Jump to content

Recommended Posts

I don't think that's the one, but that's an interesting study in its own right. Pretty much my point being is that there isn't any dramatic difference between nuts and EVOO as far as CVD outcomes. If EVOO were truly deleterious as the claim is made by Eselstyn, Ornish et al, then there should be a dramatic difference. And yet here we are. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

nti-Inflammatory Effects of a Vegan Diet Versus the American Heart Association-Recommended Diet in Coronary Artery Disease Trial. This was just posted by Al Pater. A significant effect and something that is profoundly important for health: INFLAMMATION. they were both comparable in terms of fat consumption so this study doesn’t tell us anything on that subject, but comparing a vegan diet to a low fat dairy and fish based diet that’s interesting imo.

 

Thankyou Al Pater!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/16/2019 at 11:53 AM, Saul said:

Also:  If you use ALA for w3's, you may or may not get your EFA's -- the essential ones are the long chain w3's, such as found in fish oil (or better still in fish!).  Some people are efficient in converting short-chain w3's into long chain -- some are not.

IMO, veganism is a religion.

But, I think that we all think that a good diet is plant based -- with little, if any, animal sources.

A 100% vegan diet is:

Starch, salt, sugar, olive oil and edamame.

Enjoy.

😁

  ==  Saul

Yes agree, I don't like to even use the term vegan as its not indicative of a healthy way of eating.  My point was that It seems interesting to me that a study of 14,000 found the highest DHA (long chain omega 3s) levels in the people who eat no meat/fish.  But if one were to take a supplement for DHA/EPA, it seems to me that an algae based, lab produced variety would be superior to one from fish living in polluted waters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Or fish oil from fish living in clean waters.  Believe it or not, most fish are not residents of polluted waters -- just as most vegetables are not contaminated with bacteria and fungi.  (Don't believe the preaching vegan gurus; one of them is a zealot),

My favorite fsh is sashimi king salmon -- most evenings I eat 3oz.  Notice, I prefer to eat my fish raw.  I wouldn't do vry well if they were all contaminated.

😉

Edited by Saul

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm only a sample of one, but my diet is vegetables and fish. My HDL is always way above the "upper safe level"; my LDL way below "healthy teen" numbers (although I'll be 80 in June 😊 ).  My triglycerides are also vanishingly low.  My Chol/HDL ratio is always either 1.7 or 1.6.

My diet is not vegan.

  --  Saul

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Saul said:

I'm only a sample of one, but my diet is vegetables and fish. My HDL is always way above the "upper safe level"; my LDL way below "healthy teen" numbers (although I'll be 80 in June 😊 ).  My triglycerides are also vanishingly low.  My Chol/HDL ratio is always either 1.7 or 1.6.

My diet is not vegan.

  Hi Saul, the vegan diet study posted by Al showed significantly lower inflammation when compared to a very reasonable non vegan diet. Inflammation is an even more important overall health indicator than blood lipids. The consensus is that many diseases are rooted in high inflammatory states. I find it remarkable, if the study is accurate, that veganism could have such a profound effect. 

 

Edited by mikeccolella

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, TomBAvoider said:

Here is an attempted Dietary Inflammatory Index:

The dietary inflammatory index may have limited value or need refinement.  While there are studies showing it's value, those I found showed links between authors and the institution behind the concept.  Here's a recent look at using it by outsiders that found limited value.  I think one possible flaw might be the high value placed on IL 6 as a purely negative pro-inflammatory marker while there is plenty of research indicating multiple roles, it can be beneficial and even anti inflammatory, inhibiting TNF-alpha, especially when released by muscle in response to exercise.

Association between Dietary Inflammatory Index, C-Reactive Protein and Metabolic Syndrome: A Cross-Sectional Study

Quote

This study suggested a close association between CRP and MetS, while the association between the DII and MetS was limited. DII was only specifically associated with CRP at a higher level among participants with MetS.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, mikeccolella said:

Hi Saul, the vegan diet study posted by Al showed significantly lower inflammation when compared to a very reasonable non vegan diet. Inflammation is an even more important overall health indicator than blood lipids. The consensus is that many diseases are rooted in high inflammatory states. I find it remarkable, if the study is accurate, that veganism could have such a profound effect. 

Hi Mike!

My CRP is always below the detectable level.

My diet is not Vegan.

Of course, I'm an experiment of size 1.

😊

  --  Saul

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/18/2019 at 7:42 AM, mikeccolella said:

Hi Saul, the vegan diet study posted by Al showed significantly lower inflammation when compared to a very reasonable non vegan diet. Inflammation is an even more important overall health indicator than blood lipids. The consensus is that many diseases are rooted in high inflammatory states. I find it remarkable, if the study is accurate, that veganism could have such a profound effect. 

Hi again Mike!

Remember, "correlation is not causation".

IMO, anyone who is on a strictly vegan diet (especially in WD countries) is someone who is health conscious -- such a person is carefully watching hir diet, and probably exercises as well.  So, comparing inflammation of vegans with ad lib westerners, will certainly find vegans having lower inflammation.

That might not be the case if comparing vegans and health-conscious Cronnies on a plant-based diet including a small amount of fish.

(BTW. as I recall, several of the popular vegan gurus maintain that a small amount of fish is desirable in the diet -- but not one of vegan gurus, who claims that all fish are polluted.)

  --  Saul 

Edited by Saul
Left something out

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For what it's worth, here's a quote from one of Al's posts, that suggests that high fat, high SFA, high MUFA, but not high PUFA, might have a negative influence on gut microbiota.

High fat and high SFA diets can exert unfavorable effects on the gut microbiota and are associated with an unhealthy metabolic state. Also high MUFA diets may negatively affect gut microbiota whereas PUFA do not seem to negatively affect the gut microbiota or metabolic health outcomes. However, data are not consistent and most RCT and observational studies showed risks of bias.

--  Saul

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4864433/#!po=34.2105

we see that a high fat diet 41% vs a diet of 29% fat, hardly low fat, has a signicant negative effect on endothelial function. The big question is how would an excellent olive oil effect it? IAC my experience now with a WFPBLF diet is going on 6 weeks. Ornish cites, in his new book, the effect on young men and erectile function during sleep and notes profound effects vs high fat diets. I’m talking 300% range!!!  My experience going from a 35% fat diet consisting of EVOO and nuts to a 15% fat diet with no other changes except replacing fat calories with whole fruits, grains and vegetables is an amazing response wherein, w/o being too detailed a tripling of orgasms. That’s good news for quality of life and my prostrate which I’m told by a urologist benefits! Anecdotal but the research is indicating this to be the case and I will add I am not vulnerable to placebo effects. In my life I have tried every supplement and dietary, exercise regimen out there and very few effects were noticeable. The exceptions are exercise, zinc and weight loss.

Edited by mikeccolella

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Something to keep in mind is the low fat diet favored by Ornish, pritikin and esseltyne is certainly much lower than 29% featured in the above article and the so called low fat diet in predimed which imo is blatantly misleading

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fact is that, to me (and probably many other people) a LF diet would entail the same degree of stoicism of a keto diet. Very hard to follow. Are the benefits proportional to the sacrifice involved? Literature does not hunanimously support that.

But maybe I'm going to try that, even as I tried the keto diet. summertime would be the right season.

Edited by mccoy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly Itried low fat at least two other times and I did it for lipids and found a negative result. Lower hdl 70’s to 50,s as I recall and trig

ycerides doubled from 50ish to 100ish. The reason I am currently interested is that apparently the benefit is mostly attributable to improved endothelial function not lipids. The fact that esseltyne and Ornish have published results orf REVERSING CAD in advanced cases is to my mind an incredible thing. Ornish claims over 80% respond that way, of course it’s a program also including exercise and stress reduction.drugsdont do that, nothing has ever done that. If it is true then the effects on the brain and other aspects of health could be quite profound. We definitely need a good long term study, but as you have voiced it few can follow such a diet and yet every time I’ve done it I find it MUCH MORE APPEALING and I literally lost 6 lbs unintentional because I can eat much more high Fibre solid food. I’m not as hungry. I don’t want to lose any more so I have to force myself to eat more. Very palatable and satisfying diet IMO and if it reverses CAD the biggest killer that’s an incredible thing and even those not prone to CAD might benefit. Also McCoy keep in mind the literature says little if anything about low fat diets of the Ornish/esseltyne type because they have not been done. Predimed is a big farce! The so called low fat diet was anything but!

Edited by mikeccolella

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Joel Fuhrman was ripping low fat plant based diets a bit in this recent interview: 

 

It's interesting there has been a deluge of videos on YouTube recently of people who were once "vegan" (many of these people had vegan focused channels) but have abandoned this after experiencing health problems (search youtube for ex-vegan).  I can see how it is far more difficult to "do well" than advertised (getting the gut biome right, DHA, iodine, B12, k2, salt, enough calories, etc).  This interview was an attempt at some kind of response to this backlash movement.  The vegans seem to be losing the PR war at the momeny, too many sickly looking vegans wasting away on YouTube, it's sad.  But there are also a bunch that look healthy too, and obviously are doing something different/right ("Plant Based News" has done some good interviews with plant based promoting doctors).  It will be interesting to see who wins out in the end, but the plant based way of eating seems to be growing in general, and I keep seeing more new "vegan" products at grocery stores and restaurants.  

Edited by Gordo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Gordo.

A quick question about your inclusion of K2 above; my general thought is simply achieve 1.5-2x RDA values for all vitamins & minerals - however regarding vitamin K2 I tend to think this could be something worth taking in higher values in supplement form. 

In 2004, the Rotterdam Study showed that people who consume 45mcg of K2 daily live 7 years longer than people getting 12mcg per day - this is imho astonishing.

I've been taking LEF 'Super K' ever since which contains K1 and both forms of K2 - my only concern here is that (typical with many supplements) the quantities in the Super K seem to be a mega-dose.  I realize for a fat-soluble vitamin like K, this could accumulate in tissues but I want to ensure that I'm completely minimizing calcification.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LEF IS into mega dosing. Research on every nutrient I’m aware of has repeatedly shown that this don’t work! Most recent supp vitamin D. In fact not only that it does not work it’s harmful

Edited by mikeccolella

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/20/2019 at 6:36 PM, mikeccolella said:

Something to keep in mind is the low fat diet favored by Ornish, pritikin and esseltyne is certainly much lower than 29% featured in the above article and the so called low fat diet in predimed which imo is blatantly misleading

As it would appear from the following table included in the revised study, the PREDIMED study basically underlines an improved CVD HR in a diet relatively rich in healthy fats, compared to a diet which contains an amount of fats, which is pragmatistically as low as possible. Obviously, the control does not follow a stoic low fat diet, wich requires unflinching determination. So mike you appear to be right in that  from the PREDIMED article we have no scientific proof that many healthy fats are better than very few healthy fats. 

 

image.png.49271d6264cce150ce5facf32efd872b.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

37% fat is not anything we could call a low fat diet. Predimed is a scam and the news media loved claiming that a low fat diet was unhealthy. As for a low fat diet being tough to adhere to all I can say is that try it! IAC, CR is much more difficult than a low fat diet. For breakfast I had oatmeal with chopped apples, mango,  craisens topped off with a bit of almond milk. Absolutely delicious and totally satisfying. I suppose a 1/2 cup of olive oil would have been more interesting but what can I say😏 HA HA!  BTW, still very noticible change in my sexual drive. AMAZING Really. The flow mediated dilation must be the reason. So why would I want to bog down my circulation by eating a lot of fat. I’ll stick to the 15% fat. That’s plenty and I don’t at all miss slopping olive oil on my food

Edited by mikeccolella

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×