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6 hours ago, mgoktas20 said:

Heyy. Who will explain it??

It is a proof that oleic acid activates SIRT1.

mgoktas, here we call that anecdotal evidence, subjective feeling or impression, which may not reflect the results of a whole population or large sample, subjected to inherent random variability due to the laws of nature.

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17 hours ago, edmundsj said:

Even though EVOO is nutritionally impotent, in principle it's also possible it contains some compound that could dramatically improve human health. Even if this was the case, however, the effect would have to be fairly large to justify the opportunity cost.

Not unless you carry out a proper optimization strategy. you simply have to maximize the concentration of beneficial compounds (secoiridoids) and minimize the quantities by achieving an optimum balance.

One example: a very high polyphenols EVOO, let's say 750 ppms, in the amount of one tablespoon per day. It would still meet the USDA recommendations while sacrificing only about 100 kCals of energy to a CR diet. 100 kCals are easily burned by 20 minutes of aerobic activity.

Of course the above would not apply if there is a threshold effect, that is, if secoiridoids are useful only above a certain amount. 

At the end of it, everything is a reasoned gamble, but you cannot say with certainty that your gamble is better than mine.

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1 hour ago, mccoy said:

Not unless you carry out a proper optimization strategy. you simply have to maximize the concentration of beneficial compounds (secoiridoids) and minimize the quantities by achieving an optimum balance.

One example: a very high polyphenols EVOO, let's say 750 ppms, in the amount of one tablespoon per day. It would still meet the USDA recommendations while sacrificing only about 100 kCals of energy to a CR diet. 100 kCals are easily burned by 20 minutes of aerobic activity.

Of course the above would not apply if there is a threshold effect, that is, if secoiridoids are useful only above a certain amount. 

At the end of it, everything is a reasoned gamble, but you cannot say with certainty that your gamble is better than mine.

But now with your own submission we have more evidence that high fat diets may increase insulin resistance so the gamble appears to be shifting wouldn’t you say?

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2 hours ago, Mike41 said:

high fat diets may increase insulin resistance 

Preeminent health and longevity scientist Luigi Fontana has dedicated a whole section of his recent book to the argument  that  virgin olive oil is the healthiest condiment around.

He  writes:

Quote

Traditionally it is extracted from the ripe fruit of the olive tree without using chemical solvents or heat. Because of this the unrefined cold-pressed juice of these fruits is rich in unspoiled monounsaturated fats, vitamins and bioactive compounds that are so beneficial to our health. Of course, the better the quality of the olive fruit and the faster the juice is cold pressed, the higher the quality and taste of the oil produced. (p. 129).

But please, Mike,   try to understand  that using high quality EVOO as a condiment does not turn a  low calorie WFPB diet into a "high fat diet".

Edited by Sibiriak

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23 hours ago, Michael R said:

t's indeed a high bar to clear (though, in fact, few foods can meet it and it's arguably too high: what's your justification for eating zucchini, for instance?), but EVOO has quite successfully passed it, as documented earlier.not just from risk factors but from actual events, as documented near the beginning of this thread.

I have to disagree, quite strongly.

The comparison with zucchini is unfortunate, as a whole zucchini is neither processed, like olive oil, neither stripped of most of its nutrient content, like olive oil. Olive oil, including EVOO, has a significant adverse impact on endothelial function -- a little less so for EVOO, but not enough to matter.

 

7 hours ago, mccoy said:

a very high polyphenols EVOO, let's say 750 ppms, in the amount of one tablespoon per day. It would still meet the USDA recommendations while sacrificing only about 100 kCals of energy to a CR diet. 100 kCals are easily burned by 20 minutes of aerobic activity. 

Of course the above would not apply if there is a threshold effect, that is, if secoiridoids are useful only above a certain amount. 

At the end of it, everything is a reasoned gamble, but you cannot say with certainty that your gamble is better than mine.

If it was only a matter of calories, it wouldn't matter much. But as I noted above and previously in this thread, it's not.  Based on my research, the daily consumption of EVOO is not a reasonable gamble if one is primarily focused on health and not enjoyment.  I learned about olive leaf here and I consume several grams a few times a week -- given that it provides a higher concentration of secoiridoids than EVOO (if my memory serves me), olive leaf is a much better gamble, IMO.

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6 hours ago, Mike41 said:

But now with your own submission we have more evidence that high fat diets may increase insulin resistance so the gamble appears to be shifting wouldn’t you say?

Mike, as a first consequence, it may appear to be so, but actually, it's not very clear. The vegan doctors might have a point in reasoning that high fats may increase IMLs, but as far as I remember, dr. Schulman had to inject diglycerides into his patients to cause insulin resistance due to IMLs. In the podcast they did not discuss about dietary regimes which are likely to increase IML, except the case of obesity, where the existence of IML and insulin resistance is a given. Schulman did not describe the diet of the young, thin subjects who exhibited insulin resistance. AS far as I remember.

I still have to read in detail the article posted by Dean, which might shed some light on teh subject.

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mgoktas, maybe there are some problems with the google translator. It seems that the sense of what we write in English is not exactly the same that google translates in Turkish.

Edited by mccoy

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On 12/11/2020 at 12:31 PM, Sibiriak said:

Preeminent health and longevity scientist Luigi Fontana has dedicated a whole section of his recent book to the argument  that  virgin olive oil is the healthiest condiment around.

He  writes:

But please, Mike,   try to understand  that using high quality EVOO as a condiment does not turn a  low calorie WFPB diet into a "high fat diet".

That depends. Also high fat is a definition that needs to be defined and that is a controversy in itself. 

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On 11.12.2020 at 17:10, mccoy said:

mgoktas, here we call that anecdotal evidence, subjective feeling or impression, which may not reflect the results of a whole population or large sample, subjected to inherent random variability due to the laws of nature.

So, can you explain this study? I used google translate. 

METHODS

The participants were 40 obese elementary students over 25 kg/m2 to BMI, 10 combined exercise with high olive oil supplement group (HO+CE), 10 combined exercise with low olive oil supplement group (LO+CE), 10 combined exercise with placebo group (PL+CE), and 10 placebo group (PL). The participants have performed the exercise program for 70 minutes a day and 3 times a week with aerobic and resistance exercise during 12 weeks. Also, high and low olive oil supplement group took in 25 g and 10 g respectively at the same time and place.
1251182697_Ekrangrnts2020-12-19165130.png.b487cb61cc10c4549719dba441a36dde.png
192871646_Ekrangrnts2020-12-19165458.png.db49f51c5ba398d6dec51bbc17860fb6.png

Influence of Extra Virgin Olive Oil Supplement and Combined Exercise on Health-Related Physical Fitness, Cardiovascular Disease Risk Factors, and Bone Density in Obese Elementary Student

 

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On 12/11/2020 at 8:10 AM, mgoktas20 said:

SIRT1 Decreases Emotional Pain Vulnerability with Associated CaMKIIα Deacetylation in Central Amygdala

I will proof this. I have brother he is 15. And we started 3 days ago to a diet. (he is 173 cm and 70 kg). And he is a bit fatty.

He drinks olive oil 40-50 g in a little moment and after drinking he eats a chocolate(to drink, because i think benefits are more than harms). And today he said : I started feeling less emotinal pain when our parents are shouted. Like me.

Heyy. Who will explain it??

It is a proof that oleic acid activates SIRT1.

mgoktas, I do not deny the truthfulness of your story, I'm simply telling you that your story is not a proof, rather is an individual example which might be corroborated, or explained, by the article you cited.

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6 hours ago, Mike41 said:

A new study comparing olive oil based. Mediterranean diet with a low fat vegan diet. This one is really low fat unlike predimed. A crossover study

I saw this, interesting and it confirms my relatively newly developed bias against the daily use of EVOO.

I do consume olive leaf extract every day though (50% oleuropein):

https://www.toniiq.com/products/olive-leaf?_pos=1&_sid=09585850e&_ss=r

Sadly, this is another manufacturer that has been successfully pressured by Amazon for an exclusive, so you can't even buy it on their own site :(

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9 hours ago, Mike41 said:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/07315724.2020.1869625

A new study comparing olive oil based. Mediterranean diet with a low fat vegan diet. This one is really low fat unlike predimed. A crossover study

The subjects increased their energy intake from baseline by 79 Cal on the Med diet, but decreased it by 500 Calories on the vegan diet. Consistent with that, the subjects were weight-stable on Med, but lost 6 kd (13.2 lbs) on the vegan diet.

The metabolic changes are consistent with weight loss. It's not clear that there was any specific effect of the diet being either low-fat or vegan, let alone the specific presence or absence of EVOO.

Also, "Participants were asked to use extra virgin olive oil instead of other fats or oils" on Med, but no food was provided or specific brands endorsed in the study: presumably they thought they were buying EVOO, but who knows what they were actually consuming (or if, were it EVOO, it contained decent levels of phenolics).

And most importantly, there were no hard outcomes in this study, whose presence is a major strength of PREDIMED.

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23 hours ago, Michael R said:

The subjects increased their energy intake from baseline by 79 Cal on the Med diet, but decreased it by 500 Calories on the vegan diet. Consistent with that, the subjects were weight-stable on Med, but lost 6 kd (13.2 lbs) on the vegan diet.

Fair point that should have been addressed clearly in the video interview. On the other hand, it does not necessarily invalidate the point that a vegan diet is more likely to result in weight loss than a Meditarainian diet, as the latter includes more calorie-dense and fiber-lacking foods -- this includes stuff like olive oil. The bottom line is that all participants consumed fewer calories on the vegan diet, implying that people feel satiated sooner when eating vegan than on the Med diet.

We can quibble about higher or lower phenolics content in EVOO, but I haven't seen any substantive evidence that it matters all that much in the larger scheme, as ultimately one can get higher amounts by eating stuff like blueberries, without the processed pure fat found in even the best EVOO. To me, it seems that the heavy marketing by the olive oil industry has more to do with it than any benefits exclusive to EVOO.

One other point that seems to be generally glossed over by the proponents of EVOO: olive leaves appear to contain more phenolics than even the richest EVOO, without the fat or processing.  If the concern is really phenolics, then olive leaves or olive leaf extracts should be encouraged over EVOO.

I understand that EVOO is generally delicious and olive leaves taste like sawdust, but that's a totally different matter.

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Ron, if the point of the article was: subjects who switch from  a Mediterranean diet, who switch to eating a low-fat, vegan diet, with 500 less calories than baseline, tend to loose weight, well, that's proven but, like the slang idiom goes, no shit sherlock, no surprise, since the comparison was not normocaloric.

We've been discussing that many times, but the EVOO phenolics are mainly secoiridoids, different molecules from other molecules of the same polyphenols group.

10 hours ago, Ron Put said:

One other point that seems to be generally glossed over by the proponents of EVOO: olive leaves appear to contain more phenolics than even the richest EVOO, without the fat or processing.  If the concern is really phenolics, then olive leaves or olive leaf extracts should be encouraged over EVOO.

That's a more sensible objection, but then some questions may rise: are the compounds the same, are the concentrations equal, are any synergies present? The medicinal properties of olive leaves are well known, so they might as well have the same benefits of EVOO (or even more, possibly), but I wonder if there is any scientific comparison between the two.

Another governing factor may be the availability and price of good hi-poly EVOO. Where not available, then olive leaves extracts may be the best choice.

 

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10 hours ago, Ron Put said:

without the processed pure fat found in even the best EVOO.

The fat in EVOOs today available is extracted from the pulp of olives by centrifuges, in a low-temperature environment. So 'processed' may give the wrong idea. It's more like pressing fresh fruit. Surely unlike eating raw olives, but hey, they are practically unedible if unprocessed by alkali brines or high temperatures...

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5 hours ago, mccoy said:

The fat in EVOOs today available is extracted from the pulp of olives by centrifuges, in a low-temperature environment. So 'processed' may give the wrong idea. It's more like pressing fresh fruit. Surely unlike eating raw olives, but hey, they are practically unedible if unprocessed by alkali brines or high temperatures...

IOW’s it’s like drinking fruit juice rather than eating the whole fruit! Which is another reason obesity is epidemic. IAC I can personally testify to the almost incredidible satiating effect of a low fat whole plant food diet. I eat about 14% fat and the only animal food I eat is organic nonfat yogurt which I love on my whole grain/ legume breakfeast consisting of steel cut oats, quinio, lentils, apples, berries, chia seed, talk about filling and delicious.  Bottom line I am never hungry BMI 21.

Edited by Mike41

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Mike, the comparison is almost right, except for the fact that fruit is edible, the olive tree fruit is hardly edible, if not processed (heated or cured in NaOH).

And if you are satisfied with your Low fat diet then you're lucky to have found a fulfilling scheme, diet is always a personal choice, beyond the general rules for health and longevity we all know. I too eat lots of nonfat yogurt (in the summer) but cereals tend to bloat me, whereas I find vegetables easier to digest.

 

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9 hours ago, mccoy said:

That's a more sensible objection, but then some questions may rise: are the compounds the same, are the concentrations equal, are any synergies present?

I had posted earlier about the respective concentrations found in olive leaves and olive oil, and it appears that olive leaves are considerably richer. I am trying to hedge my bets, which is why I have been using olive leaf powder, and lately, olive leaf extracts with 50% concentration.

 

On 5/31/2019 at 6:42 PM, Ron Put said:

But it appears that the leaves of the olive tree have a higher concentration of oleuropein aglycone, without the fat:

"
In the fruits, phenyl acids, flavonoids and secoiridoids have been reported, the phenolic compounds representing 1–3% (w/v) Brenes et al., 1993. In the leaves, 19% (w/w) is oleuropein and 1.8% (w/w) flavonoids, of which 0.8% is luteolin 7-glucoside (Le Tutour and Guedon, 1992). https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S131901641000040X

The above does not address the bioavailability of olive leaf extract phenolics in humans, but these do (and it seems good):

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/258044243_Bioavailability_of_phenolics_from_an_oleuropein-rich_olive_Olea_europaea_leaf_extract_and_its_acute_effect_on_plasma_antioxidant_status_Comparison_between_pre-_and_postmenopausal_women

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ptr.5625

 

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Ron, maybe the best scheme might be to ingest both EVOO and olive leaf extracts. Why not? In this scheme, one tablespoon of hi-poly EVOO would preempt just 100 kcals. I myself am probably going to add some olive leaves extracts to the relatively abundant dosage of EVOO I already ingest. Hoping not to develop a greenish complexion in the process. 👽👽👽

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Does anyone know how well bag-in-box packaging preserves the polyphenol content of olive oil? I'm tempted to purchase a 3 or 5 liter bag of some Oilala Coratina, but it would probably last me a few months and I imagine that is considerable time for the polyphenol content to plummet, even in BIB's "vacuum seal" packaging.

Edited by tea

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12 hours ago, tea said:

Is anyone able to access this newly published article?

It appears that you can download the full text through the Apple Store, by following this link:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/349029872_Effects_of_bag-in-box_packaging_on_long-term_shelf_life_of_extra_virgin_olive_oil/download

I didn't bother, since I don't care enough to allow the tracking required.

On the other hand, this indicates that temperature is the most significant factor in storing olive oil:

Packaging and Storage of Olive Oil

Olive oil storage and packaging are final steps of the production process and are as important as the other ones. Deterioration agents can decrease the quality of this important food also during these unit operations, so a correct control and monitoring of some indicators can be useful to the olive oil shelf life. Storage environment and its characteristics (temperature most of all) contribute to it.

Packaging typologies also influence the stored olive oil properties with different results depending on materials. During the time various containers were adopted and evaluated with evident feedback for qualitative aspects (some material have been in fact banned for healthy causes). Moreover, the traditional uses can give to different preferences (e.g. in Italy is very difficult to substitute the glass apart from its ascertained value as packaging material for olive oil).

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