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Dried fruit, high fructose, and meal ordering

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What is the sentiment on dried fruit?  These have greater fructose to sucrose ratios (bad), yet may confer advantages as well. 

 

For those who do consume meals with significant fructose, with the higher fructose load, are there established benefits from having it earlier or later in the meal - i.e., before or after diluting the fructose to glucose ratio due to concurrent sucrose/other carbohydrate intake.

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Mechanism,

 

I tend to avoid dried fruit, mostly because it is so easy & tempting to eat more calories of it than one intends because of its caloric density. For example, I used to eat dried figs (which I consider healthy and about the tastiest things on the planet), but I found myself eating more than I wanted to, and feeling obligated to eat less of other healthy things to compensate.

 

Regarding fructose, I eat quite a bit of fructose-rich whole fruit, and I tend to consume it near the beginning of my (very big) meal mostly based on the folk wisdom from the fruitarian crowd who make the intuitive claim that because fruit is so water rich, it will digest quickly and slowing down said digestion by eating slower-digesting foods before the fruit will lead to a "log jam" in one's digestive track and to gastric distress.

 

The two exceptions are the bananas and the durian I eat, which I tend to leave towards the end of my meal, enjoying them with nuts as a sort of dessert. Neither is very water-rich, and I suspect they both are digested slower than other fruits like melon, berries, tree fruits etc.

 

The ordering of the food I eat (fruit first, then veggies and starch, then nuts & avacado) may be part of the reason I don't have trouble eating such a large quantity of food (~8.5 lbs), and so many calories (~3400) at one sitting, and then be ready to go for a run ten minutes after I finish.

 

--Dean

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I'm kinda with Dean on this: love, love, love dried fruit so much I lerrrrve it, haha, and can't seem to control myself with a bag of yum dried figs... So I stopped buying the candy for everyday consumption. Obviously, I eat dried goji berries, though, because they're magical portals into mystical realms with unicorns galloping us into disease-free youth forever. When hiking mountain trails, dried fruit are a healthy backpack companion that's easy to share with fellow sweaty and happy tree-huggers.

 

Dried fruit daily? Probably not for me. But like Dean I do love normal fruit, and in general love that fruitarian vibe, how fruit makes my body hum: apples, grapefruit, oranges, pears, berries, mangoes, papaya, cherries.... Durian are fun around kids, and durian are a test to see who's precocious (I'm hanging out with my eight-year old niece who may be the smartest person I've ever met, and since she ate some durian, I did, too, and so I'm both freaked out and impressed :-)

Edited by Sthira

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Great posts above.  I was not aware of the fruitrian "log jam" theory and will keep my eyes peeled for it.

 

The more I ponder the question, the more I realize I cannot discuss order of "high fructose load" portion of the meal relative to the other portions in isolation..... just as interventional studies in dietary interventions must account for what is taken out of the diet to make room for the intervention group food exposure ( or , as a corollary what the intervention of limiting a macronutrient or other exposure get substituted for it in the ad libitum diet).

 

I'm curious though on practices related to food ordering in general as arguments can be made both ways.

 

Example #1: Should nuts and/or other oily food be consumed first or last in the meal?

     a) Argument that nuts or other oily food should be consumed first: slows digestion, with consequent lower glycemic index / lower insulin / glucose spike

     b) Argument that nuts or other oily food last: permits higher anti-oxidant foods to be digested prior to oxidative load from nut oil content [ some background on oxidative load with oils: 

http://engine2diet.com/the-daily-beet/no-oil/].
 
Example 2: 
Should fruit be eaten first or last in the meal?
     a) Argument that fruit should be eaten first: increases satiation ( M Greger cited work) & the frutarian argument made above by Dean & increased anti-oxidant capacity prior to having oils in the meal.
   b) Argument that fruit should be eaten last: perhaps ( this is where the crsociety community may be able to dispel a myth for me as I am not aware of the research here) the "fructose load" via dilution from more balanced carbohydrate suppliers of glucose:fructose ratio may lessen the fructose load?  If this dilution effect is beneficial (having some sucrose digesting prior to the fructose load) or deletarious?  It is my understanding that a frucose co-transporter can be more active permitting more fructose in the cell under such circumstances but I am not aware of the impact of the above on insulin secretion, oxidative stress, and other relevant parameters.
 
Perspectives on options (a) vs. (b) for the examples would be most interesting fodder.
Edited by Mechanism

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Mechanism,

 

I was not aware of the fruitrian "log jam" theory and will keep my eyes peeled for it.

 

It's called the rule of "food combining". Google it and you'll find a never-ending series of debates about what foods go with what other foods, and which should be eaten first, mostly to optimize digestion to avoid bloating etc. The cardinal rule among these people (most low-fat, high-carb vegans like Dr. Esselstyn) is to eat fruit before other types of foods. But also to experiment and do what works for you.

 

I find eating fruit (mostly) first works for me, and my glucose control is quite good as a result of this strategy. Regarding your other questions, it's hard enough to know what foods and macronutrient ratio to eat overall for optimal health and longevity, to say nothing of what order to eat them. I figure the body is smart enough to figure out how to assimilate the mixed set of nutrients provided to it. 

 

In general, it seems to me that it all gets mixed together in the stomach and small intestine anyway, so worrying about how food order impacts absorption (beyond making sure to have fats with a meal to allow fat soluable nutrients to be absorbed) is a bit like guilding the lily, except if you are prone to digestive problems like IBS, GERD, etc.

 

--Dean

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Thank you Dean, I indeed will be checking out food combining. I appreciate the lead.

 

Interestingly McDougall, who falls in a line of philosophy close to Esselstyn whom you mentioned ( low-fat no added oil whole foods near-vegan diets) advises starting with least calorically dense and working up from there to increase satiation and I doing so reduce appetite, would suggest fruit consumption for most fruits in the middle of the meal - clearly there's room for experimentation and our problem is not caloric intake ( low BMI, fast metabolism ) and his rule addresses more the meal satiation perspective in the context of dieters trying to lose weight which addresses a different population with different goals and objectives than the CR community.

 

Point well taken and heartedly agree it all mixes in the end, I just wonder though whether order of meal macronutrient prior to mixing may impact clinically significant outcomes such as scenarios (a) vs (b) in my two examples above.

 

In support of potentially relevant outcome differences- interestingly, at least for blood sugar the differences can be rather substantial: http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0P52OO20150625

 

Now while that study was interesting from a glycemic control perspective, the impact on HgBA1c and long-term health implications, if any, for a non-diabetic CR / IF population I'm not sure, and I suspect empirical data is relatively lacking. The influence of HgBA1c or average glucose on metabolic syndrome / DMII / glycosylation products is better characterized than the influence of temporary post-prandial peaks on these outcomes.

 

I wonder whether others deliberately order nutrients during the meal to optimize CR based on (a) vs. (b) or other considerations?

Edited by Mechanism

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Mechanism,

 

Thanks for pointing to this popular report of a study on the impact that the order in which foods were eaten during a meal had on the postprandial blood sugar levels in diabetes. It found:

 

Finishing the broccoli and chicken before tucking into bread and fruit juice was tied to a lower rise in blood sugar levels over the next two hours, compared to eating the same foods in the opposite order, researchers report in Diabetes Care.
 

This makes sense, especially eating the chicken first - since protein stimulates insulin release, which would then be available later in the meal to help the diabetics cope with the blood sugar spike from the bread and fruit juice. And if someone has trouble with post-meal glucose control, this would definitely be something worth experimenting with.

 

--Dean

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Just my own snowflaky n=1 here regarding lower glucose numbers post fruit meals: I find if I eat a handful of nuts like almonds, walnuts, hazelnuts before digging into the berries or sweeter, then my sugar numbers stay lower. According to blood pricks and flimsy consumer meters in time, anyway. And lower blood sugar numbers aren't always optimal, of course, like before rigorous motion when my body needs umph.

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Thank you for sharing your N=1 experience Sthira! I suspect either the earlier release of insulin as Dean seemed to suggest in another post vs. via oils slowing down digestion and perhaps impacting glycemic index this way?

 

And Dean, where are fats / oils in your usual order of veggies / fruit / carbs? If imagine if EVOO mixed in with the main entree meal however avocado, olives etc can still be ordered.

 

Great responses so far... I'm curious whether others have given thought (or has two cents to impart) on the pros / cons of scenarios (a) vs (b) for the two examples (Dean do you think it all just mixes here, or order may matter just like in the blood sugar study above):

 

Example #1: Should nuts and/or other oily food be consumed first or last in the meal?

a) Argument that nuts or other oily food should be consumed first: slows digestion, with consequent lower glycemic index / lower insulin / glucose spike

b) Argument that nuts or other oily food last: permits higher anti-oxidant foods to be digested prior to oxidative load from nut oil content [ some background on oxidative load with oils:

 

Example 2:

Should fruit be eaten first or last in the meal?

a) Argument that fruit should be eaten first: increases satiation ( M Greger cited work) & the frutarian argument made above by Dean & increased anti-oxidant capacity prior to having oils in the meal.

• b) Argument that fruit should be eaten last: perhaps ( this is where the crsociety community may be able to dispel a myth for me as I am not aware of the research here) the "fructose load" via dilution from more balanced carbohydrate suppliers of glucose:fructose ratio may lessen the fructose load? Is this dilution effect beneficial (having some sucrose digesting prior to the fructose load) or harmful? Does fructose-glucose co-transport plays a role in the trade off?

 

FYI, here's the original manuscript to the paper Dean summarized above:

http://m.care.diabetesjournals.org/content/38/7/e98

Edited by Mechanism

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Mechanism,

 

And Dean, where do fats full in your usual order of veggies / fruit / carbs?

 

I eat my 1/2 avocado near the middle of my meal (after fruit, with the vegetables and starches) and leave nuts until the end, with my dessert (bananas and durian).

 

Regarding the rest of your questions, I don't have answers.

 

--Dean

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Could be, Mecha, that you've just gotta experiment to find how your own body reacts. But I think eating fiber (both types) first should universally slow sugary reactions from lucious fruit. I've just gotten into the habit of eating something non-sweet (veggies, nuts...) before going wild with mangoes

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I think you're right Sthira -- I've seen studies before suggesting fiber added to a meal reduces GI even if it increases caloric intake of an otherwise identical meal. I appreciate your input.

 

As for my (a) vs (b) scenarios, based on the lack of responses I assume I am overthinking this and data is lacking therefore I'm in a minority considering food sequence to minimize the effects of meal associated oxidative load, etc.

 

Has anyone found any merit to justify having high fructose load (eg-fruit) along with lower fructose food sources to "dilute" the metabolic impact of the fructose portion ( to alter the glucose to fructose ratio)? I'm not clear on whether glucose-fructose co-transport mechanisms would be advantageous or disadvantageous in this case.

Edited by Mechanism

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Here's another example of meal ordering, including both type 2 diabetics and normal subjects. 

Patients ate test meals consisting of 150 g white rice and vegetable salad (sliced tomato and cabbage with olive oil dressing), eating either vegetables before carbohydrates or vice versa.

 

There appears to be a benefit to consuming vegetables first even in normal subjects. Figure 2 and Table 1 summarize everything.

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Great find James!  Thank you for sharing with us.

 

Not only is the article pertinent, but with some high yield implications ---

 

1) In the figures from your paper, not only are there differences in blood glucose depending on the order of meal intake, but the differences are really remarkable (as a percent), especially in non-diabetics. The  differences in blood glucose depending on meal order are not only statistically significant highly CLINICALLY significant too.

 

2) Given (1), the health implications, and that changing meal order is easy to implement in many cases, this finding is both pertinent and actionable.

 

 

The paper highlights the advantages of veggies first, but what about other macronutrients, including protein sources, fruit, etc....

 

The paper fuels my interest on when would be the best time to have fats consumed during a meal: e.g., nuts & seeds.

 

 Here are the pros and cons paraphrased from above:

 

Should high fat foods such as nuts/seeds be eaten first or last in a meal?

 

option a argument) Fats should be consumed FIRST: fats reduce the rate of gastric emptying and thus may lower the overall glycemic index of the meal.  Having them first may set the stage for a lower glycemic index meal.

 

vs.

 

option b argument) Fats should be consumed LAST: more micronutrient and fiber availability earlier in the meal to reduce the degree of subsequent metabolic oxidative hit due to oxidized oil fats/oil free radical generation and inflammation.  

 

A case for (b) can be Esselstyn's argument (see video above) for no added oils due to their effect on the endothelial lining at any level.  However the argument for (a) is that anything that can significantly lessen BG excursions may outweigh this consideration.

 

I have not found any good data so far supporting or refuting the "log jam" fruit-first (even before veggies) hypothesis Dean kindly shared with us above.

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Mechanism,

 

A quick question for you. If you are interested in the impact of food ordering on glucose, why not do some controlled testing on yourself to see what works best? Glucose testing is inexpensive and easy. In fact, it is about the only quick, direct and informative test one can do for and on oneself and learn useful information about the impact of particular foods, eating and lifestyle practices on an important health metric. Plus this recent study [1] that made the rounds and got a lot of headlines claims to show that glucose response to foods varies dramatically from one individual to the next. 

 

You may already do glucose testing, and if so, good for you - please share what you learn about food ordering effects on yourself. But it never ceases to amaze me how many people will talk and speculate to no end about something they can easily evaluate for themselves.

 

My so called "Log Jam" hypothesis is one such personalized observation, supported by the personal observations of many other people who eat a lot of whole plants, namely that certain ordering of foods (e.g. eating fast-digesting, water-rich fruits first) seem to result in less gastric distress and bloating than other food orderings. I've tested my post-meal glucose as well, and I'm quite satisfied with my response, and that is how I've homed in on the food ordering I now follow. In the old days, even when my calories were spread between several meals rather than one very big one, I felt bloated after meals when I left fruit until later in the meal.

 

-Dean

 

------

[1] 1. Cell. 2015 Nov 19;163(5):1079-94. doi: 10.1016/j.cell.2015.11.001.

Personalized Nutrition by Prediction of Glycemic Responses.

Zeevi D(1), Korem T(1), Zmora N(2), Israeli D(3), Rothschild D(1), Weinberger
A(1), Ben-Yacov O(1), Lador D(1), Avnit-Sagi T(1), Lotan-Pompan M(1), Suez J(4),
Mahdi JA(4), Matot E(1), Malka G(1), Kosower N(1), Rein M(1), Zilberman-Schapira
G(4), Dohnalová L(4), Pevsner-Fischer M(4), Bikovsky R(1), Halpern Z(5), Elinav
E(6), Segal E(7).

Elevated postprandial blood glucose levels constitute a global epidemic and a
major risk factor for prediabetes and type II diabetes, but existing dietary
methods for controlling them have limited efficacy. Here, we continuously
monitored week-long glucose levels in an 800-person cohort, measured responses to
46,898 meals, and found high variability in the response to identical meals,
suggesting that universal dietary recommendations may have limited utility. We
devised a machine-learning algorithm that integrates blood parameters, dietary
habits, anthropometrics, physical activity, and gut microbiota measured in this
cohort and showed that it accurately predicts personalized postprandial glycemic
response to real-life meals. We validated these predictions in an independent
100-person cohort. Finally, a blinded randomized controlled dietary intervention
based on this algorithm resulted in significantly lower postprandial responses
and consistent alterations to gut microbiota configuration. Together, our results
suggest that personalized diets may successfully modify elevated postprandial
blood glucose and its metabolic consequences. VIDEO ABSTRACT.

Copyright © 2015 Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.

PMID: 26590418 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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I'll second Dean's suggestion to glucose test yourself after eating. Although I wonder about the accuracy of the consumer testing devices, and the strips get expensive.

 

Dean, just to make it brief, what is your meal order to keep sugar levels low? I know you have a long post here on your diet, but just thought you could make it quick.

 

I tend to eat nuts, fats (olive oil) and fiber first, then vegetables, then fruit. But not always -- when I need some jump I'll eat fruit on an empty stomach knowing from prior results that fruit first leads to a greater glucose response in my body. One of my biggest challenges is eating enough calories to maintain weight. I wish I was surrounded by healthier people who think the same way, it's a lonely experience trying to stay healthy.

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Although I wonder about the accuracy of the consumer testing devices, and the strips get expensive.

 

Strips are less than $0.25 each, and just one or two after a meal is all it takes after you get a feel for your postprandial glucose (i.e. when it's highest, etc.). And you only need to do that for a week or two while refining your diet / lifestyle, and then only very sporadically after meals or immediately upon waking to see how you're doing.

 

As for accuracy - mine home unit tends to read ~5 mg/dl higher than when I get a blood test done at Quest or Labcorp. But it is quite repeatable - multiple strips in succession are always within a couple mg/dl. The Wavesense unit I use is now a few years old, but still available (for $11) on Amazon as are the strips at $0.22 each. A very small price to pay for valuable testing of one's lifestyle.

 

Dean, just to make it brief, what is your meal order to keep sugar levels low?

 

Er, I outlined it in the second post of this thread at the top of the page:

 

The ordering of the food I eat (fruit first, then veggies and starch, then nuts & avacado) may be part of the reason I don't have trouble eating such a large quantity of food (~8.5 lbs), and so many calories (~3400) at one sitting, and then be ready to go for a run ten minutes after I finish. The two exceptions [to the 'fruit first' rule] are the bananas and the durian I eat, which I tend to leave towards the end of my meal, enjoying them with nuts as a sort of dessert. 
 
And note that I don't claim this particular ordering is optimal for blood glucose control. I've found for me it is a good ordering to avoid post-meal gastric distress and bloating, while maintaining good glucose control. I'm not one of those people (like Paul McGlothin) who thinks glucose should be kept as low as possible at all times. Brief glucose excursions up to around 120-125 seem fine to me, and a sign that you aren't over-producing insulin.
 

...it's a lonely experience trying to stay healthy.

 

Sthira I'm surprised to hear you say that. You seem like such an independent spirit, "who needs 'em" kinda guy.
 

--Dean

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Wow my thread got labeled "hot" by the BBS. I think that's a first for me! It's the little celebrations in life... On another aside, this is my first attempt to use the quote feature ( actually I clicked on multi quote) and I hope it works...

 

Dean, have long been suspicious of trials of N=1 via self-experiments -- the reliability of the data, innumerable potential confounders, etc. Having said that well-performed cross-over studies with washout periods where the subject, researcher, and statistician (if different) are blind to exposure groups status have a unique elegance well suited to answer some questions. Having said that, you found a gem of a reference (thank you!), and we all well know a population's median response may depart substantially from an individual's unique response and indeed that's exactly what the paper you cited has found.

 

There is a whole science to determining the reliability of diagnostic tests and this has not been my area of study. But assuming they have developed a truly reliable model for predicting individual food ordering response, their algorithm is not in the public domain... In such cases especially with limited "universes" (populations) though, such as CRONies & intermittent fasters (I'm in the latter camp), your suggestion of self-experimentation may be the best data we have. As new crsocietymember & IF practioner, reading your posts I have been inspired to do more experiments and have been increasingly persuaded of their value for many situations. My motivation getting a sense of others experiences and identify papers that studied the question of food ordering has been to

1) get a larger perspective from the broader community, and

2) compare with more rigorous studies that are better able to control by some variabilities and to examine the consistency of their findings.

 

(Note: even if we accept the methods of the paper I would like to see this validated by additional studies - consistent repeatability, ideally using different methodologies when appropriate, is the ultimate measure of reliability).

 

I use an Accucheck glucometer for these n=1 trials on myself but no matter how perfectly I try to match meal content and physical activity except for food ordering I can't convince myself that other variables are adequately controlled for that may vary from day to day (cortisol levels, sleep patterns, rate of food intake, perfect timing of the readings relative to the control intervention, fingertip temperature [in my case despite using a "gold standard" high quality glucometer I find I do get substantial differences depending on temperature and while I have read threads of on this forum getting more reliable readings using good technique, with even finger-warming under hot water with my tendency towards Raynaud's like cold hands introduces further variability], etc.

 

Thanks for sharing Dean, as usual you get the "found perfect study to demonstrate principal" award.

 

Mechanism,

 

A quick question for you. If you are interested in the impact of food ordering on glucose, why not do some controlled testing on yourself to see what works best? Glucose testing is inexpensive and easy. In fact, it is about the only quick, direct and informative test one can do for and on oneself and learn useful information about the impact of particular foods, eating and lifestyle practices on an important health metric. Plus this recent study [1] that made the rounds and got a lot of headlines claims to show that glucose response to foods varies dramatically from one individual to the next.

 

You may already do glucose testing, and if so, good for you - please share what you learn about food ordering effects on yourself. But it never ceases to amaze me how many people will talk and speculate to no end about something they can easily evaluate for themselves.

 

My so called "Log Jam" hypothesis is one such personalized observation, supported by the personal observations of many other people who eat a lot of whole plants, namely that certain ordering of foods (e.g. eating fast-digesting, water-rich fruits first) seem to result in less gastric distress and bloating than other food orderings. I've tested my post-meal glucose as well, and I'm quite satisfied with my response, and that is how I've homed in on the food ordering I now follow. In the old days, even when my calories were spread between several meals rather than one very big one, I felt bloated after meals when I left fruit until later in the meal.

 

-Dean

 

------

[1] 1. Cell. 2015 Nov 19;163(5):1079-94. doi: 10.1016/j.cell.2015.11.001.

Personalized Nutrition by Prediction of Glycemic Responses.

Zeevi D(1), Korem T(1), Zmora N(2), Israeli D(3), Rothschild D(1), Weinberger

A(1), Ben-Yacov O(1), Lador D(1), Avnit-Sagi T(1), Lotan-Pompan M(1), Suez J(4),

Mahdi JA(4), Matot E(1), Malka G(1), Kosower N(1), Rein M(1), Zilberman-Schapira

G(4), Dohnalová L(4), Pevsner-Fischer M(4), Bikovsky R(1), Halpern Z(5), Elinav

E(6), Segal E(7).

Elevated postprandial blood glucose levels constitute a global epidemic and a

major risk factor for prediabetes and type II diabetes, but existing dietary

methods for controlling them have limited efficacy. Here, we continuously

monitored week-long glucose levels in an 800-person cohort, measured responses to

46,898 meals, and found high variability in the response to identical meals,

suggesting that universal dietary recommendations may have limited utility. We

devised a machine-learning algorithm that integrates blood parameters, dietary

habits, anthropometrics, physical activity, and gut microbiota measured in this

cohort and showed that it accurately predicts personalized postprandial glycemic

response to real-life meals. We validated these predictions in an independent

100-person cohort. Finally, a blinded randomized controlled dietary intervention

based on this algorithm resulted in significantly lower postprandial responses

and consistent alterations to gut microbiota configuration. Together, our results

suggest that personalized diets may successfully modify elevated postprandial

blood glucose and its metabolic consequences. VIDEO ABSTRACT.

Copyright © 2015 Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.

PMID: 26590418 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Sthira thank you for sharing your experience. I found Dean's log jam hypothesis results interesting. While perception of loading is more subjective and can be influenced by confounders, his use of glucose monitoring makes it more objective and a nice thing with this kind of trial is the experiment can be repeated over and over and if the results are very reliable then there you have it the proof is in the pudding (or food ordering)!

 

So you have the fats first, which should in theory slow down digestion and potentially lower glycemic index (good) but I wonder if the oxidative hit of having the fats before the veggies has a downside. I imagine that would be blunted a lot by the fact many of your oils are in whole food form (nuts, seeds, avocado, olives) that have their own antioxidants... These would also digest more slowly due to their whole food form which is also good (more time for the veggies to "meet the oils" in the GI track).

 

 

Although I wonder about the accuracy of the consumer testing devices, and the strips get expensive.

 

Strips are less than $0.25 each, and just one or two after a meal is all it takes after you get a feel for your postprandial glucose (i.e. when it's highest, etc.). And you only need to do that for a week or two while refining your diet / lifestyle, and then only very sporadically after meals or immediately upon waking to see how you're doing.

 

As for accuracy - mine home unit tends to read ~5 mg/dl higher than when I get a blood test done at Quest or Labcorp. But it is quite repeatable - multiple strips in succession are always within a couple mg/dl. The Wavesense unit I use is now a few years old, but still available (for $11) on Amazon as are the strips at $0.22 each. A very small price to pay for valuable testing of one's lifestyle.

 

Dean, just to make it brief, what is your meal order to keep sugar levels low?

 

Er, I outlined it in the second post of this thread at the top of the page:

 

 

 

The ordering of the food I eat (fruit first, then veggies and starch, then nuts & avacado) may be part of the reason I don't have trouble eating such a large quantity of food (~8.5 lbs), and so many calories (~3400) at one sitting, and then be ready to go for a run ten minutes after I finish. The two exceptions [to the 'fruit first' rule] are the bananas and the durian I eat, which I tend to leave towards the end of my meal, enjoying them with nuts as a sort of dessert.

And note that I don't claim this particular ordering is optimal for blood glucose control. I've found for me it is a good ordering to avoid post-meal gastric distress and bloating, while maintaining good glucose control. I'm not one of those people (like Paul McGlothin) who thinks glucose should be kept as low as possible at all times. Brief glucose excursions up to around 120-125 seem fine to me, and a sign that you aren't over-producing insulin.

 

 

...it's a lonely experience trying to stay healthy.

 

 

Sthira I'm surprised to hear you say that. You seem like such an independent spirit, "who needs 'em" kinda guy.

 

--Dean

Edited by Mechanism

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The more I read scientific papers and the totally opposite conclusions they reach based on same data, the more I think empirical rules derived from practical experience are close to the mark.

 

I've been eating always fruit first, invariably, and this is the rule which most practicioner of natural medicine will enunciate.

One possible exception is when the fruit contains proteolitic enzymes and its main purpose is to digest proteins, then it may come last but in modest amounts.

 

One remark on the 'all food gets mixed in the stomach'. As far as I've observed in my case (n=1 but I doubt my stomach is very mucn different from other humans), there might be some stratification pattern in the stomach, at least in the initial stages of digestion (first half an hour). That is, food consumed first tends to stay at the bottom.

 

Consequently fruit would be digested relatively rapidly when eaten first, and this would justify the traditional rule (and the absence of bloating if the rule is followed and the presence of bloating conversely).

Edited by mccoy

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Thank you McCoy- other tips:

 

1) eat slowly ( better post-prandial thermogenesis) http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/cen.12652/full

 

2) food preparation makes a difference: http://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/7/9/5371/pdf

And

 

3) as we all know, Whole Foods are better than equivalent fiber and/ or antioxidants ( less inflammatory response): http://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/7/8/5273

Edited by Mechanism

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I find it easier to not go crazy with dried fruit by setting a "rule" that it's a condiment rather than a snack.  I can snip up a small amount of dried figs, apricots, or cherries as a topping for a salad or oatmeal. But no eating them out of the bag.  The other thing that helps is to get these from bulk bins, only buying a small amount at a time. 

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Mechanism,

 

Like mccoy,  I appreciate your article links.

 

1) eat slowly ( better post-prandial thermogenesis)

 

 

Years ago,  I adopted (more or less) the habit of  "yogi mastication" as described in the little book,  "Hatha Yoga or The Yogi Philosophy of Physical  Well‑Being"  (1904) by the once-popular-in-the-West Yogi Ramacharaka  (1862–1932).

 

The whole book is available here:

http://www.yogebooks.com/english/atkinson/1904-08hathayoga.pdf

 

See Chapter X (p. 53)   "The Yogi Theory and Practice of Prana Absorption from Food"

 

Follow the yogic method, and you will get great results. That is my belief.  Of course, the ideas are radically unscientific and really  do not belong in  CR Society forum discussions.

Edited by Sibiriak

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I agree DrCha, I also rarely have dried fruit and when I do use it as a condiment. One of my favorite in this category or small amounts of dried goji berries which where I live are hard to get fresh.

 

Thank you Sibiriak, I have enjoyed participating in "mindful eating "– practice with yoga traditions. With your interests, though I know you live far away, if you're ever visiting the United States, please consider seeing the Kripalu yoga center - Long time CR Society member Saul has brought it up several times in the past as a potential venue for CR society meetings. The yoga and Whole Foods there and overall atmosphere is Wonderful. I find it interesting how many yoga and eastern philosopy aficionados frequent this board here.

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