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Cryonics Anyone?


Dean Pomerleau

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Hi Rodney!

 

I don't see any information about successful recovering of memories or anything else after freezing; just a popular press article about well-known details on the subject of which sections of the brain do what in creating and retrieving memories.  Freezing isn't discussed.

 

??

 

  -- Saul

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Rodney, thanks for the link. New to me, as well!

 

And Saul, like Rodney indicated, he was just trying to help us assess the odds of recovery. But more concrete evidence would be nice, to be sure. I'd like to see more animal studies done. Animals have been recovered in good shape after being so cold they're legally dead, but aren't frozen stiff, but has anyone tried getting a large-ish sized animal (a rodent, say) frozen stiff, and then brought it back to life in good shape?

 

Zeta

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But more concrete evidence would be nice, to be sure. I'd like to see more animal studies done. Animals have been recovered in good shape after being so cold they're legally dead, but aren't frozen stiff, but has anyone tried getting a large-ish sized animal (a rodent, say) frozen stiff, and then brought it back to life in good shape?

 

Well, its not a "large-ish sized animal", but I found this new study/experiment [1], sponsored and conducted in part by folks at Alcor, to be pretty encouraging.

 

First they trained C. Elegans worms to prefer the smell of a particular chemical, and indicate it by squirming to one region of a petri dish where the chemical concentration was high. Then they cryopreserved the worms either by rapid freezing or vitrification. Then they held them in cryonic suspension for up to two weeks (which is interesting, since the normal lifespan of these worms is about 2 weeks). Then they revived them and tested their memory.

 

In the rapid freezing protocol, they only were able to revive ~25% of the worms, but revival from the vitrification protocol was close to 100% successful.

 

The memory of both types of cryopreserved worms was statistically identical to the memory of worms that had been trained but not frozen.

 

It seems to me like a small, but very encouraging first step towards showing its possible to cryopreserve and then revive organisms with their "minds" intact.

 

--Dean

 

------------------------------------------------

[1] Rejuvenation Res. 2015 Apr 13. [Epub ahead of print]

Persistence of Long-Term Memory in Vitrified and Revived C. elegans.

 

Vita-More N(1), Barranco D.

 

Author information:

(1)University of Advancing Technology, Technology, Scottsdale, Arizona, United

States ; natasha@natasha.cc.

 

Free full text: http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/rej.2014.1636

Can memory be retained after cryopreservation? Our research has attempted to

answer this long-standing question by using the nematode worm Caenorhabditis

elegans (C. elegans), a well-known model organism for biological research that

has generated revolutionary findings but has not been tested for memory retention

after cryopreservation. Our study's goal was to test C. elegans' memory recall

after vitrification and reviving. Using a method of sensory imprinting in the

young C. elegans we established that learning acquired through olfactory cues

shapes the animal's behavior and the learning is retained at the adult stage

after vitrification. Our research method included olfactory imprinting with the

chemical benzaldehyde (C6H5CHO) for phase-sense olfactory imprinting at the L1

stage, the fast cooling SafeSpeed method for vitrification at the L2 stage,

reviving, and a chemotaxis assay for testing memory retention of learning at the

adult stage. Our results in testing memory retention after cryopreservation show

that the mechanisms that regulate the odorant imprinting (a form of long-term

memory) in C. elegans have not been modified by the process of vitrification or

by slow freezing.

 

PMID: 25867710

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Dear ALL,
 
The following article will appear in next month's Science News.
 
I suggest that all of you who are considering cryogenics -- or the possibility of surviving as a disembodied computer brain -- read this carefully.  Among other things, the article notes the intimate connection and relations between neurons and the three different types of glial cells in the brain.  E.g., timing of neronal signialling is crucial -- which in turn is strongly influenced by reactions in glial cells.
 
(I'm pleased to say that some of the basic research discussed in this article was done here at the University of Rochester -- some of the best brain research and cognitive science is done here.  :) ).
 
For those who want to try cryonics -- or moving their psyche into a robotic head -- in order to propel themselves into the future, when better life-extension techniques might be available, I would again stress that, IMO, research into implimenting workable hibrenation-mimicking techniques mightbe a far more plausible option.
 
(Having said that, my only interest in these subject is scientific.  So far, I'm very happy being a human guinea pig in only one major topic:  CRON.)
 
  -- Saul
 
P.S.:  Enjoy!
 
Feature
Rethinking which cells are the conductors of learning and memory
Brain cells called glia may be center stage when it comes to how humans learn and remember
By
10:35am, August 11, 2015
082215_glia_opener.jpg?itok=09DFQi35

SUPPORT SYSTEM  Neurons (blue) mingle with two kinds of glia: astrocytes (red) and oligodendrocytes (green) in this immunofluorescence microscopy image of rat hippocampal tissue.

Jonathan Cohen

A mouse scurries across a round table rimmed with Dixie cup–sized holes. Without much hesitation, the rodent heads straight for the hole that drops it into a box lined with cage litter. Any other hole would have led to a quick fall to the floor. But this mouse was more than lucky. It had an advantage — human glial cells were growing in its brain.

Glia are thought of as the support staff for the brain’s nerve cells, or neurons, which transmit and receive the brain’s electrical and chemical signals. Named for the Greek term for “glue,” glia have been known for nearly 170 years as the cells that hold the brain’s bits together. Some glial cells help feed neurons. Other glia insulate nerve cell branches with myelin. Still others attack brain invaders responsible for infection or injury. Glial cells perform many of the brain’s most important maintenance jobs.

But recent studies suggest they do a lot more. Glia can shape the conversation between neurons, speeding or slowing the electrical signals and strengthening neuron-to-neuron connections. When scientists coaxed human glia to grow in the brains of baby mice, the mice grew up to be supersmart, navigating tabletops full of holes and mastering other tasks much faster than normal mice. This experiment and others suggest that glia may actually orchestrate learning and memory, says neuroscientist R. Douglas Fields.

“Glia aren’t doing vibrato. That’s for the neurons,” says Fields, of the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development in Bethesda, Md. “Glia are the conductors.” They may be telling neurons when and where to send their signals and how loud those signals should be. Scientists are beginning to get a sense of how glia coordinate the brain’s intricate symphony of signals, Fields says.

Accepting glia’s role in learning and memory has been a gradual progression, says Andrew Koob, a neurobiologist at the University of Wisconsin–River Falls. Neuroscientists have been focused on neurons because neurons tend to be bigger than glial cells and their electrical signals have been easier to study. And much research on the brain’s information processing is focused on synapses, the communication junctions where chemical messages are passed between neurons.

Story continues below infographic

Sharing the spotlight
082215_glia_diagram_730.png
Oligodendrocytes (green) and astrocytes (red) are glial cells that influence the way chemical and electrical signals travel from neuron to neuron (blue) and may shape the way information is stored. A third type of glia, microglia (yellow), help protect the brain. 

Credit: E. Otwell

“The popularization and perception that the neuron is the only active cell type in the central nervous system is very pervasive. It is learned early on,” Koob says. “This leads into the long-held belief that learning and cognition are solely the domain of neurons.”

But even though neurons are often bigger, and definitely more famous, glia outnumber nerve cells in the brain. Glia come in three varieties: microglia, astrocytes and oligodendrocytes. Tiny microglia puff up and pounce on invaders that enter the brain, using chemical warfare to kill infiltrators, while devouring dead and dying cells. Microglia also prune and clear away unnecessary nerve cell connections (SN: 11/30/13, p. 22).

Astrocytes nestle some of their pointed projections against synapses, playing a role in how neurons make connections. Other astrocyte projections connect to nearby capillaries, helping to bring oxygen-rich blood to the neurons. The third glial class, oligodendrocytes, supports neurons by wrapping the neurons’ long, wiry fibers called axons in myelin, a fatty protective substance better known as the brain’s white matter. It may take several oligodendrocytes to cover one long axon with the myelin it needs.

Story continues below video

 

FLASHES OF LIGHT After glutamate is added, fluorescent waves ripple through a dish of astrocytes.

TheSmithlab's channel/YouTube

Beyond glue

Neuroscientists began to notice in the early 1990s that glia are more than just the support crew for neurons. A group of researchers including Stephen Smith, now at Stanford University, had a hunch that glia could communicate via chemical signals, as neurons do. Smith and his colleagues dribbled glutamate — a chemical messenger commonly used by neurons — into a dish containing astrocytes modified to glow when calcium levels go up. Where the drops hit, the cells immediately flashed. After a short delay, more cells flashed and waves of fluorescence moved through the dish. The glutamate was spurring astrocytes to release fluorescent-tagged calcium ions, signals that the glia were using to communicate, Smith’s team reported in Science in 1990.

Four years later, Maiken Nedergaard, now at the University of Rochester Medical Center in New York, showed that astrocytes not only talked among themselves using calcium signals, but also used the signals to communicate with neurons.

In the two decades since then, neuroscientists have been studying astrocytes and their signaling in various animals. Human astrocytes are 2.6 times longer than mouse astrocytes and move calcium-ion waves through the brain at speeds five times faster than rodent astrocytes do. Humans also have subtypes of astrocytes that don’t appear to exist in mouse and rat brains, Nedergaard and colleagues reported in 2009 in the Journal of Neuroscience. Interlaminar astrocytes, for example, extend long fibers through the cortex, the outer part of the brain, which is involved in higher thought processes such as learning, memory and creativity.

Shaping the brain

The three types of glia have different roles in the brain. When these cells don’t work properly, neurological disorders and diseases can result. 

Oligodendrocytes (green)
082215_glia_table_olig.jpg
  • Form myelin around neurons, substantially increase signal speed

  • Provide vital metabolic support for axons

  • Problems with these cells are implicated in multiple sclerosis, amyotrophic lateral sclerosis and inhibition of repair after spinal cord injury

Astrocytes (red and green)
082215_glia_table_astro.jpg
  • Wrap around synapses, influencing signaling and nerve birth and growth

  • Respond to injury by producing proteins

  • When dysfunctional, implicated in many neurological and psychiatric disorders, such as epilepsy and schizophrenia

Microglia (green)
082215_glia_table_micro.jpg
  • Travel and respond to nervous system injury and infection

  • Monitor electrical activity in neurons and prune synaptic connections

  • Their dysfunction is involved in almost all nervous system diseases and in certain psychiatric conditions, including obsessive-compulsive disorder

    Source: R.D. Fields/Nature 2013; Credit: R.D. Fields (top); Ulrika Wilhelmsson, Eric Bushong and Mark Ellisman (middle); Beth Stevens (bottom)

Based on differences in mouse and human astrocytes, Nedergaard and colleagues wondered if inserting human glia into mice would change the way mouse brains worked. It did.

Human glial progenitor cells placed in mouse brains multiplied and then matured into astrocytes. Over several months, newly developing human astrocytes started to replace the mice astrocytes. As the human astrocytes took over, the level of calcium signals in the brain increased threefold.

The mice with human cells also exhibited greater levels of long-lasting enhancement in neuron-to-neuron communication, suggesting that the human astrocytes were strengthening neuronal connections and communication. When tested on a battery of learning and memory tasks, such as identifying the safe hole on a circular table, the mice with human glial cells quickly outperformed their mouse-brained counterparts, the team reported in Cell Stem Cell in 2013 (SN: 4/6/13, p. 16).

Neuroscientists Robin Franklin and Timothy Bussey of the University of Cambridge argued in the same issue that the results offered compelling evidence that humans’ superior learning and memory skills are at least in part due to glia.

“This is a very sexy notion,” says Marc Freeman, a neurobiologist at the University of Massachusetts Medical School in Worcester. He cautions, though, that the biology of how these glial cells work is not completely clear. There may be other explanations for the results.

Freeman, who studies astrocytes in fruit flies, is searching for the genes that fly astrocytes rely on to nudge neurons’ electrical signals along or slow them down. If those genes are also found in mice and humans, that means they’ve been conserved across species, suggesting that the genes play an essential role in the brain, Freeman says. In flies, he and others are manipulating these genes to see exactly what they do and how they affect behavior and possibly learning and memory, he says. “We are on the cusp of the glia field becoming extremely interesting.”

Setting the pace

Astrocytes and oligodendrocytes may influence learning and memory by helping neurons keep their electrical signals flowing at a healthy rhythm. Groups of neurons fire electrical signals in rhythmic patterns called oscillations. A rhythm of roughly 25 to 80 pulses per second may be important for learning and memory, some studies indicate. Last year, an international team of researchers working with mice found that astrocytes’ release of brain chemicals, including glutamate, is essential to maintaining a rhythm of 25 to 60 surges per second. When scientists engineered mice so their astrocytes could not release glutamate and other brain chemicals, the rodents’ regular surges deteriorated. Without the oscillations, the mice spent less time than healthy mice exploring new objects, the researchers reported in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

Oligodendrocytes, on the other hand, may influence neuronal signaling rhythms via myelin rather than brain chemicals. Scientists first speculated that oligodendrocytes were important for learning and memory when MRI brain scans revealed structural changes in the myelin-wrapped white matter in children, teens and adults learning to play piano and in adults who learned to juggle. The jugglers’ brains showed increased white matter at the back of their right intraparietal sulcus — a crease at the back of the brain that helps with visually guided grasping of objects. Individuals who weren’t learning the new skill showed no changes.

Learning the wheel
082215_glia_graphs.png

Mice engineered so they could not make new oligodendrocytes (light green line) reached slower average (top) and  maximum (bottom) speeds running on an oddly runged wheel compared with engineered mice that could make new myelin-producing glia (dark green line). Asterisks show statistically significant differences.

View a video of mice running on oddly runged wheels

Source: I.A. McKenzie et al/Science 2014

As an adult learns a new skill like juggling, the brain may be churning out new oligodendrocytes, which then wrap extra myelin around the axons of the neuronal circuits being built. A recent study in mice supports the idea. Adult mice learning to run on a wheel with oddly spaced rungs made oligodendrocytes more quickly than mice with no wheel to run on. And engineered mice that could not make new oligodendrocytes were unable to master running on the more complex wheel, William Richardson of University College London and colleagues reported in Science in 2014. Adult brains in mice, and possibly in humans, need to make new glia and myelin to learn and remember, Richardson and colleagues argue.

Rethinking wrapping

Recent work by Fields and colleagues at NICHD suggests that oligodendrocytes may help the brain continually adapt to incoming information. When neurons in a lab dish aren’t firing, oligodendrocytes will wrap myelin around any of the neurons’ axons. But when sets of neurons start firing as a circuit, oligodendrocytes actively wrap myelin around the axons of firing neurons and snub the inactive nerve cells, Fields’ group reported August 4 in Nature Communications.

Myelin speeds the transmission time of electrical signals along axons. It takes a signal 30 milliseconds to cross from the left to the right side of the brain on myelinated axons. A similar signal takes about 300 milliseconds on un-myelinated axons. Slight changes in the thickness of myelin layers on axons may tweak the timing of the brain’s electrical signals just enough to bolster learning and memory or do damage, Fields and colleagues calculated.

Synchronizing these signals is essential to getting sets of neurons in different regions of the brain to fire at almost exactly the same time, a coordination that sets the foundation for brain circuits to store information. Delays shorter than even a millisecond could prevent a signal from arriving at exactly the right time, Fields and colleagues reported in Neuroscience in 2014. They suggest that signal delays can disrupt synchronization, something that may contribute to autism by destroying the consistency of brain rhythms. Certain rhythms are also slower in one region of the brain in individuals with schizophrenia, the researchers note. These and other data suggest that some neurological disorders may result from damaged glia rather than damaged neurons.

The weight of all this recent research has forced neuroscientists to rethink the hierarchy among cells in the brain. Glia are coming out of the shadows. Neurons and their synaptic connections might need to start sharing the spotlight.

“We’ve been stuck in the synapse for 150 years,” Fields says. “It’s time to move out to the enormous unexplored space that’s out there.”

RUNG MASTER After seven days of training, a healthy mouse that can make new oligodendrocytes appears to master running on an oddly runged wheel. After a similar length of training, a mouse not able to make new oligodendrocytes struggles to run at a regular clip. Credit: I. McKenzie et al/Science 2014

This article appeared in the August 22, 2015 issue of Science News with the headline, "Maestros of Learning and Memory: Glia prove to be more than the brain's maintenance crew."

Citations

A.H. Cornell-Bell et al. Glutamate induces calcium waves in cultured astrocytes: long-range glial signaling. Science. Vol. 247, January 26, 1990, p. 470.

M. Nedergaard. Direct signaling from astrocytes to neurons in cultures of mammalian brain cells. Science. Vol. 263, March 25, 1994, p. 1768.

N.A. Oberheim. Uniquely hominid features of adult human astrocytes. Journal of Neuroscience. Vol. 29, March 11, 2009, p. 3276. doi: 10.1523/JNEUROSCI.4707-08.2009.

X. Han et al. Forebrain engraftment by human glial progenitor cells enhances synaptic plasticity and learning in adult mice. Cell Stem Cell. Vol. 12, March 7, 2013, p. 342. doi: 10.1016/j.stem.2012.12.015.

H.S. Lee et al. Astrocytes contribute to gamma oscillations and recognition memory. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. Vol. 111, June 15, 2014, p. E3343. doi: 10.1073/pnas.1410893111.

J. Scholz. et al. Training induces changes in white matter architecture. Nature Neuroscience. Vol. 12, November 2009, p. 1370. doi:10.1038/nn.2412.

I.A. McKenzie. Motor skill learning requires active central myelination. Science. Vol. 346, October 17, 2014, p. 6207. doi: 10.1126/science.1254960. 

S. Pajevic. Role of Myelin Plasticity in Oscillations and Synchrony of Neuronal Activity. Neuroscience. Vol. 12, September 12, 2014, p 135. doi: 10.1016/j.neuroscience.2013.11.007.

R.D. Fields, D.H Woo and P.J. Basser. Glial Regulation of the Neuronal Connectome through Local and Long-Distant Communication. Neuron. Vol. 86, April 22, 2015, p. 374. doi: 10.1016/j.neuron.2015.01.014.

Further Reading

A. Yeager. ‘Brainbow’ illuminates cellular connections. Science News. Vol. 187, May 16, 2015, p. 32.

K. Baggaley. Shots of brain cells restore learning, memory in rats. Science News. Vol. 187, March 21, 2015, p. 13.

S. Gaidos. The Inconstant Gardener. Science News. Vol. 184, November 30, 2013, p. 22.

T.H. Saey. Mice get brain boost from transplanted human tissue. Science News. Vol. 183, April 6, 2013, p. 16.

 
 

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Saul,

 

Thanks for the article pointer. The brain is certainly a lot more complex than many people have imagined. But in my mind that doesn't eliminate or even substantially diminish the possibility of future success of mind uploading via cryonics / vitrification. In fact, the rapid progress being made by very smart neuroscientists at Rochester and many other institutions gives me hope that we will one day understand the way the brain works. It may take a long time, but as long as the preservation of the brain via cryonics / vitrification captures the brain structure (including astrocytes) in high enough fidelity, it should be possible - unless you subscribe to some kind of mind/body dualism.

 

--Dean

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Hi Dean!

 

I remember a Rabbi who taught at the Hebrew school that I went to on Sundays: His name was Rabbi Isaacs.  He frequently referred to an idiom, that I've never heard anyone else use.  It was supposed to be used frequently in ancient times:  Person A (who might be a king or profit or something like that) would say "I shall accomplish task X";  Person B would respond: 

 

"The grass shall grow on your cheeks, and still task X shall not be done".

 

Dean, need I say more?

 

Except that, in this case, IMO, "The grass shall have long grown and died on all of our cheeks (and perhaps those of all humanity) -- and still the task that you seek shall not be done."

 

:)

 

  -- Saul

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Except that, in this case, IMO, "The grass shall have long grown and died on all of our cheeks (and perhaps those of all humanity) -- and still the task that you seek shall not be done."

 

I think your analogy breaks down in the following way Saul. We don't need to solve the problem before we die to at least have a chance of living forever. If smart scientists can solve the problem of preserving detailed brain structure before we die, whether they understand it or not, there is then the possibility that some future (human or posthuman) intelligence will figure out how the brain works and be able to reconstruct or emulate the intellect/consciousness from the brain/body so preserved.

 

Whether they'll have the incentive to do so is another question, but at least it would create the possibility.

 

Also, I'm very much in favor of pursuing the hibernation path you mention. But I'm skeptical that will be able to extend lifespan more than a decade (maybe a couple decades). IMO, something more revolutionary is going to be required to achieve radically extend lifespan - certainly to achieve radically longer and high quality lifespan. Maybe hibernation (plus CR) will buy enough time for people in middle age today to be around and reasonably healthy when humanity reaches Aubrey's longevity escape velocity, but I expect the intricacies of the aging process to be a tough nut for Aubrey and others like him to crack.

 

Hopefully detail-preserving cryonics / vitrification will be an option in a couple decades in case it takes until well into the next century to solve the problem of aging, or in case true stopping / reversing of aging isn't even possible for biological humans.

 

--Dean

 

P.S. Day 2 with my recumbent bike desk has gone very well - I'm composing this while pedalling.

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Hi again Dean!

 

I guess you misunderstood me.  The "task" that I was referring to is:  "If smart scientists can solve the problem of preserving detailed brain structure before we die, whether they understand it or not".

 

Also, another fundamental flaw in your reasoning:  "whether they understand it or not".

 

I'm a pure mathematician.  Pure mathematicians solve problems that are very abstract -- they often look meaningless except to other very abstract mathematicians.  It's only after an abstract theory is very well developed, before engineers (or physicists, or applied mathematicians) find applications -- often incredibly useful.  A reasonably good example:  Riemann studied Riemanian geometry,and differential geometry.  Useless in his day -- then, in the 20th century, Einstein used differential geometry to develop his Theory of Relativity.

 

You have to understand something before you can duplicate it.

 

Dean, scientists (or engineers -- or hucksterers -- )  are not going to preserve detailed brain structure, without knowing what it is.

 

The Science News article that I sent you gives you enough information to know that the brain isn't just a bunch of linked neurons that connect or disconnect with synapses and thru neurochemicals -- three other cell types are intimately involved in all processes.

 

And of course, that's just the tip of the iceberg.  Our endocrine system and other body parts -- highly interconnected in ways that we don't understand -- are involved with functioning of the brain, as well.  (And the, IMO, illusion of your "consciousness" probably is fabricated of a lot more than just brain circuits.)

 

Dean, you, I, our children, Aubrey, and all of their descendants, are going to die.

 

It doesn't mean that Aubrey's research is worthless -- quite the contrary.  Usable rejuvenation technology will probably be developed, through his organization and others.  Biology, Medical Science and possibly other disciplines will continue to extend our lifespan and healthspan. 

 

But of course, CR remains our strongest tool for life extension and health extension.  If you're going to donate money, donate it to the CRSociety.

 

:)

 

  -- Saul

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You have to understand something before you can duplicate it.

 

Granted. But we're not taking about duplication here. We're talking about preservation. You can preserve something without understanding how it works. Consider embryos. Human embryos can be stored for at least 13 years (and perhaps much longer) and later brought to term. Do you think we understand even a tiny fraction of how a human embryo works?

 

Dean, scientists (or engineers -- or hucksterers -- )  are not going to preserve detailed brain structure, without knowing what it is.

 

That's another silly argument. Of course they are. People working on brain preservation and brain imaging as we speak fully realize they don't know how the brain works, and are developing techniques to image and preserve as much detail as possible, including the glial cells your article discusses. Have you seen their latest videos? Check it out:

 

http://www.popsci.com/brain-finally-multicolor

 

Note - the technique they use (albeit on only a small part of a mouse brain - see paper in Cell here) is exactly the vitrification technique that is most promising for whole brain preservation. First you fix the brain with chemicals to preserve its detailed structure, then you cut it up into thousands of incredibly thin slices, which you scan with an electron microscope and then perform 3D reconstruction via automated, vision-based structure tracking across slices.

 

Dean, you, I, our children, Aubrey, and all of their descendants, are going to die.

 

You are probably right Saul, and least when it comes to you, me and Aubrey - although it is a bit of defeatist attitude which I choose not to completely accept. Our kids and descendants stand a better chance of never having to die. But with brain preservation technology, dying isn't necessarily permanent. That's the whole idea.

 

 

 

But of course, CR remains our strongest tool for life extension and health extension.

 

Given its track record in higher animals, CR alone seems somewhat disappointing, IMO.

 

 

If you're going to donate money, donate it to the CRSociety.

 

At this point, while the community aspect of the CR Society is nice (although pretty darn sparse at the moment...) and worth supporting, as far as I can see (sadly) there is very little activity ongoing or planned on the part of the CR Society wrt advancing our understanding of CR's impact on human aging and longevity. I'd love to be proven wrong on this point, and if so perhaps someone (Michael or Brian?) with more insights into the CR Societies activities / agenda can correct me.

 

--Dean

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Hi again, Dean!

 

Although somewhat off topic, having mentioned pure mathematics and life extension, you might be amused by the following (true) anecdote:

 

Perhaps the greatest logician of all time was Kurt Goedel:  Among other things, he wrote axioms for set theory (entirely in symbolic logic), and proved that, if the basic axioms of set theory are consistent, then adjoining the Axiom of Choice and the Continuum Hypothesis still leaves a consistent system.  (This is in his book, "Consistency of the Continuum Hypothesis").

 

He was made a Professor at the Institute for Advanced Study, in Princeton.

 

The relevant part of this note starts here:

 

Goedel had a life threatening disease.  It was necessary for him to undergo an operation to save his life.  The operation required general anaesthesia.  Goedel noted that, from the many times it had been performed on people, it was well known that one would recover from general anaesthesia, with no apparent damage.

 

But, reasoned Goedel, what if you lost 1% of your intelligence?  There would be no known way of measuring this.  Goedel valued his intellect above all things.  He refused the operation, and died.

 

:wacko:

 

Now, I  certainly don't agree with Goedel's philosophy.  In fact, I just had my second colonoscopy today, under general anaesthesia.  (My first was a little over 10 years ago.  As in the case of my first colonoscopy, it was perfect -- no polyps or any other bad thing.)

 

My point is, that it is a good thing to accept one's mortality, and go on to enjoy -- and extend as much as possible -- our lifespan and healthspan.

 

  -- Saul

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But of course, CR remains our strongest tool for life extension and health extension.

 

Dean: Given its track record in higher animals, CR alone seems somewhat disappointing

If you're going to donate money, donate it to the CRSociety.

 

Dean: At this point, while the community aspect of the CR Society is nice (although pretty darn sparse at the moment...)

 

Saul: I agree with you on that.  I think that we'd get much more participation if we still had the Lists.  It would be nice to simply have the Lists, with a maximum of 50 posts per person -- perhaps with a third List as well, restricted to Al Pater, who could post as much as he wants on the third list.

 

Dean: as far as I can see (sadly) there is very little activity ongoing or planned on the part of the CR Society wrt advancing our understanding of CR's impact on human aging and longevity.

 

Saul:  Michael has been seeking longtime CR practitioners for a study on CR and freedom of movement -- I don't think that enough people have signed up yet.  IMO, it's because the Forums aren't read by enough people -- that would not be a problem if we had CR mailing Lists again -- and we'd get back a lot of List contributors -- e.g., Richard Schulman (who attended the last CR Conference).

 

Saul: Also, it would be nice if the next CR Conference came 1.5 years after the last -- it looks likeit will be about 3 years after.

 

:(

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[Mathematician Kurt] Goedel had a life threatening disease.  It was necessary for him to undergo an operation to save his life.  The operation required general anaesthesia.  Goedel noted that, from the many times it had been performed on people, it was well known that one would recover from general anaesthesia, with no apparent damage.

 

But, reasoned Goedel, what if you lost 1% of your intelligence?  There would be no known way of measuring this.  Goedel valued his intellect above all things.  He refused the operation, and died.

 

Saul, where did you hear that story? Every source I can find says he starved himself to death. At has death he weighed 65lbs (BMI of 10.5). Pretty ironic given the focus of this forum...

 

My point is, that it is a good thing to accept one's mortality, and go on to enjoy -- and extend as much as possible -- our lifespan and healthspan.

 

I can certainly agree with the second half of this statement - its good to enjoy and extend our lifespan and healthspan.  But can you explain exactly why you think it is good to accept one's mortality? Can't one enjoy one's life and still hope for & work towards avoiding (permanent) death? Where would we be if the Wright brother's resigned themselves to the limitation of riding their bikes everywhere, rather than inventing powered flight?  :)

 

Certainly if one obsesses over one's mortality that can interfere with enjoying the here and now. But hope and a certain degree of optimism can also enhance one's quality of life, even if based on a long-shot, or even if the hope is misplaced. Plus we'll never know what is possible unless we try. The Serenity Prayer seems like a good blueprint to live by:

 

"Grant me the serenity to accept things I cannot change, the strength to change things that I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."

 

Whether human mortality is something that can or can't be changed is (IMO) an open question, but giving up on the possibility seems to me to be premature given the rapid progress being made in research into longevity, neuroscience, brain imaging and cryonics. Its fine to be skeptical, but flat out denying the (perhaps remote) possibility seems to me to be anti-scientific.

 

--Dean

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Despite Saul pessimism  ;), it appears that rapid progress is occurring towards the goal of whole brain preservation, even in the two months since this thread was started. Here are some details from the latest update on the efforts of one of the teams competing for the Brain Preservation Prize.

 

The technique is called "aldehyde-stabilized cryopreservation". It is a two step process. First, glutaraldehyde is used to fix structures in the brain in place, which is apparently the standard process of preparing brain tissue for electron microscopic evaluation.  

 

Within a few minutes of starting [gluta]aldehyde perfusion almost all of the normal biological decay processes are stopped and after an hour of [gluta]aldehyde perfusion the brain has been stabilized sufficiently such that it can sit for days at room temperature without significant change

 

Subsequently the brain is perfused with a cryoprotective agent (CPA) to eliminate ice formation even when the brain’s temperature is lowered to -130 degrees C for long-term storage.

 

Apparently it works like a charm. To quote from the update:

 

[The researchers have] now tested this procedure on several whole rabbit and pig brains -each whole brain being perfused intact (in the skull) with glutaraldehyde followed by CPA. The whole brains were then stored in a freezer at -135 degrees C. The brains were rewarmed, CPA washed out, and selected regions were prepared for electron microscopic evaluation. [The team] has sent us many dozens of these electron micrographs and they show a stunning degree of ultrastructure preservation across the entire brain [my emphasis].

 

...

 

Does this aldehyde-stabilized cryopreservation procedure meet the requirements of the Brain Preservation Prize? It is too early to tell, but if the results we have seen so far hold up the answer would be a resounding yes!

 

When they say "stunning degree of ultrastructure preservation", they don't just mean making sure to pick up all the individual synapses, along with Saul's glial cells. They say:

 

The initial perfusion of glutaraldehyde is almost instantly effective in stopping cellular decay and locks crucial molecules like ion channels and receptor proteins in place.

 

That's right, they are preserving freakin' ion channels and receptor proteins embedded in the membranes of brain cells. It seems unlikely that preserving these details will be necessary (except perhaps in a statistical sense) to capture what about the brain makes us who we are, but who knows - better to err on the side of capturing more details rather than less, since the superfluous information can always be thrown out later if unnecessary.

 

Who knows when/if Aubrey and his team will conquer aging in living organisms, but I'm becoming more convinced that within the next couple decades, cryopreservation techniques will be available that will preserve brain structure with sufficient detail and fidelity to offer a reasonable chance of accurate whole brain emulation and therefore (presumably) the restoration of consciousness when computers (inevitably?) get fast enough and models of neural processing get good enough to simulate the working brain in silicon.

 

We live in exciting times.

 

--Dean

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Hi Dean!

 

Some people die happily, believing they'll go to heaven.

 

Others expect the company of 40 virgins.  :)

 

Others will wake with with Aubrey's perfected immortality procedures.

 

However you die, if you believe in something (frozen brain slices and Aubrey's research?),

you'll die happily.

 

More power to you!

 

:)

 

  -- Saul

 

P.S.:  I hope to have the pleasure of the company of you and your family at the next CR conference --  wherever and whenever that might be.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi again Dean!

 

Regarding Goedel:  Your observation -- that Goedel died of starvation --- is not inconsistent with my description -- that Goedel died because of being unwilling to undergo general anasthesia for an operation.

 

The information that I have is well-known in the mathematical community -- it is not widely publicized, out of respect for Goedel.

 

When Goedel died, and for quite a few years before that, he was a permanent member on the faculty of the Institute for Advanced Study, in Princeton, NJ.   IAS members are very well payed.  They are unlikely to starve due to poverty.  Evidently, Goedel needed to undergo an operation, to avoid starvation -- possibly to remove a tumor in his gut or elsewhere in the digestive tract.  But, whatever the reason for the needed operation, as I noted, he was unwilling to undergo general anasthesia, since he feared that he might lose, perhaps, "1% of his intelligence".

 

  -- Saul

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The information that I have is well-known in the mathematical community -- it is not widely publicized, out of respect for Goedel.

 

If true, its too bad your explanation is kept so secret. Such dedication to his craft of mathematics that he'd be willing to gamble his life and die of starvation rather than risk impairing his intelligence is totally irrational, but it is still more flattering than the prevailing explanation, which is that he simply went nuts and starved himself to death out of fear of being poisoned when his wife (who cooked all his meals) was incapacitated.

 

--Dean

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Hi Dean!

 

He wasn't gambling his life -- rather, he was unwilling to gamble what he thought might be 1% of his intelligence.

 

Goedel was a peculiar man; brilliant, but peculiar.

 

E.g., he threw someone (a friend of my older brother's) out of one of his classrooms -- that person later won the Field's Medal.  Actually, IMO, Goedel was more deserving of the Field's medal -- but he never received it.

 

:(

 

  -- Saul

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Back to the topic of this thread (cryonics), here is the most impressive video (3min) I've seen yet of a dense reconstruction of (mouse) brain tissue from a vitrified sample:

http://aeon.co/video/psychology/neuroscience-crammed-with-connections-complex-neural-mapping/

As the video says, it won't be easy to scale this up to the entire human brain, but it is a pretty compelling proof of concept that the full richness and complexity of neural tissue can be captured and analyzed using existing technology.

Dean

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