What's Wrong with Eggs Now?!

[mikeccolella]

Thanks Sirtuin, sorry for that error!

[Clinton]

Thanks sirtuin, this is helpful and puts TMAO in perspective.

[mccoy]

Just today I was discussing with a friend the pros and cons of eggs and fish. They both appear to exhibit some alleged benefits with inherent potential problems .

One drawback of farmed eggs is the unnatural biochemistry derived by unknown compounds in industrial chickenfeed. Conversely, eggs from free ranging hens have pretty good biochemistry but biologic hazard is potentially high, since we do not now the germ strains which develop into the coop and the chicken itself, contaminating the egg and most probably its content after breaking the shell. Perfect cooking would be required and  disinfection of hands. I'm aware our immune system is in charge and is boosted by cold expposure, the biohazard remains though.

[TomBAvoider]

Totally different perspective on choline (Peter Attia podcast, guest Chris Masterjohn):

https://peterattiamd.com/chrismasterjohn/

I must say, I found it pretty persuasive, or at least it showed that the choline story is far, FAR more complex than what we supposed just a couple of years ago - there's choline and then there's choline. The more you learn, the more you appreciate that you can't just run off with far going conclusions without seeing the larger context. 

Yet again, biology is far more complex than we give it credit for and humility is called for - we're often far too confident of our conclusions... the cure to that is more knowledge.

[mccoy]

Just yesterday I listened to that podcast. Interesting point is that if we take TMG and creatine supplements we may lower the need for choline if I understood well. The role of homocysteine and the reasons of potentially high values of it is very well explained as well.

[Todd Allen]

Egg and egg-sourced cholesterol consumption in relation to mortality: Findings from population-based nationwide cohort

Quote

Highlights

• Egg consumption is associated with lower total mortality among Chinese population.
• Substituting eggs for dairy products, nuts/legumes, or red meat was associated with lower mortality.
• Intake of cholesterol from eggs was inversely associated with total mortality.
• Consuming cholesterol from non-egg sources was positively related to mortality.

 

[corybroo]

Different strokes (yolks?) for different folks?

The above study Todd referenced looked at “egg and cholesterol consumption in relation to mortality in a nationwide Chinese cohort”

JAMA reports in a study of US adults Associations of Dietary Cholesterol or Egg Consumption With Incident Cardiovascular Disease and Mortality

Findings  Among 29 615 adults pooled from 6 prospective cohort studies in the United States with a median follow-up of 17.5 years, each additional 300 mg of dietary cholesterol consumed per day was significantly associated with higher risk of incident CVD (adjusted hazard ratio , 1.17; adjusted absolute risk difference [ARD], 3.24%) and all-cause mortality (adjusted HR, 1.18; adjusted ARD, 4.43%), and each additional half an egg consumed per day was significantly associated with higher risk of incident CVD (adjusted HR, 1.06; adjusted ARD, 1.11%) and all-cause mortality (adjusted HR, 1.08; adjusted ARD, 1.93%).

Meaning  Among US adults, higher consumption of dietary cholesterol or eggs was significantly associated with higher risk of incident CVD and all-cause mortality in a dose-response manner.

It is very interesting that while both studies report an association of cholesterol and mortality, they report the association in opposite directions.

[Todd Allen]

2 hours ago, corybroo said:

It is very interesting that while both studies report an association of cholesterol and mortality, they report the association in opposite directions.

That's epidemiology.   Strikes me as just a bit more reliable than consulting a ouji board.

[Sibiriak]

44 minutes ago, Todd Allen said:

...is associated with...

You can take that to the bank.

[Mike41]

17 hours ago, Todd Allen said:

That's epidemiology.   Strikes me as just a bit more reliable than consulting a ouji board.

I’m skeptical of this egg study. They do not mention conflict of interest. Most studies do! Egg industry bullshit?? There’s a lot of it out there and then they play with the data to get the result they want.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/10/14/research-group-that-discounted-risks-red-meat-has-ties-program-partly-backed-by-beef-industry/

Edited December 8, 2020 by Mike41

[mccoy]

I'm not an eggs-hater, but the Chinese study stops short of saying that eggs resuscitate dead people!

[InquilineKea]

eggs and diabetes => https://www.pcrm.org/news/health-nutrition/egg-consumption-increases-risk-diabetes

Idk if it's controlled in teh right ways

Edited December 12, 2020 by InquilineKea

[mgoktas20]

Just a comment: Before, i woludn't feel after eating eggs. So i quit. If you feel good, keep eating. 

[InquilineKea]

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2021-02-older-women-ate-protein-premature.html

[InquilineKea]

Quote

Of all the animal protein sources, eggs were found to be the worst. Swapping in 3 percent of daily calories with plant protein instead of egg protein (found mostly in the egg whites) was associated with twice the benefit of swapping out meat protein, exceeding 20 percent lower mortality in men and women. So, eggs appeared

 

Edited January 23 by InquilineKea

[Saul]

I would guess that, the younger the animal, the more pro-growth stuff -- bad for adults seeking increased healthspan and lifespan.  And no animal is younger then an egg.

  --  Saul 

[InquilineKea]

Cow's milk has A LOT of pro-growth exosomes. I don't think chicken eggs have those..

... or do they? https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnut.2023.1162679/full

https://cdnsciencepub.com/doi/full/10.1139/cjas-2020-0130

[holy shit. Eggs and jellyfish are the ONLY two animal products I can tolerate]... And I get a lot of pressure to eat eggs. I'm mostly too lazy at home to eat them, but when I'm with others [though this is a small minority of the time]..

Read more of Gregor's book - he also comes down really hard against eggs

Egg sEV-dependent gene expression changes in the brain and associated SLM phenotypes

The accumulation of RNA in egg sEVs in the brain was associated with changes in gene expression. When mice were fed egg sEV and RNA-deficient or egg sEV and RNA-sufficient diets, seven genes implicated in SLM were differentially expressed in the hippocampus (Figure 6), i.e., the region of the brain that regulates SLM (35, 44).

FIGURE 6

Figure 6. Heat map of differential expression in genes associated with spatial learning and memory in mice brain fed by sEV rich and sEV deficient diet.

 

Dietary depletion of egg sEVs and RNA impaired SLM, assessed by Barnes maze and Morris water maze in mice. Mice fed on ERD diet took more than ten times longer to locate and enter the escape hole in a Barnes maze compared to ERS-fed mice at 4, 8, 16, and 20 weeks of feeding (Figure 7A). Morris water maze test results showed that the mice fed on ERD diet took longer to locate the hidden platform, compared to ERS-fed mice at 6 and 11 weeks (Figure 7B).

FIGURE 7

Figure 7. Effect of egg small EVs and RNA-sufficient (ERS) diet on spatial learning and memory in C57/BL6J mice. Latency to locate the escape platform in the Barnes maze after consuming sEV RNA rich and sEV RNA deficient diets for 4, 8, 16, and 20 weeks in C57BL/6 mice (A). Latency to locate the escape platform in the Morris Water maze after consuming ERS or ERD diets for 6 and 11 weeks in C57BL/6 mice (B). Data are presented as median with range (n = 8). The middle line denotes the median. Data were analyzed by Mann–Whitney test. Bars indicate the minimum and maximum values. ^*Value of p <0.05; ^**Value of p <0.01.

Edited January 23 by InquilineKea

[Mike41]

On 7/14/2016 at 12:51 PM, Dean Pomerleau said:

Todd,

 

 

 

The choline:

 

 

 

 

Having high TMAO in the bloodstream as a result of feeding your gut bacteria lots of (phosphatidy)choline, found mostly in eggs and other animal products, doubles your 5-year risk of all-cause mortality, as discussed on the thread pointed to above and in PMID 27287696.

 

In PMID 27281307 (discussed here), they looked at the association between dietary choline and all-cause mortality. Compared to the lowest quintile intake of choline, people who ate the most choline had a 25% increase in all-cause mortality. That may not seem like much, but in diabetics the mortality risk associated with eating a lot of choline was 66% higher. As I'm sure you know Todd, SBMA is often accompanied by diabetes (PMID: 15376484), and with your relatively elevated fasting glucose, I'd personally think seriously about this, especially since your daily consumption of three eggs alone (not including any other choline sources in your diet) already puts your choline intake above the intake of the highest quintile in this study (360mg from your three eggs vs 325mg total for Q5). The Q5 folks in this study ate 0.7 eggs/day on average, vs your 3 eggs per day, and vs. 0.1 eggs per day on average for the low-mortality folks in Q1. See a pattern?

 

Once again Todd, your 5-year risk of mortality might be high enough so this doesn't matter. Heck, eggs, as a good source of protein, might be a net win for you due to your condition, as you've suggested. But I strongly doubt it. It seems to me you could find other sources of protein that wouldn't have the high levels of choline. For example, you never really explained why you cut out all legumes on that other thread.

 

It seems to me Todd that those chickens you care for and love so much may be getting back at you for stealing their eggs and eventually wringing their necks...

 

And for those of us who are relatively healthy, eggs aren't a good option either, independent of their cholesterol content, ignoring the cruelty, and regardless of what Whole Paycheck, or the USDA for that matter, says about them.

 

--Dean

https://www.jacc.org/doi/10.1016/S0735-1097(22)02448-2
 

Edited February 19 by Mike41

[Dean Pomerleau]

Good edit @Mike41 since that study seemed to find no correlation between red wine consumption and TMAO level in the blood.

 

[Mike41]

Yes Dean, unfortunately!

[InquilineKea]

Even if you couldn’t differentiate meat microRNA from me microRNA, you could at least test to see if you get a rise in blood levels after consumption. Tracking three shared cow microRNAs in people after eating beef failed to show a bloodstream bump,7243 though, if you remember, that rectal biopsy study did at least show microRNA changes down in the colon after red meat consumption.7244 Chicken microRNAs from egg consumption, however, can be detected in the human bloodstream after intake.

In the USDA-funded study published as “MicroRNAs in Chicken Eggs Are Bioavailable in Healthy Adults and Can Modulate mRNA Expression in Peripheral Blood Mononuclear Cells,” volunteers were fed hard-boiled eggs. Within nine hours, blood levels of microRNA-181a and microRNA-181b rose to about 150 percent and 300 percent above baseline, respectively, reflecting their relative abundance in eggs. This was accompanied by a suppression of the validated gene target of miR-181b in their white blood cells. To verify that chicken microRNAs actually make it into the human bloodstream after egg consumption and don’t just indirectly bump up endogenous microRNA levels, the researchers were able to track the entry of a chicken-specific microRNA into their circulation.7245

[InquilineKea]

The most abundant microRNA in milk is microRNA-148a, and it’s a key inhibitor of crucial suppressors to the engine-of-aging enzyme mTOR that I talked about in the Aging Pathways section.7265 After all, what does an infant need more than accelerated aging? This may be even more apparent in dairy cows, whose newborns double their birthweight in forty days, more than four times faster than our infants.7266 Cows have been selectively bred for lactation performance, which incidentally appears to have exaggerated microRNA-148a expression.7267

 

Weirdly, semivegetarians have better mortality than ovolactovegetarians