optimal to try to lower IGF-1 intake (as a study of L. Fontana indicated too, if I remember it correctly) - which, then, I tried to do too ;-).

 
Correct. In the years subsequent to The Albatross (including Part II of The Albatross and its references), my views on protein intake for people on CR has changed quite substantially, and my own views are now much closer to Fontana's. And I hope you are succeeding in your attempt to implement such!
 

In other words: all in all I became more careful/cautious, and I am not sure anymore what to supplement and what not being a vegan, and not wanting to compromise potential CR benefits in any (unanticipated) way taking some specific supplements. After all the presentation I was referring to, is a decade old by now and a lot of new information might be available by now.

Would it be recommended to supplement taurine, carnosine, creatine, carnitine, (and what else) being a vegan CRON-practitioner, or not?

I would first note that there is a big difference between supplementing these nutrients at the relatively low levels required to make up for the absence of these nutrients in a vegan (vs. usual omnivorous) diet ant the megadose levels at which most of them are taken as supplements by most users.
 
Here is my current supplement regimen with extensive comments on the rationale behind my choices. Several years ago, I wrote a very lengthy article on supplementation for a vegan diet website that I had thought was up and available to his readership; it turns out that some issues I thought we had agreed on kept him from posting it, and so it's sat stillborn from my keyboard for over five years! I will post that shortly here on the Forums; I hope you find it useful.
 
The main thing that I would change today relates to endorsement of supplementation with carnitine. The evidence of benefit in ve(getari)ans is very very slim, and there is now reason to think that carnitine supplementation promotes atherosclerosis, even in people with low LDL levels. (The linked post is focused on choline, but carnitine also elevates TMA(O) production). Moreover, Spindler has found in unpublished results that  acetyl-L-carnitine supplementationn slightly shortens lifespan in normal mice,(1) and there's even a hint that suppression of plasma TMA(O) may be involved in the effects of CR, since  CR mice (and Ames dwarves, and the (weaker and more contested) Irs knockout mouse) all have lower levels of plasma TMA than wild-type AL mice.(1) So barring a very specific reason to do otherwise, I would just avoid it.
 
Reference
1.  J Proteome Res. 2012 Apr 6;11(4):2224-35. doi: 10.1021/pr2010154. Epub 2012 Feb 27.
Metabotyping of long-lived mice using 1H NMR spectroscopy.
Wijeyesekera A, Selman C, Barton RH, Holmes E, Nicholson JK, Withers DJ.

[AEN]

Thank you for the insightful reply, Michael Rae. I appreciate it that you took the time to write such a thorough response: that is certainly very helpful. And, yes, I am still using the advice given in aforementioned presentation ;-).

 

Good point of course with regard to mega-dosing vs dosing at low levels. I will look into your current regimen and rationale - thank you and also for the advice and studies concerning carnitine.

 

"Several years ago, I wrote a very lengthy article on supplementation for a vegan diet website that I had thought was up and available to his readership; it turns out that some issues I thought we had agreed on kept him from posting it, and so it's sat stillborn from my keyboard for over five years! I will post that shortly here on the Forums; I hope you find it useful!

 

Sounds great: I'm certainly looking forward to reading that!  Anne