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[Admin Note: Over on the LDL particle size thread, Todd asked the question of why eggs are bad. Seems like a question that deserves its own thread, given the recent supposed exoneration of dietary cholesterol. So here it is.] 

 

The important difference between consumption of dietary cholesterol, which has a negligible influence on heart disease risk, and cholesterol produced endogenously in the body (which can be a marker of risk, depending on a complete profile)....

 

So why exactly is it that eggs are so damn bad?

 

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=92

Edited by Dean Pomerleau
Edited quote for emphasis and clarity

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Todd,

 

So why exactly is it that eggs are so damn bad?

 

The choline:

 

EqzIQYo.png

 

Having high TMAO in the bloodstream as a result of feeding your gut bacteria lots of (phosphatidy)choline, found mostly in eggs and other animal products, doubles your 5-year risk of all-cause mortality, as discussed on the thread pointed to above and in PMID 27287696.

 

In PMID 27281307 (discussed here), they looked at the association between dietary choline and all-cause mortality. Compared to the lowest quintile intake of choline, people who ate the most choline had a 25% increase in all-cause mortality. That may not seem like much, but in diabetics the mortality risk associated with eating a lot of choline was 66% higher. As I'm sure you know Todd, SBMA is often accompanied by diabetes (PMID: 15376484), and with your relatively elevated fasting glucose, I'd personally think seriously about this, especially since your daily consumption of three eggs alone (not including any other choline sources in your diet) already puts your choline intake above the intake of the highest quintile in this study (360mg from your three eggs vs 325mg total for Q5). The Q5 folks in this study ate 0.7 eggs/day on average, vs your 3 eggs per day, and vs. 0.1 eggs per day on average for the low-mortality folks in Q1. See a pattern?

 

Once again Todd, your 5-year risk of mortality might be high enough so this doesn't matter. Heck, eggs, as a good source of protein, might be a net win for you due to your condition, as you've suggested. But I strongly doubt it. It seems to me you could find other sources of protein that wouldn't have the high levels of choline. For example, you never really explained why you cut out all legumes on that other thread.

 

It seems to me Todd that those chickens you care for and love so much may be getting back at you for stealing their eggs and eventually wringing their necks...

 

And for those of us who are relatively healthy, eggs aren't a good option either, independent of their cholesterol content, ignoring the cruelty, and regardless of what Whole Paycheck, or the USDA for that matter, says about them.

 

--Dean

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From the wikipedia page on choline:

 

Some animals must consume choline through their diet to remain healthy. To humans, choline is an essential nutrient, as its role in reducing the risk of neural tube defects, fatty liver disease, and other pathologies has been documented.[6] Furthermore, while methionine and folate are known to interact with choline in the methylation of homocysteine to produce methionine, recent studies have shown that choline deficiency may have adverse effects, even when sufficient amounts of methionine and folate are present.[2][6] It is used in the synthesis of components in cell membranes. The 2005 National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey stated that only 2% of postmenopausal women consume the recommended intake for choline.[7]

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Todd,

 

Reread my post above. I've edited it heavily since you probably started pulling down that wise wikipedia page singing the praises of choline. Don't believe everything you read on Wikipedia, or at WholeFoods.com. Read the primary literature yourself, or at least read the discussions we've had of the studies I pointed to. I'm not saying you want to be deficient in choline. But excess choline (which 3 eggs per day certainly qualifies for) is associated with CVD and all-cause mortality, especially in diabetics, via a mechanism that has now been pretty well established, regardless of what they're saying on Wikipedia or WF.

 

Or ignore this evidence entirely. It's completely up to you.

 

--Dean

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> You never really explained why you cut out all legumes for example on that other thread.

 

Because over a couple of decades I was increasingly plagued with awful digestion issues that endless visits to doctors failed to resolve it beyond calling it IBS in the presence of peripheral neuropathy .   Near the end, I had developed diarrhea that was almost continuous except for periods of constipation with black tarry stools - and the gut pain was phenomenal.  One doctor told me to make a very thorough diary of everything I ate, including the full list of ingredient of processed foods and to continuously track and record how I felt.  And then I finally realized that it wasn't just large portions of chick peas and black beans to which I had developed a fast enough and strong enough reaction to easily recognize as trouble but that even small amounts of products derived from most legumes were cumulatively devastating over a period of days.  After figuring it out, searching on the phrase "legume intolerance" shows that it is not just me with this issue.

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Got it Todd.

 

IBS is one more thing that sucks about being you. You've really been dealt a crappy hand. Sorry about that. I guess you'll just need to pick your poison.

 

You might consider rice, hemp or pea protein isolate (although obviously watch out for pea, as peas are legumes). Nuts are obviously another good source of protein, healthy fats, and beneficial phytochemicals.

 

You might also consider eating only the whites of your beloved chicken eggs, since in addition to all the cholesterol, most of the choline is found in the yolks, while the protein (which is why you are eating them in the first place) is found in the whites.

 

Just some suggestions.

 

--Dean

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Looks like I need to add TMAO to the list of tests I should have done.  That's the second supposedly beneficial nutrient shot down by TMAO,  There's an amino acid L-carnitine which is supposed to aid lipid metabolism and be good for the heart, especially those with heart disease and yet at the same time was recently found to be bad news for arteries through TMAO...

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Yes Todd,

 

L-carnitine sucks too since it feeds TMAO producing bacteria. But don't feel bad, quite a few of us supplemented with carnitine for years before realizing that it too is bad news.

 

--Dean

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I no longer think it's truly IBS.  I think it was neuropathy from my disease perhaps aggravated by B12 deficiency, imbalances of adrenal hormones, and a slow developing intolerance for legumes.   As I cut out the legumes I found foods I had been increasingly avoiding, mostly things high in fat and which I was told was the primary trigger for IBS weren't so problematic after all.  And when I was trying to avoid IBS triggers I turned increasingly to easy carbohydrates like orange juice which eventually caused their own troubles.

 

I wasn't dealt the best hand, but playing the hand badly through ignorance has made it worse.  The game is complex and I went with the common wisdom of leaving it to professionals to look at my cards and place my bets for me.  Now, for better or worse, I'm looking at the cards.  I want guidance from pros, but it is my chips being bet and I'm increasingly uncomfortable with squandering them myself instead of leaving it to others.

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Todd,

 

Now, for better or worse, I'm looking at the cards.  I want guidance from pros, but it is my chips being bet and I'm increasingly uncomfortable with squandering them myself instead of leaving it to others.

 

Very good attitude! We all learn from each other here how to take our health into our own hands, judge for ourselves what evidence to heed and what to ignore, and not to simply trust the so-called experts.

 

--Dean

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I think the egg yolks contain

 

Todd,

 

Now, for better or worse, I'm looking at the cards.  I want guidance from pros, but it is my chips being bet and I'm increasingly uncomfortable with squandering them myself instead of leaving it to others.

 

Very good attitude! We all learn from each other here how to take our health into our own hands, judge for ourselves what evidence to heed and what to ignore, and not to simply trust the so-called experts.

 

--Dean

 

Oops, meant to say "comfortable squandering them myself" while I was thinking "uncomfortable leaving it to others".  Anyway you seem to have understood what I was trying to say.

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Unfortunately the yolks, in addition to containing a significant fraction of the proteins, contain a lot of the other good stuff such as the B vitamins, minerals like iodine and selenium, and lecithin (other supposedly good fats in addition to choline).

 

The yolks of our eggs vary from deep orange to crimson.  They stand tall and if you cut them they don't run but ooze with a rich viscosity that struck me as the epitome of healthfulness.  Sometimes if the chickens have been grazing on a lot of mustard or garlic they would carry hints of those flavors.  Almost everyone we give them to loves them, although we have one neighbor who said "I guess I don't really like eggs because those are much too eggy for me."

 

Hopefully it will be discovered that the choline is only problematic in commercial eggs because they lack something like the abundance of beta carotenes in eggs from chickens raised on real food as opposed to commercial chicken feed.

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Todd,

 

Hopefully it will be discovered that the choline is only problematic in commercial eggs because they lack something like the abundance of beta carotenes in eggs from chickens raised on real food as opposed to commercial chicken feed.

 

As I said, you're welcome to ignore the available evidence if you wish.

 

You are right though that chickens eating real food have more beta carotene in their eggs, apparently up to 7x as much as factory farmed eggs. That would put them at about 40 mcg per egg assuming your go-to site for nutrition facts (WholeFoods) is serving up the egg nutrition profile for factory farmed eggs, at 5.5 mcg of beta-carotene per egg. So ~40 mcg per egg - that's pretty good right?!

 

Sure, until you consider carrots.

 

At ~7g per baby carrot, a single baby carrot has 594 mcg of beta-carotene (based on WholeFoods carrot profile), or 15x as much as each of your  precious, home-grown, golden (yolked) eggs. Sort of puts things in perspective, doesn't it?

 

Sorry to be the bearer of more bad news, but the idea that eggs are rich in beta-carotene and other important nutrients is a myth promulgated by the egg industry. Nothing more. They are a good source of protein, and a great way to raise your serum cholesterol (if you eat healthy, see Michael's response to you here), and an even better way to feed the choline-eating bacteria in your gut so that they'll spew out more heart attack-promoting TMAO.

 

But go ahead, pick your poison.

 

--Dean

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[...]

You might consider rice, hemp or pea protein isolate (although obviously watch out for pea, as peas are legumes). Nuts are obviously another good source of protein, healthy fats, and beneficial phytochemicals.

 

You might also consider eating only the whites of your beloved chicken eggs, since in addition to all the cholesterol, most of the choline is found in the yolks, while the protein (which is why you are eating them in the first place) is found in the whites.

 

Just some suggestions.

 

--Dean

 

In the other thread, I cited some studies showing beneficial effects of whey protein isolate on LDL, TC, TG, circulating insulin and insulin resistance scores - that strikes me as a pretty powerful argument in favor of whey protein isolate as opposed to protein powders from rice, hemp, or pea, unless the latter group can show similar effects. As a substitute for eggs, I advised completing the protein package by adding small amounts of salmon and sardines a couple of times a week. That way you are looking at whey protein isolate for egg whites and fish for yolk. Of course, yolk has a lot of nutritional value, but that depends a great deal on feeding - there are even eggs that have substantial amounts of omega-3 (which would've been a point in favor of fish), but I don't know if you can or want to feed your chickens that way.

 

I would also stress yet again - and I'll never tire of repeating this - we are all individuals with unique constellation of genes, variants and epigenetic history, and we most certainly respond individually to diets and diet components. Unquestionably, it is entirely possible for one person to do well on a given diet and another person to do poorly. Throw in disease burden and you really need to tailor health interventions to your particular situation. Broad studies, particularly epi studies, reflect results that are statistically true for those profiles, but every individual will have a different response - we already know this here from long experience, when over and over again, ad nauseam, we read "well, it didn't work for me", or "wow, worked really well for me, sorry it's doing nothing for you". In that context, I am very supportive of your experimenting and finding your own answers, as you did with legumes. Keep a detailed health diary (which I do and advocate - I even started a thread here, which was met with resounding silence), because that will be the key to having some kind of accountability and validity.

 

And as an example of such variability, I can cite eggs. Some 15 years ago, I went through a period where I was eating whole eggs 3-4 times a week - one or two eggs at a time [i was trying to minimize my calories and the eggs were very efficient]. My cholesterol numbers exploded so badly that my PC at the time called me at home to raise an alarm - I've always had poor cholesterol numbers, so that's a particular area I watch like a hawk. Before the egg misadventure my numbers were: LDL: 124, TC: 208 HDL: 71 TG: 64 (as the paper cited shows, TG is influenced by protein too). My PC called in a panic about my numbers after a few weeks of eggs: LDL: 181, TC: 271 HDL: 74 TG: 80 - these were the highest numbers I ever recorded in any cholesterol test (I've had these tests all done at UCLA, where I've been going to for all my health needs since the early 1980's). And, keep in mind, my diet was otherwise very good - and calories very low. As you can imagine, this was full on emergency time - I immediately cut out the egg yolks and only kept eating the egg whites and re-tested 1 months later: LDL: 128, TC: 244, HDL: 101, TG:  77, and then I cut out the egg whites and 3 months later, my LDL went back to 124, and TG to 56. Now, how did I know it was the eggs? Because: detailed health diary.  

 

So for me, eggs just don't work - neither the yolks, nor the whites. Whites - I suspect because of the amino-acid profile, high met. etc. But, based on that, would I tell you to cut out eggs? Of course not! Because that works for me - what works for you, may be entirely different and your body may respond completely differently. That's why I look for papers and experiment myself. But to me they are just fodder for experimenting, I don't take them as gospel at all. In that spirit I suggested - based on the papers I cited - that you try highly-viscous fibers and whey protein isolate. It might work for you, in which case: win, or it might not, in which case the search continues. But all of that is worthless unless you can reliably chart the effects - so health diary, the more detailed the better (including exercise, weight, etc.). YMMV.

Edited by TomBAvoider

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Thanks Tom,

 

I too am very much in favor of self-experimentation and recording results. But one problem is that things like TMAO don't show up on any standard blood tests, so sometimes you've just got to go with what the research says, it seems to me.

 

Regarding whey protein as an option for Todd, I considered that. I left it off my list (in favor of rice, hemp or pea protein) when I determined that whey protein isolate has about as much choline per gram as eggs, not to mention being rich in carnitine (another TMAO promoter) and methionine. The last may not be an issue for Todd, but methionine restriction appears in general to provide health & longevity benefits.  

 

--Dean

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I too had recent problem with too many beans. Painful episodes lasting for hours. I totally cut out all legumes and issue was resolved; however they are wonderful sources of low meth protein and I really wanted to include them in my diet. So I began adding only 1/2 cup cooked lentils and 1/2 cup well rinsed garbanzos daily. I also cut out some foods that may have also been contributing to my distress based on the Fodmap hypothesis. Namely apples, cashews, whole wheat cereal, mushrooms, and some others and replacing them with low fodmap alternatives. It worked and I now can get all my protein requirements without adding powders or animal foods other than a 1/2 cup of kefir daily and two 3 oz servings of fish weekly.

 

Canned garbanzos, peas and lentils are the least problematic of the legumes according to my research of the whole fodmap phenomenon. They are still problematic though for those sensitive to fodmaps, but each individual has a threshold and these legumes will allow for a bit more leeway than black beans, kidney beans, Limas etc.

 

https://stanfordhealthcare.org/content/dam/SHC/for-patients-component/programs-services/clinical-nutrition-services/docs/pdf-lowfodmapdiet.pdf

Edited by mikeccolella

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Tom I appreciate your suggestions and largely agree with your rationale.

 

I looked into glucomannan and my preference would be to try it as the flour, such as salep, versus in a pill.  But I'm having trouble finding a source for it at a reasonable cost.

 

As for whey protein, prior to Dean's comments, my biggest hesitation is that most whey protein products give little info regarding the source of the protein and I don't wish to support conventional industrial agriculture, especially with respect to animal husbandry.  I currently get a modest amount of raw goat milk in barter, ~1 gallon / month, from a friend who keeps Nigerian dwarf dairy goats in a manner I find acceptable.  I have a source for larger quantities of sheep's milk too, but less convenient, so I've rarely taken advantage of it, but may make a bigger effort.  Prior to the TMAO thing, though, I felt our own eggs were my best and healthiest source of protein and it sound like that might rule out switching more heavily to dairy too.  Pea protein is likely to make me violently ill.  I've been avoiding rice due to the risk of arsenic contaminaton.  I don't yet know enough about hemp protein but will consider it.

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Well there's also alfa-alfa protein at not unreasonable prices, with a quite decent amino-acid profile, though pretty inefficient on a protein to calories ratio :

 

https://truenutrition.com/p-6606-alfalfa-greens-protein-powder-1lb.aspx?

 

I don't know anything else about it other than the info provided by truenutrition, and have never personally tried it, but it's another option. From the reviews, one concern may be that the taste may leave something to be desired - but perhaps that can be masked. When I try new proteins from trunutrition, I order 1lb and go from there. I've been using truenutrition for years, and found them always very honest and conscientious (though not as knowledgeable as I'd wish - but then, no vendor is). The other thing is that there's a fantastic option of selecting your own blends in any percentage you wish, which I have done (f.ex. adding oat starch) - I am not affiliated with truenutrition in any way other than a customer. YMMV.

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Tom,

 

Alfa-alfa?!

 

Alfalfa might be a protein to consider, but I'd be cautious, especially if I were Todd.

 

There is evidence in both rodents and primates suggesting one of the animo acids in (at least) the seeds and sprouts of alfalfa (L-canavanine) has toxic effects, and may trigger lupus-like symptoms. I'm not sure if it carries over into alfalfa protein powder, but given Todd's other issues, many of which resemble lupus, I'd probably steer clear of alfalfa protein just in case. The U of Kentucky expert on the topics says in summary on the website above:

 

 WITH THE EXCEPTION OF INDIVIDUALS CONCERNED ABOUT SLE-LIKE [lupus-like - DP] CONDITIONS, THE EVIDENCE SUPPORTS MY PERSONAL BELIEF THAT EVEN DAILY MAMMALIAN CONSUMPTION OF CANAVANINE VIA ALFALFA SPROUTS DOES NOT REPRESENT A SIGNIFICANT PUBLIC HEALTH HAZARD

 

I wouldn't call that a ringing endorsement for alfalfa sprouts. And given that canavanine is an amino acid in alfalfa and alfalfa protein powder is presumably composed of the amino acids in alfalfa, I'd personally steer clear, and suggest Todd might want to as well. 

 

Given your conservative "precautionary principle" attitude, I'd think you'd be hesitant about alfalfa protein as well...

 

--Dean

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You're probably right, Dean. Any time a protein is derived from a novel source, caution is advised. It was just a suggestion, I didn't do any research on it, and said as much (I simply threw "alfa-alfa protein" into PubMed: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=alfa-alfa+protein and nothing much came up), but you are right, there is no proof that toxic particles are not found in the alfa-alfa protein itself, so I hereby withdraw my suggestion. 

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Also, Dean, I was composing an email I intend to shoot to truenutrition alerting them to the danger you pointed to, so they can respond (and if necessary place a disclaimer or withdraw the product). However, I re-read the link you posted, and in it the author states: 

  • Malinow et al (1984) reported that alfalfa seeds which were autoclaved for 2 hr contained no detectable canavanine. There were no symptoms of a syndrome resembling systemic lupus erythematosus in cynomolqus macaques that were fed autoclaved alfalfa seeds for up to 1 yr. These results supported the contention that canavanine was responsible for the adverse effects of alfalfa seeds and sprouts observed in monkeys.

What I'm curious about is what process is used to obtain the protein powder from alfa-alfa. If the process involves exposures such as in autoclaving as above, it's possible that no canavanine is left over. You could also, I suppose, attempt to subject the protein you get to a similar process, and then test to see if any canavanine is left. Of course if you can test for that, then one could just directly test for canavanine in the protein powder when bought, and if none is found, at least that aspect might be laid to rest.

However, the larger problem remains: any protein source that has not had a long history of human consumption (and sometimes even if it has!) is potentially hazardous. I remember, back in the day, that exact objection (lack of history of consumption by humans) being brought out against Quorn (at least on the CR list).

 

Ultimately, finding good protein sources is a complicated business, especially for someone who has a specific disease burden, and who also happens to - very, very unfortunately - have a bad reaction to legume-derived proteins. 

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This was an interesting recent article published in the journal Atherosclerosis this year:

http://www.atherosclerosis-journal.com/article/S0021-9150(15)30192-1/abstract

 

TMAO slows aortic lesion formation in this mouse model and may have a protective effect against atherosclerosis development in humans.   Surprisingly, and independently from treatment group, TMAO levels inversely correlated with aortic lesion size in both aortic root and thoracic aorta.

 

Looking at egg consumption in ApoE4 carriers, which have a higher pre-disposition toward heart disease and alzheimer's via poor lipid metabolism:

 

Egg or cholesterol intakes were not associated with the risk of CAD. Each 1 additional egg (55 g)/d was associated with a multivariable-adjusted HR of 0.93 (95% CI: 0.50, 1.72) in the ApoE4 carriers. Each 100-mg/d higher cholesterol intake was associated with an HR of 0.95 (95% CI: 0.73, 1.25) in the ApoE4 carrier.
 
The study found that a high intake of dietary cholesterol was not associated with the risk of incident coronary heart disease -- not in the entire study population nor in those with the APOE4 phenotype. Moreover, the consumption of eggs, which are a significant source of dietary cholesterol, was not associated with the risk of incident coronary heart disease. The study did not establish a link between dietary cholesterol or eating eggs with thickening of the common carotid artery walls, either.
 
Looking at the lack of an association of egg consumption and calcified atherosclerotic plaque in the coronary arteries:
 
There was no association between frequency of egg consumption and prevalent CAC. Odds ratios (95% CI) for CAC were 1.0 (reference), 0.95 (0.66-1.38), 0.94 (0.63-1.40), and 0.90 (0.57-1.42) for egg consumption of almost never, 1-3 times per month, once per week, and 2+ times per week, respectively.
 
In that study, the more eggs were eaten, the lower the risk was for calcified plaque in the arteries.
 
The consumption of more than one egg per week was associated with a lower coronary atherosclerotic burden.
 
You can basically drown a rat in dietary carnitine and you don't see any increase in vascular disease... or, fed to rabbits, it can reverse atherosclerosis.  There also doesn't seem to be an association of choline intake and cardiovascular disease in humans -- in fact, the best way to elevate TMAO is to feed seafood to a person, which lowers heart disease to a greater extent than a vegan diet.  Choline consumption is associated with improvements in cognitive function, hepatic lipid metabolism, and DNA methylation.
 
I'm not completely sold on the low choline / low carnitine / low egg diet, for fear of TMAO.
 
I've read that resveratrol + PQQ + garlic can help with gut remodeling to limit TMAO production, all 3 of which I currently supplement.
 
 
There is an immediate need to increase awareness among health professionals and consumers of choline as an essential, but currently suboptimal, nutrient, and further, to highlight the critical role it plays throughout life, especially for pregnant and lactating women. New analysis of NHANES data indicates that for the majority of the population choline consumption is far below current dietary recommendations. Increasing awareness of the pervasiveness of suboptimal choline intakes must become the focus of public health efforts in order to promote optimal health. Education regarding the richest food sources of choline can assist in reaching this goal.
 
Paul Jaminet has an interesting write-up on the TMAO scare:
 
How Does TMAO Produce Atherosclerosis?
 
The explanation offered by the Hazen group is that TMAO suppresses “reverse cholesterol transport” conceived broadly as the process of migrating excess cholesterol out of macrophages for transport to the liver and excretion in feces via the bile.
 
Basically, the idea here is:
  1. Atherosclerosis begins with metabolic syndrome, a state characterized by high LDL levels and caused by endotoxemia (high levels of endotoxins entering the body from the gut).
  2. As we’ve discussed (“Blood Lipids and Infectious Disease, Part II,” July 12, 2011), LDL particles have an immune function. They are oxidized by microbial cell wall components. The resulting oxLDL particles are taken up by macrophages, which then present the microbial cell wall components to other immune cells for antibody formation.
  3. Endotoxemia initiates the process of atherosclerosis by (a) poisoning the liver to cause metabolic syndrome which raises LDL levels, and (b) oxidizing LDL – since endotoxins are bacterial cell wall components that can oxidize LDL – and driving the oxLDL into macrophages.
  4. After macrophages have separated the microbial cell wall components from their accompanying LDL particle, the cholesterol and fat have to be exported to keep them from building up in the cell.
  5. If cholesterol and fat cannot be exported quickly enough, the macrophage is injured and becomes a “foam cell.” Disabled foam cells accumulate in specific locations and form atherosclerotic plaques.
  6. TMAO suppresses bile acid creation, reducing the excretion of cholesterol from the body and leading to higher LDL levels and a greater likelihood that macrophages will become foam cells.
  7. If this is true, then TMAO is not intrinsically atherosclerotic. TMAO in blood only becomes atherosclerotic in the context of metabolic syndrome brought on by endotoxemia.
What causes endotoxemia? A dysbiotic flora generated by a diet high in sugar, flour, and omega-6 fats
 
Looking at oxLDL and metabolic syndrome:
 
Egg consumption was associated with lower oxLDL and improvements in inflammatory markers, lipid profiles, and insulin sensitivity.  Higher dietary cholesterol seems to increase bile acid creation.
Edited by sirtuin

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Thanks sirtuin!  With the TMAO scare I dropped to 1 egg per day.   I think I'll go to roughly 1.5 per day until further evidence helps clarify the issue.  I noticed that in the study showing no linkage between egg consumption and artherosclerosis in the highest egg consumption group they were eating less eggs than I am.  And the connection between high ldl and trouble with TMAO is concerning as my ldl is still high though improving.  I think at 1.5 eggs / day and a modest increase in quinoa and other relatively high protein foods I'm already eating I can get sufficient protein without resorting to concentrated supplements which I'd prefer to avoid.

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Thanks Sthira for bringing us back down to some sensible reality wrt to choline and eggs!

 

Sthira?! Mike, you might want to correct that. It was Sirtuin. I know, the two names share many letters, but you should read more carefully. Especially since I'm pretty sure Sthira is not on the same page as you, Todd or Sirtuin when it comes to eating eggs...

 

Personally, I'm glad I'm an (ethical) vegan so I don't have to worry about determining whether eggs are the perfect protein or toxic hen menses.

 

--Dean

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