Jump to content
Mechanism

How strict/discriminating to go - one ingredient veto, with examples

Recommended Posts

OK, now bear with me with this long post, I think it will be a worthwhile read and I am hoping we can have a little fun here on this board voting / discussing why we voted yeah or nay for the 10 numbered items below.  It would be great to exchange thoughts and practices here.

 

Synopsis: At Kripalu I have enjoyed creating my own dishes form stratch using raw ingredients, thus eliminating the need to have an unwanted less desirable ingredient so I partake in a limited number of "prepared" entrees.  Below I give examples for CR practioners input on whether or not they would have or skip these if there are great options for making your own entree from scratch using the basic food options also available at Kripalu such as raw veggies, legumes, nuts/seeds, etc.  The question is whether the "bad" ingredient (bolded) in your own practice would veto your helping yourself to that entree if you were happy with making your own dish from scatch.  

 

After reading the post, please contribute to this thread, casting your votes on (1)-(10) yeah or nay, with rationale why or why or why not the ingredient would veto your decision whether or not to have some.

 

(1) Punjabi red lentil dahl: Red lentils, tomatoes, onions, tumeric, paprika, brown mustard seed, asafoetido, garlic, ginger, coriander, garam masala, coconut milk, cilantro, cayenne pepper, sunflower oil, black pepper, sea salt

I don't have a big problem with the coconut oil as my lipids are low so no big deal with a bit of SFA, but sunflower oil?  would you veto due to the higher omega 6 to omega 3 ratio, or not care since it seems to be pretty low down the ingredient list?

 

(2) Kitchari: Yellow moong dahl beans, basmaticoconut oil, cumin, asafetida, tumeric, brown mustard seed, cilantro, black pepper, sea salt

High GI of basmati, saturated fat from coconut oil

 

(3) Lentil dahl: Green lentils, ginger, bay leaf, cumin, celery,carrots, lemon, asafoetida, tumeric, sunflower oil, sea salt

Similar potential objection as #1, however coconut oil is not listed, so perhaps more sunflower oil.  [they also sometimes have a red lentil dahl: red lentils, celery, carrots, sunflower oil, brown mustard seed, asafoetida, coriander, ginger, tumeric, sea salt ].

 

(4) Kale with mustard seeds: Kale, brown mustard seed, safflower oil

Why did they use safflower oil?  Same high omega 6:3 ratio issues as sunflower oil

 

(5) Punjabi cauliflower & peas: Cauliflower, peas, ghee, ginger, tumeric, coriander, cumin, cayenne pepper, cilantro sea salt

Why the ghee - clarified butter is better than the conventional one (less lactose & casein, possible prebiotic value), but it is still a butter (SFAs, elevates IGF-1, etc)

 

(6) Black beans & carrots: Black beans, black eyed peas, carrots, kombu, sea salt

Potential high iodine in the kombu... same issue with "adzuki beans with ginger": adzuki beans, kombu,carrots, sea salt

 

(7) Grilled vegetables: Zucchini & yellow squas, eggplant, red bell peppers, olive oil, garlic, fresh oregano, dry oregeno, black pepper, sea salt

OK this one is probably a winner, but does anyone here avoid grilling vegetables which as a food preparation technique produces AGE's albeit at much lower metals than animal products?

 

(8) African sweet potato peanut stew: Onions, green peppers, garlic, sweet potatoes, cabbage, tomatoes, chili flakes, cumin, cinnamon, curry powder, peanut butter, lime juice, peanuts, cilantro, black pepper, sea salt.

Peanut aflatoxin, omega 6:3 ratio ... but what about all the other great ingredients here?

 

(9) Korean bbq tempeh: tempeh, coconut sugar, what free tamari, brown rice vinegar, lan chi paste, sesame oil, ginger, garlic, cornstarch

Why the sesame oil?  Not crazy about the added sugar or cornstarch, but the sesame oil is easily oxidized and again omega 6:3 ratio.  Would you care why/why not?

 

(10) Cucumber salad: cucumbers, toasted sesame oil, clover honey, kelp, what free tamari, cayenne pepper, scallions, ginger, garlic, black sesame seeds.

Same kelp and sesame oil issues as above, but this sesame oil is "toasted" if you were OK with the sesame oil above, would toasted cross the line with increased oxidation and free radical formation?

 

Of course there are many strategies to attenuate the "veto" ingredient (assuming its quantity is material which may or may not be the case):

·         Kripalu always available spices include cinnamon, cumin/cariander/tumeric mix, black pepper, cayenne, cardamom, garlic, ginger, and pure tumeric. 

·         Likewise apple cider and balsamic vinegars are always available.  Ditto for some great teas including

·         Herbal teas are always available to brew (not counting many caffinated ones like yerba mate, organic chai, etc.): Chamomile, hibiscus, ginger root, chamomile, rooibos, peppermint 

·         Enormous salad bar

 

OK, for part II - thoughts on any of these what look like pure winners pretty much (objections) that follow?

 

·         Summer ratatouille: Garlic, onions, eggplant, green bell peppers, zucchini & yellow squash, plum tomatoes, tomato paste, parsley, basil, black pepper, sea salt

·         Italian herbed  vegetable soup: broccoli, carrots, cauliflower, tomatoes, tomato puree, onions, celery, garlic, parsley, basil, thyme, black peppercorns, sea salt

·         Raw slaw: Green & red cabbage, onions, sunflower seeds, carrots, almonds, parsley, radishes ( sunflower seeds not perfect but overwhelmed by other ingredients.  This one also has a dressing of olive oil, lemon juice, apple cider vinegar & honey).

·         Shiitake risotto: Farro, onions, shitake mushrooms, white wine

·         Tuscan beans: Cannellini beans, bay leaf, onions, garlic, basil, sage, thme, lemon zest, carrots, celery, olive oil, sea salt

·         Sauteed green with garlic: braising greens, carrots, garlic, olive oil

·         Tofu with miso: Tofu, stone ground mustard, white wine ( the miso has organic soybeans, organic rice koji & sea salt).

·         Raw spring fling salad: yellow & zucchini squash, red bell peppers, parsely, cherries (dressing is olive oil, dijon mustard & apple cider vinegar, although not quite perfect I suppose as the dijon mustard while no sugar added with only mustard seed / vinegar / salt, does have sulfites... would you care?).

·         Raisin & date chutney: dates, raisins, fennel seeds, cumin, coriander, lime & orange juices, ginger, jalapenyo peppers, cilantro, sea salt (dried fruits are calorically dense but let's assume in moderation here).

·         Punjabi cucumber raita: Plain yogurt, cucumber, raisins, cilatro, coriander, cumin, brown mustard seed, olive oi, black pepper, sea salt

·         Waldorf salad: apples, lemons, celery, raisins, honey, walnuts, canola mayonnaise, yogurt, cinnamon, black pepper, sea salt

·         Roasted roots: beets, carrots, parsnips, olive oil, sea salt

·         Whipped yam: sweet potatoes & sea salt ( object to higher GI from whipping?)

·         Tapenade: Kalamata olives, garlic, capers, lemon, olive oil

·         Baked arame: arame, carrots, cabbage, tahini, what free tamari, sesame seeds

·         Stone ground mustard: organic grain vinegar, organic spices, salt, organic mustard seed

·         Cilantro mint chutney: Cilantro, mint, ginger, olive oil, jalapeno peppers, onions, lemon, clover honey, garam masala, sea salt.

·         Picked radish: radish, umeboshi vinegar

·         Pesto: arugula, olive oil, walnuts, garlic, black pepper, sea salt

·         Always lots of basic ingredients at the Buddha bar: pure legumes, steamed winter mix vegetables or greens, brown rice, etc.

 

Lastly, any global considerations: would you avoid almost all of these relatively "clean" entrees too for some reason, such as no control over olive oil quality / conditions, added salt, etc.?

 

This would put you in the "I'll make all my dishes from scratch using pure Kripalu ingredients" camp.  

 

Thanks for your input - 

 

I think the real vibrancy of this community comes from our collective participatory wisdom: pooling, sharing, an exchanging our unique philosophy, interpretation of the literature (if applicable), practices, and experiences,   

Edited by Mechanism

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh wow! They really feed you like you're ROYALTY over there at Kripalu! It all looks so beautifully done and thoughtful, as long as it stayed vegan, I'd probably let my dietary noose go loose just a bit? Enjoy life! I'm sure you already are! I really wish I could afford a stay like that -- I'm sure they always need dishwashers and waitstaff...

 

But if you insist on editing up their meal choices, for me I think you've focused on the same bolded ingredients I'd possibly nix, too:

 

I don't like "coconut milk" because of saturated fat concerns. But at Kripalu and while practicing yoga, meditating, hiking, meeting cool new people, I'd probably relax and eat it and enjoy anyway.

 

I don't like sunflower oil because of omega six concerns, plus I just don't trust commodity oils very much anymore, thanks to the opposite of ignorance is bliss.

 

With kombo I don't eat it in my everyday diet because it has too much iodine. Again, though, on a sweet yoga vacation? I'd eat it with peace and gratitude, and enjoy every moment.

 

Basmati rice? Too high GL for me. Unless I'd follow consumption with some kick ass sweaty cardio vinyasa flow! Arsnic? Aww gaw it's so easy to collapse into perfectionism even in paradise.

 

Ghee I'd leave alone (not vegan; saturated fat...). Coconut sugar I'd also leave out. Sesame oil, toasted sesame oil -- forgive me if I'm wrong but isn't sesame oil sometimes used to give atherosclerotic plaques to mice? Or have I missed something. I wouldn't eat it. There are AGEs concerns with "toasted" (eg, heated) oils?Just me, though. I'd probably leave out the peanuts and peanut butter, too. Why? There's so much other great menu items why stuff myself with peanut butter haha... I always think about Colin Campbell and aflatoxins amongst rich Chinese kids when thinking about peanut butter: totally spoiled my love of peanut butter :-(

 

I have no problem with some types of "kelp" but again there's crazy iodine in some of it.

 

If I was over there sitting beside you in the dining hall, smiling, happy, I'd probably be chowing down on mostly their backyard local raw salad fruits and veggies. Legumes, leafy greens, nuts, seeds, more and more yes please god I feel like such a pig! And I'm sure their veggies and fruits are probably organic and awesome, fresh, healthy, grown in love and happiness, highest standards, they probably offer garden tours and volunteer weeding opportunities. I'm sure they don't kill hungry rabbits and squirrels and deer! I'd eat their local produce like a fool! And thank everyone I saw -- glazed cultish smiling I can't stop -- thank all involved in getting these treasures to table, down my gullet, into my system, and expressed in my smiling happy yoga.

 

My advice = enjoy, Enjoy, ENJOY!!! And why are you even on the Internet on your computer posting on some silly online forum?! Go get yourself into some backbends and inversions and go hike some mountain trails!

Edited by Sthira

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for sharing all that goodness, BTW! And I'm sure you've no doubt heard that phrase "thanks for sharing!" Like a million times?! Now I commandeth thee to GO BLISS OUT on some Krishna Das and Kirtan!!!!! Aww fuck I'd die of happiness I think

Edited by Sthira

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow Mechanism that menu is incredible.

 

In general, I agree with Sthira on most of his points. I'd definitely avoid the ghee for ethical reasons. Other than that, I'd be (perhaps too) tempted to try just about all the other dishes you listed, including those with seaweed and various oils. They just sound too good to pass up, at least in small quantities to experience them. I'd try to pile it on at the huge salad bar, but I'd be seriously worried about overdoing it on the cooked dishes and not being able to engage in the yoga sessions!

 

Paradoxically, such an extensive vegan menu might make the Kripalu Center less attractive a venue for the next CR Conference from my perspective. Too tempting and too distracting. I know it's sad, but I'm not accustomed to having so many delicious options, already cooked for me and basically "free" (once I've paid to be there).

 

I wonder if others would have similar reservations, and might rather not be tempted.

 

--Dean

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^^^ not me, man, I'd be swinging free from the dietary vines like a high on life orangutan, and I'd paw every bit of it raw and fresh and ripe. Can you say DECADENT?!

 

So as usual you're probably right about the cooked stuff -- I'd probably have swollen limbs from dumped sodium which is usually the problem with vegan prepared dishes for the pampered -- too salty for us living pure dirty feet types.

 

How long are you there? What program did you sign up to take? I'd never want to leave, I think, and would have to be escorted out to the highway again for more drifting away. Man you're lucky!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You know, not to drone on and on like an idiot, but I've been listening to a lot of podcasts on healthy eating and nutrition and whatnot. And I'll repeat that sentiment I'm sure we all share -- ain't it a goddamed fucking pity that our tax dollars go to subsidize poison rather than the healthy food you're now enjoying?

 

Just imagine if all people in Canada and the US (and all people globally) could eat the meals you're eating daily rather than the junk we're sold? What if government subsidized not meat dairy fructose junk but collards and raspberries for the masses. Imagine ghetto kids growing up on spinach and pistachios rather than fucking McDonalds? Think there'd be less crime? Less obesity? Fewer rapes and gang violence and random school shootings and idiot psychopath politicians like this Trump fucker? Think people would be kinder toward one another and ecosystems and plants and all the cool animals here on planet earth if the focus of their stupid profit shifted from poison to plants?

 

Sorry to rant, I know I sound manic, but when are we gonna change? I'm not saying capitalism is wrong -- but why can't we shift the profit motives from junk food to healthy food? Wouldn't that make this society an easier functioning society?

 

Don't lose your idealism. And dont gate yourself away in suburban isolation and forget your good but struggling brothers and sisters, man...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sthira,

 

Love your posts. Thank you for sharing, we have similar culinary perspectives and ingredient concerns and have arrived at the same basic conclusion, OK in moderation for most but not all of the items ( Inwoukd shy away most from sesame seed, sunflower and safflower & peanut oil - with my low BMI and active lifestyle my arteries can handle it esp with the vinegar and spices ( did you notice my list of available spices and non-caffeinated teas above - I use more than one tea variety per cup for synergistic and complementary anti-inflammatory mechanisms, taste & fun) . Keep posting Sthira, I love your energy! For cost of you share a roomate and stay in a dorm.

 

Before I turn back to Kripalu, I'd like to invite CRONies both regular posters and the lurkers who come here to read, which ingredients would boycott an entree from my 10 above and other comments. This is fun, maybe we need more of this social CR to reinvigorate the board Let's keep this thread going.

Now Sthira the cheapest ticket to Kripalu I know is to do a day pass ( about $ 120 per day I think) plus the cost of housing making your own arrangements vs to stay in a dorm with a roomate. The day pass includes 3 meals a day so don't forget the food savings! Cal Kripalu for more options if you are interested.

 

Dean, I do feel like I am in heaven. My workshop in Real Love has a heavy gratitude component. I am in bliss now with my wife Mrs. Mechanism ( only Saul And IK- know my real name and were sworn to secrecy but we [or any CR member coming] can join the inner circle) at my side, at Tanglewood listening to one of Garrison Keeler's last performances for a prairie home companion (cheapest seats we can find - lawn seats but right behind the big screen so see it great). Saul tells me he is not a big fan but he is missing out - we

It was a 5 minute walk to Tanglewood from Kripalu.

 

Sthira, we depart tomorrow morning but with many happy memories, including all the fun Saul and I had together including some sharing CR & IF perspectives. We live close enough that if it is not on a weekend and have some advanced notice can probably meet up with any of you for fun.

 

Oh, and Dean, don't be intimidated by the yoga. I have two left feet and have the flexibility and agility of a road sign. But the atmosphere is so refreshing - not like a fancy spa but an open arm accepting atmosphere of authenticity and community. Plenty of Yoga novices like me and yoga optional. Love the local outdoors and hiking, and other parts too.

 

Not sure how distracting the meals if it's just dinner Dean and you can always opt out of the ambrosia but why not dip in, you only live once!

 

Some disclaimers: Except for a couple spots ( one area by the enterence and a computer room or on your smartphone / cell-enabled tablet from your room), it is technology-free -- that may be a deal breaker for some, but I find if I need to use the device it is a short walk (everything is in one central building).

 

Also food wise to be clear not all entrees listed every day, they alternate. But basic staples including two huge salad bar rows, one omnivore but mostly pescovegetarian and the other vegetarian with the Buddha bar all vegan I think. But the variety is usually great. More examples from tonight:

 

A) Sautéed broccoli rabe and arugula: broccoli rabe and arugula with olive oil

B) roasted tomatoes: tomatoes, garlic, oregano, olive oil

C) vegan avocado raita: avocados, lemon juice, mint, bell peppers, salt, black pepper

D) split pea Dahl: split peas, ginger, bay leaf, cumin, cloves, celery, carrots, lemon, astafoetida, tumeric, sunflower oil, sea salt

E) Millet mash: Miller, cauliflower, celery seeds, parsley

F) Broccoli and Napa cabbage: Broccoli and Napa cabbage (and nothing added)

G) cream of tomato soup: tomatoes, carrots, onions, basil, marjoram, lime juice, rice milk, garlic, cilantro, chili flakes, salt.

 

I didn't list it all ( sautéed Swiss chard, white fish with summer germinate, roasted carrots with mint, cauliflower and curry peas, etc.). And that's just the new entrees at dinner tonight, so as far as I am concerned there's always lots to choose from.

 

 

But Saul is much more of a Kripalu expert than me coming here a few times annually for ? 10 years. I don't want to be held responsible if it is a flop, but would enjoy the company of any CR visitor meeting up there. Saul, your thoughts?

 

FYI, I was just discussing getting together, not a formal conference ( a friendly informs hello, nothing formal though if Saul or someone decided to organize it, I would gladly attend - though to my knowledge, and I could be mistaken, Kripalu does not host conferences (and I sheepishly confess I am too overcommitted [ IE, Ms. mechanism would kill me] to get involved in logistics & so I'll leave it to Saul and others if you want to organize something more formal close by at a center that does host them ( there are a ton of health retreats in the Berkshires and I have little doubt that one of them would work) with meal afterwards at Kripalu ( you can just buy the meal passes only if you are just stopping by ). Happy to greet / meet / hello others in common weekend meeting place & Kripalu.... With or without a formal conference, totally worth it though - you have to taste the WFPB ambrosia for yourself ????

 

If you don't Love the outdoors / hiking / yoga / menu and are passing through the city, while not Kripalu ( I dare say, what is?) and a restaurant, Life Alive in Boston is pretty darn cool so if anyone is traveling to the opposite side of MA, would love to meet up with you over a weekend too.

 

But not to hijack my own thead, would love to hear from others to join us in this discussion which from the 10 entrees in the original post above you would shun. So Dean, you wouldn't veto any of the entrees above with so many other great choices? If so (everyone), which one and why?

Edited by Mechanism

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mechanism,

 

I too am enjoying this thread. Thanks for starting it! I hope other join in. Regarding:

 

So Dean, you wouldn't veto any of the enters above with so many other great choices? If so (everyone), which one and why? 

 

Obviously I couldn't eat everything you listed, although I might try... I'd have to pick and chose, and from a simple list of ingredient I can't say how the chips would fall - I'd have to see and smell them to see what strikes my fancy. I can say I wouldn't veto any of the entrees you listed out of hand, simply as a result of the semi-objectionable ingredients they contained (except for those containing ghee, for ethical reasons). If I'm only there for a couple days, the oils (and salt) aren't going to kill me. 

 

As I said, my concern wouldn't be avoiding objectionable items or ingredients, but eating too much of all the hyper-palatable fare. I'm not worried about yoga per se - I've done it and enjoy it. Instead I'm worried about doing yoga when bloated from eating too much!

 

--Dean

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And I think you're right for not doing yoga while bloated even with the purported healthiest of foods. Yogis are advised to practice on an empty stomach. There are good reasons for empty stomach practice (which I don't always do, sometimes I eat before yoga, sadly...). Particularly in deep twists, and even mild twists, I can actually feel and even see blobby food matter in my pipes. Sometimes after I've eaten, taken a yoga class that involves twisting (and nearly all poses involve twisting, ringing of the abdomen) the first thing that happens is I need to take a big bowel movement. And this doesn't always feel natural -- as if the yoga twists are pushing the digesting food too quickly out of my body.

 

Maybe that's not true, maybe that's more yoga woo, but there is a reason yogis advise to eat after practice rather than before.

 

Sthira,

 

Love your posts. Thank you for sharing...

 

...Keep posting Sthira, I love your energy!

Thank you for the encouragement, Mechanism, and I offer you the same. I'm sure Dean and Tom and others who post beautifully researched, time-chomping posts here often feel ignored, crickets, as Tom wrote elsewhere, and wonder wtf post if no one cares and no one reads.

 

I care, I read, even if I don't always express gratitude. I'll try to say thank you more often, like perhaps you learned in the seminar, but then again, one post after another saying wow thanks, gee thanks, oh thanks so much can get pretty tedious, too, haha... So moderation even in expressing gratitude...

 

Nothing in life is easy, is it, even being polite isn't easy!

 

Please know I appreciate everyone's post here -- group hug haha...

Edited by Sthira

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sthira,

 

I just wanted to express my thanks to you too. You provide these forums with much needed whimsy and perspective. We often take ourselves and our ideas far too seriously, and you help me (and I bet others too) to recognize that's not always the best approach to life. And thanks to you too Mechanism!

 

Things seem to have really picked up around here lately, it seems since shortly after the conference, right after I bemoaned the impending demise of our merry little band. It seems I was wrong, and I'm really happy about that. Everyone has stepped it up a notch, which I for one really appreciate. It's a lot more fun around here when there are lots of people sharing. Thanks everyone!

 

But as you said, it gets awkward and tedious posting (and reading) content-less "thank yous!" So I'm not going to get all gushy about it or anything.

 

--Dean

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Awesome! We can build an online community of longevity enthusiasts even if calorie restriction in humans turns out to be a dud. All of us are interested in arresting aging and so let's follow whatever leads arise. Many heads are better than one, and everyone has unique talent and skill. I like the honesty and sincerity here.

 

And I love what I got in my email today from Josh Mittledorf: "I believe that all we have to do to make ourselves younger is to turn on the genes that were expressed when we were young, and turn off the genes that are expressed when we are old. This will require both knowledge and technique..."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gratitude, inquiry, challenge, and encouragement - some of the most basic aspects of community, right here are CRsociety.  It is great the board has picked up, I look forward to reading more... For this thread, I assume the relative lack though not absence of responses (though the two so far have been great) to conformity to the above practices?  I am looking to kick up some healthy controversy here - would love to see some vetoes on items 1-10 or even the "perfect" choices below... Let's not be shy I'm sure there are stricter practices out there, and much to learn from our idiosyncratic food choices, many of which may be made by routine ultimately, but may have originally been based on interpretation of the nutrition and CR literature

 

Not sure re: the movement science.  Dean if you can jog not long after your daily meal (as per another thread), you can probably do OK with Yoga after food which can help with GI if not overdone!

 

Saul, you have been uncharactersically reticent on Kripalu - any wise words from your Kripalu visit and longtime ties to the center, thoughts on CRsociety get togethers prior to a full two years at Arizona?

Edited by Mechanism

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mechanism,

 

I too would be interested in hearing what foods others would veto and why. I know Michael would have some strong opinions, and probably wouldn't eat any of it, preferring to stick with fare he'd bring him, as he did at the CR Conference. But I wouldn't want to pester him, he's very busy you know...

 

--Dean

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi ALL!

 

I was at Kripalu at the same time as Mechanism -- we had an ~ 1.5 day overlap, were together at several meals, went on two 90 minute hikes together, and both attended two evening presentations.  I greatly enjoyed his company.

 

I agree with most of Sthira has said.

 

I want to clarify some points:  Kripalu has morning yoga classes at 6:30AM -- which one goes to BEFORE breakfast (those who go to breakfast skip morning yoga).  And the evening yoga classes (which I also always go to) start at 4:15 -- BEFORE dinner (and very much after lunch).  So you're never doing yoga on a full stomach -- and you're ready to eat, right after yoga.

 

My wife originally introduced me to Kripalu -- initially, I simply enjoyed the food there, ignoring the yoga.

 

This changed -- Kripalu is the outfit that led me into yoga.

 

:)xyz

 

  --  Saul

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All:

Rather than just extend the yoga retreat lovefest, I thought I would actually give an opinion on your questions ...

 

(1) Punjabi red lentil dahl: Red lentils, tomatoes, onions, tumeric, paprika, brown mustard seed, asafoetido, garlic, ginger, coriander, garam masala, coconut milk, cilantro, cayenne pepper, sunflower oil, black pepper, sea salt
I don't have a big problem with the coconut oil as my lipids are low so no big deal with a bit of SFA, but sunflower oil? would you veto due to the higher omega 6 to omega 3 ratio, or not care since it seems to be pretty low down the ingredient list?


In this case, I would say that the coconut milk (not, NB, coconut oil) is so far down the list, after a long list of spices, that the amount really must be tiny or it'd be inedible. the sunflower oil even more so.

Also, you don't mention the sea salt: sea salt is of course no healthier than regular table salt (less so, since it's not iodized beyond what's naturally in the stuff), and it only takes a very small amount to add up. I doubt I would pass on a single meal on this basisbut I wouldn't make regular use of it, and if I were going to be at a reatreat for a week it would reinforce my habit of packing my own food ...

I would also say that there is reason to think that SaFA may be bad for you for reasons other than your lipid profile, and they should be monitored to keep your intake <10% of energy no matter what your lipid profile looks like.
 

Kitchari: Yellow moong dahl beans, basmati, coconut oil, cumin, asafetida, tumeric, brown mustard seed, cilantro, black pepper, sea salt

High GI of basmati, saturated fat from coconut oil


I'd have to agree in this case: this meal is out for just those reasons. I'd also say this dish is just likely to be way too carb-dense, period, even if they replaced the coconut oil with high-phenolic EVOO and had magic low-GI rice.
 

(4) Kale with mustard seeds: Kale, brown mustard seed, safflower oil
Why did they use safflower oil? Same high omega 6:3 ratio issues as sunflower oil


Yeah, almost guaranteed to be way too much to ignore.
 

(5) Punjabi cauliflower & peas: Cauliflower, peas, ghee, ginger, tumeric, coriander, cumin, cayenne pepper, cilantro sea salt
Why the ghee - clarified butter is better than the conventional one (less lactose & casein, possible prebiotic value), but it is still a butter (SFAs, elevates IGF-1, etc)


I can't imagine it raises IGF-1 — that's from protein and (via insulin, and to a much lesser extent) carbs, not fat — but it is processed saturated fat, and clearly there's going to be a lot of it here. Pass.
 

(6) Black beans & carrots: Black beans, black eyed peas, carrots, kombu, sea salt
Potential high iodine in the kombu... same issue with "adzuki beans with ginger": adzuki beans, kombu,carrots, sea salt


Kombu scares the shit out of me. Realistically, one meal is not likely to destroy one's thyroid, but I'm hypersensitive about this myself. Pass!
 

(7) Grilled vegetables: Zucchini & yellow squas, eggplant, red bell peppers, olive oil, garlic, fresh oregano, dry oregeno, black pepper, sea salt

OK this one is probably a winner, but does anyone here avoid grilling vegetables which as a food preparation technique produces AGE's albeit at much lower metals than animal products?


Similar global problem as with all the dishes you specifically ask about: I wouldn't worry about one meal of it, but when there's something wrong with almost everything you're putting in your mouth for a week ...!

 

(8) African sweet potato peanut stew: Onions, green peppers, garlic, sweet potatoes, cabbage, tomatoes, chili flakes, cumin, cinnamon, curry powder, peanut butter, lime juice, peanuts, cilantro, black pepper, sea salt.

Peanut aflatoxin, omega 6:3 ratio ... but what about all the other great ingredients here?


I don't think you have to worry about aflatoxin if the peanuts were grown in the US: we screen them rather well. The omegas aren't good, and you're are evidently unaware of their possible EFA-independent effect on atherosclerosis, possibly mediated by lectins and/or triglyceriede structure.(1-3) But they're down past "chili flakes, cumin, cinnamon, curry powder," and so not likely present in terribly large amounts.

 

(9) Korean bbq tempeh: tempeh, coconut sugar, what free tamari, brown rice vinegar, lan chi paste, sesame oil, ginger, garlic, cornstarch

Why the sesame oil?  Not crazy about the added sugar or cornstarch, but the sesame oil is easily oxidized and again omega 6:3 ratio.  Would you care why/why not?


Coconut sugar as second ingredient: out!

 

(10) Cucumber salad: cucumbers, toasted sesame oil, clover honey, kelp, what free tamari, cayenne pepper, scallions, ginger, garlic, black sesame seeds.

Same kelp and sesame oil issues as above, but this sesame oil is "toasted" if you were OK with the sesame oil above, would toasted cross the line with increased oxidation and free radical formation?


Ack. Horrendous, evil stuff: out, out, out!

 

         Enormous salad bar

 

I wouldn't eat all that pressboard (tho' I can tolerate a small amount in a smoothie).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(1) Punjabi red lentil dahl: Red lentils, tomatoes, onions, tumeric, paprika, brown mustard seed, asafoetido, garlic, ginger, coriander, garam masala, coconut milk, cilantro, cayenne pepper, sunflower oil, black pepper, sea salt

 

MR, I'm surprised you don't object to black pepper... all that piperine!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Those food options sound delicious!

 

Regarding basmati rice, I've had good experience with this one in particular (organic california-grown germinated brown rice):

http://www.lundberg.com/product/organic-sprouted-brown-basmati-rice/

 

I usually rinse it a few times, then cook it al dente pasta style with fenugreek seed, cumin seed, coriander seed, turmeric root, ground black pepper, salt, with a bit of onion, garlic, and parsley.  Then, I refrigerate it.  Then, consume it with a meal (often tossed with a bit of 300-400 polyphenol EVOO.)  Consumed this way, I don't see any major effect on my post-prandial glucose numbers -- much less of an effect than I might get eating a big serving of cauliflower with asparagus and onions.  I can practically file this food under vegetables.

 

With safflower oil, I'm not against it so long as I see the key phrase "High-Oleic" next to it (some of those reach upwards of 85%+ MUFA, much more than your average EVOO.)  Coconut / dairy / sesame oil / peanuts / soy, I do avoid for now.  Coconut sugar doesn't bug me, but I might prefer to see "High antioxidant buckwheat honey", nutrient-rich molasses, organic dates, etc.  I tend view coconut sugar as basically sugar, while honey / molasses / dates seem a bit more food-like to me.

 

I don't avoid grilled vegetables at most restaurants, but I don't consume them at home.  If I have the option to have these steamed / boiled, I'll almost always request that, unless I'm feeling dangerous.

 

Kombu / kelp doesn't bug me.  I don't go out of my way to eat these foods, but I don't avoid them.  When I'm not eating much seafood / seaweed (heavy metal avoidance, dioxins, etc.) I often supplement iodine.

 

Roasted root vegetables, I usually avoid.  These tend to push my blood sugar up higher than anything else I can eat.  I prefer these steamed / boiled, or lightly pressure cooked and cooled.

 

Regarding the legumes, I've had good experience with this one:

http://www.bobsredmill.com/chana-dal-beans.html

 

These contain more fiber than they contain net carbohydrates -- that's a better ratio than you would get eating most other foods / vegetables (more fiber : net carbs than eating lettuce, asparagus, arugula, broccoli, etc.)  They're hulled, so you're skipping many of the anti-nutrients in the outer layer.  I soak overnight with warm water to remove some of the anti-nutrients in the bean.  Then, I pressure cook them to further destroy lectins / anti-nutrients and increase their polyphenol density with herbs + spices.  Mendosa has a good write up on these beans, where the GI might be as low as 5 or 11.

Edited by sirtuin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you for your replies, Michael, TomBAvoider, sirtuin: I find examining our different dietary practices and choices illuminating and a great basis learning from each other's research & real life application perspectives.

 

Michael: Agree with your play-by-play comments.  My reference to IGF-1 was a typo, greatest concern there is animal products.  I meant to address sodium as a potential problem at the very beginning of my post ahead of the lists, and I agree can be a major issue.  My BP is with systolic around 90-110 and diastolic 60-70 range.   This raises the question, though whether above and beyond adhering the US dietary guidelines whether to minimize added salt either way given it's association with GI malignancy, and I am a bit of a purist and prefer no added salt either way, I take it same for you?  I prefer iodinated or non for the same reason and do not supplement at this time ( my wife cooks same dishes for both of us, so yes some sodium that way).

 

I agree SAFa < 10% being a good idea even with great lipid profile as it may promote atherosclerosis including CAD either way.  Are there other rationales for keeping low ?

 

You agreed with my rationale rejecting the following: "Kitchari: Yellow moong dahl beans, basmati, coconut oil, cumin, asafetida, tumeric, brown mustard seed, cilantro, black pepper, sea salt" responding "I'd also say this dish is just likely to be way too carb-dense, period, even if they replaced the coconut oil with high-phenolic EVOO and had magic low-GI rice."

 

What if there was no EVOO, it had no coconut oil, and the rice was black rice ( much lower GI than even wild rice ), still too high GI/GL?  I think of the moong mahl as a good carb with high phytonutrients and low GI, and ditto for black rice - would you stay away then?  If so, why and what would you have instead as caloric sources if you had the choice?

 

For "Grilled vegetables: Zucchini & yellow squash, eggplant, red bell peppers, olive oil, garlic, fresh oregano, dry oregano, black pepper, sea salt" you responded " Similar global problem as with all the dishes"  - do you mean salt or the AGE issue I brought up wit this item?  I tend not to be too concerned with grilled vegetables as long as they do not look charred (vs. cut out the char) since this seems to produce a lot less AGE than grilled meats and dry carbs.  Your thoughts?

 

You raised a great point about peanut aflatoxins not being a big issue in the U.S. due to testing.  I was not aware the testing was so rigorous in the U.S., thanks for bringing it to my attention.  Often getting the sourcing is not straightforward and may not be identifiable.  In such settings do you go ahead and have some raw peanuts ( I am aware of course this is still not your favored EVOO vs. smaller amounts of saturated fat sources and you try to stay away from too much PUFAs aside from the EFAs in optimal ratios / quantities due to concerns esp. in the CR population ) ?  I am wondering though whether if obtained from a non-ethnic store/brand/restaurant it is far more common to be sourced from the U.S. than another country ( far from certain but a fairly likely assumption )?  I see peanut oil and peanuts not infrequently part of otherwise healthy staples   ( no worries, I can take it if this is just bad news here! ).

 

I assume the objection with toasted sesame oil is both the PUFA lipid profile, exacerbated by heating generation of ROS which it is especially vulnerable to with it's unsaturated profile?  Would you avoid raw sesame seeds too?  They appear to have a number of unique lignans such as sesamin and I wonder whether worth incorporating in the diet for diversification of these vs. not outweighed by these kinds of concern.  I have also wondered the same thing about pine nuts too, same take on these?  I think pumpkin seeds are clearly better with a more favorable O3:06 ratio and a great source of zinc, wouldn't you say?

 

TomBAvoider, are objecting to black pepper due to piperine as you stated, or did you rather mean safrole which has been toxic on visceral injection in a rodent study ( according to nutritionfacts was human equivalent to half a cup injection but I can't confirm: his take that human study benefits >> animal study theoretical risks )?  I did not incorporate it into my diet until I read about it's effect on increasing curcumin absorption in my daily two tablespoons.  Is anyone here ( that includes you TomBAvoider, I wasn't sure if you were serious or not) avoiding it, or setting an upper limit how much daily black pepper is acceptable per day? 

 

Thanks for sharing Sirtuin.  I also favor legumes and the point on the higher GL with roasting technique of the root vegetables well-taken.  Interesting you were able to reduce the GI load of jasmine rice with the EVOO.  Goes to show how much oils and dosing may make a difference in the glycemic load.  I have avoided since I found a huge excursion ( don't remember how high) reproducible, a lot worse than for even conventional basmati white rice - even using the re-heating to increase resistant starch method.  Probably my portions were larger +/- genetic differences.

Edited by Mechanism

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nope, didn't mean safrole, meant piperine. I am largely avoiding black pepper because of it. As to the reason, you yourself mentioned it here:

 

I did not incorporate it into my diet until I read about it's effect on increasing curcumin absorption in my daily two tablespoons.

 

And that is the exact reason why I avoid it: piperine sharply increases absorption - BUT of not only curcumin, but all sorts of molecules, which is why it is so frequently used by supplement makers to increase absorption. Consuming piperine means I am sharply increasing the absorption of bioactive substances from whatever random food the pepper happened to be paired with - there is no control here to limit it just to X (curcumin or otherwise). That's like taking a very potent drug with completely random effects (dependent on whatever else happens to be metabolized at the moment the piperine hits). When consuming F&V, we are relying on natural interactions between the various nutrients - throwing a firebomb like piperine into the mix completely upsets the apple cart of those interactions. Studies show that consuming f.ex. apples or any other F or V (or functional food) gives us health benefits. Note, that those studies depend on dietary amounts of various beneficial substances in the apple or any other food. Now you throw in a chemical that dramatically changes the amount of substances absorbed from that food, and now the studies no longer apply - because you are dealing with supra-doses of the nutrients. The dose makes the poison. In certain amounts those nutrients are beneficial - as studies show, in amounts naturally found in those foods. The studies DO NOT necessarily show that the same nutrients are still beneficial at wildly different doses - frequently it is the opposite. Piperine is such a powerful agent, that it alters the metabolism of bioactive substances in food. We have not studied what happens when that occurs. Why would I do such a thing? I'd much rather consume foods based on studies that featured natural amounts of nutrients in natural interaction, without highly distorting agents like piperine. It might be good, it might be bad - but the point is I don't know. With the studies, I at least know what I'm eating for the F&V etc., so I stick to that. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very interesting, I can see the concern with the many phytotoxins and potential other environmental exposures. Are you also concerned re: a leaky gut connection / exposure of antigens that may trigger autoimmunity ( I am not aware of such an association / whether it wild promote this kind of theoretical barrier impairment). Is this a majority concurrence amongst most CR folks here, or minority view? I'm curious what the consensus is here...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Leaky gut", yes, a concern, but the remedy here is to get tons of fiber and not use too many breaching agents (like ibuprofen). The F&V we consume do have a lot of phytotoxins, but again, it's all about dosage. In small doses - i.e. the kind we are liable to consume naturally in our diet, they can act as hormetic agents, but I would not want to supercharge them with piperine, because at that point all bets are off wrt. dosage. Again, for me, the principle is always "first do no harm" - and we just don't know enough about potential issues with piperine; for that matter, we have not been consuming black pepper for that long (for Northern European upper classes, a few centuries, and more broadly in Europe just a few generations). Too much of a gamble for me, until there's more info and more research. YMMV.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you for sharing TomBAvoider, I can understand the concern. I am at least somewhat reassured based on the very wide distribution- apparently in the top 2-3 spices by at least some sources: https://www.reference.com/food/two-bestselling-spices-world-45a2ec12a52d2818#

Was not aware of the recent introduction though.

 

Do any other foods or spices fall in this category where you would avoid or limit based on similar rationale, or are black peppers unique here?

 

Would also be curious if others are doing the opposite- eg, taking with tumeric and/or flax, etc, to increase absorption.

Edited by Mechanism

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

More recent nicer examples ( they use extra virgin olive oil, a plus) -- food has always been wonderful but I think these ingredients have been even better! Unless otherwise noted, only objection is the salt ( which was mild)

 

1) Fennel, sultanas, chile: fennel, olive oil, raisins, orange juice, Rosemary, habanero chili peppers, basmatic vinegar (smoothie oranges would be better than OJ).

 

2) Fish verte: White fish, red bell peppers, sweet white miso, cilantro, parsley, Dijon mustard, garlic, lemon juice, olive oil, capers, dill. The sweet white miso = soybeans, organic rice koji, sea salt.

 

3) Roasted quinoa pilaf: quinoa, carrots, cabbage, olive oil, sage, thyme, celery seeds, celery, umeboshi vinegar, parsley, sea salt

 

4) Curry vegetables: corn, green peas, sunflower oil, asafaetida, yellow mustard seed, turmeric, ginger, coriander, garam masala, sea salt ( wish the used EVOO rather than sunflower oil, but core ingredients are great including the turmeric ).

 

5) Lentil loaf: Green lentils, bay leaf, onions, carrots, celery, garlic, thyme, oregano, brown rice flour, walnuts, tomato paste, cumin, Worcestershire sauce, black pepper, sea salt

[[ the worcestershire = apple cider vinegar, Tamara [ water, soy beans, wheat salt ], molasses, agave syrup (not a fan of added sugar/fructose but was dose seemed small), salt, lemon, ginger purée, tamarind, garlic powder, xanthan gum (why?), allspice, chili pepper, shiitake mushroom, cloves, orange extract, natural smoke flavor (not a fan of this but it is only in the worcestershire), natural onion flavor (ditto ]].

 

6) Red rice: Long grain brown rice, olive oil, thyme, garlic, tomato paste, red wine burgundy, chili powder, cayenne pepper, sea salt.

 

7) Summer chili: Pinio beans, tomatoes, onions, celery, yellow & zucchini squash, garlic, paprika, greed &the red bell peppers, chili powder, red chili pepper flakes, cayenne pepper, tomato paste & purée, cumin, olive oil, sea salt.

 

8) Raw sunny broccoli salad: broccoli, sunflower seeds, raisins, cashews, onions

[dressing = poppy seeds, onions, clover honey (not a fan of added sugar in general, but forest through the trees this is great), apple cider vinegar, olive oil, yellow mustard, sea salt).

 

9) steamed collards with sunflower seeds: collard greens & sunflower seeds

 

10) raw cucumber avocado soup - romaine lettuce, cucumber, lemon, garlic, avocados, mint, sea salt.

 

The Buddha bar always has a variety of simpler options such as tempeh with sauerkraut: (tempeh, sauerkraut, wheat free tamari, brown rice vinegar) or baked wakame ( wakame, carrots, cabbage, tahini, wheat-free tamari, sesame seeds).

 

Various usual condiments e.g. Pea&mint purée has peas, garlic, lemon zest, mint, and olive oil.... Tapenade has kalamata olives, garlic, capers, lemons, and olive oil... Stone ground mustard has grain vinegar, spices & mustard seed.

 

Various usual herbal teas including rooibos, mint, ginger, chamomile, hibiscus, etc. but had to remind myself regarding pay d'arco tea which has some interesting anti-inflammatory properties and is derived from the tree bark.

 

Notwithstanding the notes above, does anybody object my dubbing Kripalu the healthiest place to eat on earth? ( that is of prepared foods in a conventional setting - Dean's kitchen does not meet "inclusion criterion" for this study! ). Growing & making your own is always number one of course, and you can always find a specialty setting such as Dean's Costa Rica retreat where items can be really made to order..... But impressive, no? Now you can see why Saul is always raving about the Yoga retreat - Kripalu has so much more to offer than just the yoga itself!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×