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Sthira,

 

I do worry some about you and your fasting habit - particularly since it sounds like you're fairly socially isolated in the real world.

 

But I tremendously admire your willingness to experiment, listen to your body, and candidly share your results. This is a time I really wish Tim C would enable the post rating and starring system they've got activated over on Longecity.org. I know you are very familiar with it, but for those who aren't, you can choose from a wide range of ratings to give a post.

 

Here is a screen capture of all the options:

zhx133G.png

 

They represent, in order from left to right:

  1. Good Point
  2. Informative
  3. Cheerful
  4. Well-written
  5. Well-researched
  6. Like
  7. Enjoying the show
  8. Needs references
  9. Unsure
  10. Disagree
  11. Dislike
  12. Ill-informed
  13. Off-topic
  14. Dangerous, irresponsible
  15. Pointless, time-waster
  16. Unfriendly

If I could award any of these to your latest post, it would be the highlighted ones, with special emphasis given to #7 and only modest weight given to #14, given your extensive experience with EWOFing. 

 

I think it would be so cool if we could have this sort of rating system (even greatly simplified) available here. It should (easily?) be possible, given these forums and Longecity.org use the same IP.Board software package. I'll start a members only thread and ping Tim C. about it.

 

--Dean

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I'm not that socially isolated. I do push people away, but this is mostly because I don't enjoy what most people around me enjoy: party, party, party. If I could find healthier people, I would.

 

And I worry that my posts are indeed dangerous and irresponsible. That's why I say don't follow me, I'll lead you down a jungle path that you may not enjoy.

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EWOFing

Best word ever.

 

It does have a nice, primal sound to it, doesn't it! Seems quite appropriate, especially given your description of your fasting experiences, and your current profile pic!

 

Which reminds me, I love your latest profile photo, and more generally you're willingness to take the trouble to find and rotate through cool profile pictures like this. It really enriches the forum experience - I never know what Sthira will 'look like' next!

 

--Dean

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Guest Mitchell

Acting as surrogate for the highly educated among you, stop it self-destructor!  Seek help.

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Acting as surrogate for the highly educated among you, stop it self-destructor! Seek help.

Hmm. I'm assuming this is directed at moi?

 

Dear higher than highly educated surrogate (Um, dopey I had to look up the definition since I didn't know what "surrogate" meant, so maybe your post isn't directed at moi?)

 

Meanwhile, oh mystery, what sort of help shall I seek? Directions to the pharmaceutical station?

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Day 2, doing great leaving food out of my complicated system again. Next stop is day 3. I'll extend another out fast past 4th July when everyone else is plastered. There's something satisfying about giving up normalcy, a price to pay, too, I'll pay, I'm aware, I don't mind going down in it again, it's part of what it means to be human:

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Here's an interesting piece on fasting and euphoria. It's ten-years old, the article, and I wonder if anything new has been learned?

 

The ketone, beta-hydroxybutyrate, and its similarity to gamma-hydroxybutyrate, or GBH, which is an abuse drug I've never tried, but may help explain why fasting becomes addictive. I'm watching fasting addiction in myself -- EWOFing (I term I like which Dean coined). I'm not anorexic yet with BMI 18. This is oldie but goodie:

 

http://moodfoods.com/dieting/fasting.pdf#page3

 

I'm on day three, and definitely feeling very high emotions like well-being, euphoria, and big nice positive energy. Maybe I'll go five days, maybe not. I won't go longer because I must dance and get too dizzy and weak for all that noise. What goes up must come down, of course, and so my lows equal highs. I like the process, the highs more than the lows, of course, in yoga words: chitta vriti: https://blog.yogaglo.com/2013/11/the-language-of-yoga-chitta-vritti/

 

Here's the abstract from the study: http://moodfoods.com/dieting/fasting.pdf#page3

 

Low-carb diets, fasting and euphoria: Is there a link between ketosis and gamma-hydroxybutyrate (GHB)?

 

Brown AJ. Med Hypotheses. 2007.

 

Abstract

Anecdotal evidence links the initial phase of fasting or a low-carbohydrate diet with feelings of well-being and mild euphoria. These feelings have often been attributed to ketosis, the production of ketone bodies which can replace glucose as an energy source for the brain. One of these ketone bodies, beta-hydroxybutyrate (BHB), is an isomer of the notorious drug of abuse, GHB (gamma-hydroxybutyrate). GHB is also of interest in relation to its potential as a treatment for alcohol and opiate dependence and narcolepsy-associated cataplexy. Here I hypothesize that, the mild euphoria often noted with fasting or low-carbohydrate diets may be due to shared actions of BHB and GHB on the brain. Specifically, I propose that BHB, like GHB, induces mild euphoria by being a weak partial agonist for GABA(B) receptors. I outline several approaches that would test the hypothesis, including receptor binding studies in cultured cells, perception studies in trained rodents, and psychometric testing and functional magnetic resonance imaging in humans. These and other studies investigating whether BHB and GHB share common effects on brain chemistry and mood are timely and warranted, especially when considering their structural similarities and the popularity of ketogenic diets and GHB as a drug of abuse.

 

PMID 17011713 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

Since the article is ten years old, I'm regressing musically as well, back about oh ten years (well, ok only 2009 which seems like much, much longer ago, doesn't it?) and so Animal Collective is my official band for this fast because I love em:

 

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Fast Day 4: I'm in ketosis now because I can taste it in my mouth, that rotting fruit heat-stench that drives me into more head hanging shyness.

 

But I feel on top of the world, and My Brightest Diamond, oh she's just so unimaginably sweet and good and quirky and profound and I love her dearly:

 

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Sthira,

 

The alarm on my "Sthira death watch" clock went off this morning I realized it's been a few days since your last (day 4) update about your current fast. Are you still fasting or by today (Day 7) have you returned to the world of the eating? How did it go / is it going?

 

--Dean

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Sthira,

 

The alarm on my "Sthira death watch" clock went off this morning I realized it's been a few days since your last (day 4) update about your current fast. Are you still fasting or by today (Day 7) have you returned to the world of the eating? How did it go / is it going?

 

--Dean

Thanks for your friendliness, Dean. I stopped at day 4; doing great; every fast is different; but my weight feels too low: BMI is around 18 as I refeed it back up. Meanwhile, I wish longevity science was more progressive, until then, more unicorns:

 

"What About Fasting?"

 

http://www.totalhealthmagazine.com/Anti-Aging/Caloric-Restriction-Fasting-and-Nicotinamide-Riboside.html

 

Getting caloric restriction right and practicing it over the long term can present a challenge. How much is enough, how much is too much, for whom and under what conditions? Should total calories be restricted, total carbohydrates, fats, protein, which aspects of protein, and so on? Clearly, a workable alternative to caloric restriction is needed, albeit even without practicing such restrictions it always is an option to reduce consumption of sugars and refined carbohydrates. Fortunately, yet another age-old practice, fasting, apparently can be employed to deliver at least some of the benefits of caloric restriction. Significantly, the proposed mechanism of action is…a reduction in IGF-1, just as in caloric restriction!

 

In fact, fasting in 2014 received very important scientific backing as a means to improve some key factors that typically decline with age. The headline on June 5, 2014 at ScienceDaily ran, “Fasting triggers stem cell regeneration of damaged, old immune system.” On June 6, Medical News Today headlined, “Prolonged fasting ‘re-boots’ immune system.” Similar headlines were still appearing in December. Clearly, this research is considered to be important.

 

Indeed it is. The scientists involved described their own findings in the following terms: “prolonged fasting reduces circulating IGF-1 levels and PKA [protein kinase A] activity in various cell populations…Multiple cycles of fasting abated the immunosuppression and mortality caused by chemotherapy and reversed age-dependent myeloid-bias in mice, in agreement with preliminary data on the protection of lymphocytes from chemotoxicity in fasting patients.” Importantly, these benefits could be blunted by giving endogenous IGF-1.12 Another set of researchers came to the same conclusions, i.e., “the loss of HSC [hematopoietic stem cells] function in the elderly (“immunosenescence”) is a major source of morbidity and mortality…These effects are at least partially mediated by lowered insulin-like growth factor-1 levels in the blood and stem cell microenvironment….” 13 Prolonged fasting for both sets of authors means 72 hours in mice, although perhaps four to five days may be more beneficial in humans. Nevertheless, 72 hours in a clinical trial was sufficient to deliver key benefits: “the results from a phase I clinical trial indicate that 72 but not 24 hr of PF in combination with chemotherapy were associated with normal lymphocyte counts and maintenance of a normal lineage balance in WBCs [white blood cells].” 14 The chief caveats are that those who are quite old or in weakened health would need to exercise caution and perhaps medical supervision.

 

Will fasting three to five days once a year to perhaps a few times a year lead to many of the same benefits as caloric restriction? The effects on insulin and IGF-1 are dramatic, yet the experiments have not been performed over a period of years as is true with the CR primate trials, hence the final impact on longevity is not proven. A good bet would be “yes,” but not if one returns to a bad diet built around excessive and/or empty calories between fasts.

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1.@Dean, you mentionned about a mice study concetrning TRF that :" they did was divide mice into four groups ....Normal chow fed in a Time restricted window (8h during the dark period) (NT) "

 

It reminds me that Ramadan fasting is a Time Restricted feeding  with feeding allowed only during the night with usually 2 meals.

Indeed, the associated fasting state can last from 8-9h to 18h in summer at least in France because the month of Ramadan changes a little every year because it follows a lunar calendar.

 

Also I have read the paper named "Effect of intermittent fasting on circadian rhythms in mice depends on feeding time". This one mentioned that "food given during the daytime disrupted clock gene expression whereas food given during the nighttime yielded normal rhythms"

Also Professor Longo wrote a paper about circadian rhythms and TR feeding. Mercola mentioned that during intermittent fasting, the ideal biologial feed time is at night but without references.

 

So do you have more information about the ideal & evidence-based feeding time for humans during fasting?

 

2. Water restriction & Lifespan: I have another question. I have read the benefits of calorie restriction, protein restriction & even specific amino acid restriction, ideal protein:carbs ratio for lifespan in mice and so on. But nothing about water restriction on lifespan expect on a insect(i forgot the name of specie, sorry), & only a small experiment of a guy on youtube claiming that the 2 water restricted rats lived longer that the control group. Do you have more information about that aspect that I may have missed during my reading and web research ? Dry fasting versus water-based fasting ?

Edited by tasbin

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Tasbin,

 

You need to be careful. Night of a rodent is their active period for rodents, while it is the natural rest period for humans. So rodents subjected to TRF eat most of their food within a couple hours the onset of night, after "waking up" from dormancy during the day. This would be the human equivalent of eating a big breakfast, as I pointed out in that post you linked to.

 

If James Cain were here, he'd be a good person to ask about circadian rhythms and how they relate to eating and metabolism. He gave a great talk on the subject at the recent Conference. But here are three references [1][2][3] that confirm that humans have better insulin sensitivity and glucose tolerance in the morning compared with afternoon or evening.

 

Regarding water restriction, I did a cursory search of Pubmed for "water restriction" where wasn't much. I couldn't find any lifespan studies of rodents comparing water restriction or "time restricted drinking" to ad lib access to water.

 

--Dean

 

----------------------

  1. Whichelow MJ, Sturge RA, Keen H, Jarrett RJ, Stimmler L, Grainger S: Diurnal variation in response to intravenous glucose. BMJ 1:488–491, 1974 Abstract/FREE Full Text
  2. Lee A, Ader M, Bray GA, Bergman RN: Diurnal variation in glucose tolerance: cyclic suppression of insulin action and insulin secretion in normal-weight, but not obese, subjects. Diabetes 41:742–749, 1992 Abstract/FREE Full Text
  3. Carroll KF, Nestel PJ: Diurnal variation in glucose tolerance and insulin secretion in man. Diabetes 22:333–348, 1973 Abstract/FREE Full Text

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Hello, I am just now at day 5 of the Longo FMD diet. I have not bought the prolon products (they are not distributed outside USA for the moment) but I have tried to adhere to the same calorie content and macronutrients of prolon and provided in the studies published by Longo.  (an open question for me is how to follow also the micronutrients content of the original FMD diet. This time I have used Cronometer to set the BMR to the calorie requested and to include also the recipes I have taken mainly from Josh' blog.)

I have to say that it has been a better experience of my previously water only fasting of 5 days, I was able this time to live normally, to keep up with the kids, even if I felt sometimes weaker.

 I think I will repeat the experience in the future.

all the best

Cloud

Edited by Cloud

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Sthira,

 

Perhaps you've mentioned it.  But what do you do for work? I like the idea of fasting but it seems quite difficult to fit in with my work and schedule, and also hard because I'm chasing young kids around my house all day long.  

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Satchin Panda just finished me off with 4 devastating words, which were "No coffee or tea".

 

Recently I switched full throttle to 16/8 Time Restricted Feeding, but apparently every kind of drink, except for pure water, wakes all sorts of clocks in your body, when drinking outside your eating period.

 

I'm referring to this super interesting and informative talk of his (he specifically answers this question during Q&A at 36:30):

 

 

Even fracking green tea without sugar is supposedly off limits !!!

 

Folks, this is really not good news.

Edited by The Observer

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Observer,
Don't forget that he is looking through the lens of "Circadian rhythm". So Coffee or tea indeed affects it.
But if you switch the lens to fasting, I believe that zero-calorie beverages are OK.
 

Edited by Danielovich

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Fwiw, I just wrapped a ten-day water-only fast which left me feeling weak and uninspired to leave my dark bed. My black cat stared at me for hours, days, nearly a week I rested under her wide green-eyed surveillance. So I think I'll switch over to intermittent fasting, maybe eat today, fast tomorrow, eat, fast, eatfast, eatfasteatfasteatfas. Oh & I'm digging the writing of Jason Fung, but he's harsh on CR peeps:

 

https://intensivedietarymanagement.com

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Thanks, but it's honestly not that difficult once I accept a few rules. The more important question to me is -- is this self-experiment of many fasts healthy for my body? In total for 2016 I've fasted for 62 days -- mostly short 3, 4, 5 days fasts. Ten was the longest. No wait: I did twelve days back in June. But I've no idea if this is good for me, and judging by my often low moods and terrible writing on this site, I'm not suggesting anyone follow my path. But between fasts I only eat non-processed whole plant foods, and I'm mostly vegan with the exception of my leather periodical table pants belt and cream in coffee (which I've decided to eliminate (again...))

Edited by Sthira

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Sthira, I've discovered everything tastes better after a short fast.  But 10 days followed by a leather belt seems extreme.  Hopefully it was made from organic untanned leather.

Edited by Todd Allen

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Thanks, but it's honestly not that difficult once I accept a few rules. The more important question to me is -- is this self-experiment of many fasts healthy for my body? In total for 2016 I've fasted for 62 days -- mostly short 3, 4, 5 days fasts. Ten was the longest. No wait: I did twelve days back in June. But I've no idea if this is good for me, and judging by my often low moods and terrible writing on this site, I'm not suggesting anyone follow my path. But between fasts I only eat non-processed whole plant foods, and I'm mostly vegan with the exception of my leather periodical table pants belt and cream in coffee (which I've decided to eliminate (again...))

 

62/365= 0.17 = 17% of the years spent fasting.... I'd say it would be not much for an obese persone, or someone with very specific reasons to fast.

 

Now, if you are lean and practice an healthy vegan diet, as per Valter Longo's suggestion, it would suffice 2 or 3 fasts max (5-days duration) per year. From the standpoint of longevity and health, that would grant you an excellent degree of regeneration of the immune system and a pretty thorough cleansing (again, by Longo's research)

 

I wish I had your determination and be able to follow such a schedule. What I'm going to do instead is to practice Longo's Fast mimicking diet. Total fast is better though.

 

If you want to overshoot you might do one 5 days fast and a longer one, 10 days max, throughout a year.

 

That's my view, we all know even a good thing can be overdone.

Edited by mccoy

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Hi Cloud, I discovered that you probably are living not very far from where where I live in Italy, strange to come across another Italian in such a niche forum like this one. I saw the pictures of the Sognamondo camping site you linked in another thread, I drove by that place quite a few times and that's a pretty attractive site, in between the lagoon and the open sea.

I already read the obesity code from Dr. Fung, maybe I'm going to read the IF book as well. 

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