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Danielovich

Valter Longo interviewed by Rhonda

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I'm half way though it, and it is amazing.

He explains why CR is not as good as Periodic fasting as it lacks the refeeding part. (where the magic happens).

This encourages me to continue with my Fasting and Feasting approach  :Dxyz 


Here is the interview:

Edited by Danielovich

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Great! Now all we need is for one of you Americans to go through this 5-day FMD diet that Valter is offering through the Prolonfmd.com website and then present an extensive photo diary here, together with pictures of every meal (I presume they send you a package with fresh food every day), ingredients breakdown, your personal feelings, etc. :)xyz

 

Do we have a volunteer?   :Pxyz  :rolleyes:  :Pxyz

 

edit: Ah, it's not really fresh food. 

 

ProLon® meals come in 5 small boxes (one for each day) that include plant-based energy bars, soups, a variety of snacks, drinks, and supplements, all studied and carefully designed to nourish your body and promote positive changes.

 

edit2: Actually someone already went through such a similar experiment and made a thorough report.. Quite an interesting read.. Here's a link: https://www.quantifiedbob.com/2016/04/fasting-mimicking-diet/

Edited by The Observer

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I think prolon is just for people who cannot or will not fast. What do you make of Longo's idea that the magic of fasting comes mostly not from the fasting, but rather the refeeding?

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Sthira, yes you are correct.
The refeeding is when the magic happens.

Actually I've discovered that it is much easier for me to CR utilizing fasts (24 hours, few times aweek), and this also allowed me to feast on other occasions (Friday dinner, which is a Jewish tradition).

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But autophagy happens while fasting, not while refeeding, right? It was funny how Rhonda wanted to talk about autophagy and mitophagy on several occasions during the interview, but Longo was like "Yeah, that to, it happens and it's good.... let's move on".  :Dxyz

Edited by The Observer

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Hi all, 1st post here, my most recent obsession is manipulating the longevity pathways by nutrition.

 

I've read Valter Longo's book. As far as I understood, it has been published last September in its translation into the Italian language, since I could not order the original language (English) version from Amazon.

Apparently then, it's not yet published in English. You guys may confirm or deny that.

What I gathered from the book is that Longo is a partner into the Prolon society. Longo's equity will go 100% into funding longevity research. THe other guy is apparently making money from sales.

Longo himself gives detailed desription of his 5 days FMD. Everyone should be able to carry out the FMD with natural food. The packaged food is meant for those who are too busy or who do not wish to think about the details. I believe it may also be used as a ready package in hospitals and clinics for treatment.

Longo is a long-date supporter of intermitten fasting (IF) and apparently the concept of 5:2 diet has been drawn from his studies and he's happy about that.

I've yet to watch the vid with Rhonda.

The suggestions from Professor Longo are absoutely solid from the research POV and likewise are his credentials. Within reason, considering the huge individual variabiity in biochemistry and genetic makeup.

Please note that, as far as I understood, his longevity diet has the purpose to downregulate the mTOR and IIS (Insuline+IGF1 signaling) metabolic pathways in a repair & manteinance mode.

Whereas his FMD has the specific purpose to increase the regenaration biomarkers and  the immune system by hemopoietic stem cells rejuvenation.

I need to re-read his book a couple of times and his articles more times. Fascinating reading, with a practical application now. Sounds maybe to good to be true.

 

http://www.cell.com/6068A7CF-C6A0-4B4D-975A-E3C635105365/FinalDownload/DownloadId-C1664DFF664EABBB0A845D89F5F5B2B9/6068A7CF-C6A0-4B4D-975A-E3C635105365/cell-metabolism/pdf/S1550-4131(15)00224-7.pdf

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Thanks for posting this.

I've been thinking about the conflicting goals of rebuilding and maintaining muscle versus minimizing the risks of cancer and other diseases of aging and thought alternating between catabolic and anabolic phases might play a role.  I've tried eating one meal per day which is ok while losing weight but I don't think will work well for me when maintaining nor is it good while working out to build muscle.  I've wondered about doing a seasonal thing, perhaps a reducing diet winter & summer with exercise focused on flexibility and/or endurance and growth oriented diet and exercise spring & fall.

But after watching this video I think I'll first try doing a bi-monthly week of "fasting mimicking diet".  It leaves the question of what an ideal FMD might be?  I'm guessing Valter's diet is a mildly calorie restricted ketogenic diet, but I think I'll restrict calories more and start with a base of 25-35 grams daily for carbs and for protein and 35-50 grams of fat.  And additional food to roughly match calories expended in exercise.
 

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From what I've read he developed this fasting mimicking diet because actual fasting was too difficult for people.  But I'm wondering if perhaps just a 48 hour water only fast once a month would have the same benefits he has documented? Personally I'd rather do 2 days of starvation than 5 ;)

I thought it was interesting that the guy at the link above (quantified Bob) saw his testosterone levels skyrocket from start of FMD to post FMD.  I do like the idea of a regular "autophagy party" (timely given today's Nobel Prize announcement).

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Hi Gordo, that's right, he went out and admitted in Rhonda Patrick's interview that compliance as a major factor in developing his FMD along with reluctance of health care providers to tell patients to fast due to the same compliance issues.  I found the > 1 hr interview high yield.  Yes, a major takeaway for me was the importance of refeeding in eventuating primed progenitor stem cells to indeed do so ( and replace those that underwent apoptosis with more youthful ones) was one key takeaway.  

 

I found it interesting that IF led to a more youthful immune profile as well: As we age, our senescent immune system loses more T cells than monocyte/macrophage/neutrophil lineage immune cells and consequently has a lower ratio of T-cells to these other myeloid lineages.  One consequence of this appears to be a more pro-inflammatory environment as we age due to relative differences in cytokines, interleukins, by these immune lineages.   Intermittent fasting restored a healthier, more youthful balance of T-cells.

 

Besides the nitty gritty such as how IF can work with chemotherapy via two independent mechanisms ( normal cells more robust during fasting, and cancer cells more vulnerable when deprived of sugars & amino acids), I enjoyed Valter's big picture response to Rhonda's question on whether or not he would personally take metformin as a potential adaptogen( starts at one hour into it).  He basically said no way (about 1 hour and 2 minutes into it) and cited all the enthusiasm for rapamycin until we started finding higher incidences of all sorts of morbidity ( cataracts, testicular atrophy, etc.) with long-term use.  Love his analogy of finding a mechanism so central to cell function it is higher risk - he compared the situation to like sticking random things into a car until the noise it was making stops, causing who knows what havoc in the process of "fixing" the problem.  He favored instead not only more limited pathways but situations where we have more human safety data and cited the example of eventual therapy blocking growth hormone receptor due to the absence of major morbidity in Ecuador patients with Laron syndrome in addition to major red flags in rodent models. 

 

Apparently he his a book that came out in Italian and will soon be available in the US where he advocates 2 meals daily within a 12 hour window as a higher compliance.  Congratulations CR's - he described you as in the top ~ 1 in 10,000 with such compliance a rarity!  ( note I did not include myself, all I practice is IF but with good inflammatory markers).

 

Thanks Danielovich for posting, enjoyed it very much!

Edited by Mechanism

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He said fasting was too hard for some and too hard on others such as those already in bad shape from chemotherapy.  I don't think there have been sufficient trials to compare the various possibilities for short intense fasts versus somewhat longer periods of extreme restriction of calories or particular macronutrients.  Even when there is sufficient statisitical data, differences in our individual genetics and circumstances likely mean that personal experimentation will still be needed if one wants to optimize their results.

 

Myself, I've only done one 48 hour fast which I would repeat regularly if I had reason to believe it was of superior value.  I've just embarked on my first try at a week long FMD.  I previously did 3 weeks of 1000 kCal/day and it wasn't difficult to sustain and I could have stayed at that level much longer if there weren't dangers with extended fast weight loss.  So I doubt I'll have trouble with a week of ~600 kCal/day base + ~150 kCal/day for my exercising.  At this level of calorie intake I can still eat a fair amount of low calorie veggies and mushrooms, modest amounts of low calorie fruits such as lemons and cranberries and tiny amounts of richer foods.  So I don't feel like I'm starving.   I've found when I'm not eating insulinogenic meals I don't get particularly hungry.

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Fasting does get easier as you practice it. Animal bodies, as Longo notes, are in a natural state while hungry, nearly all animals are nearly always hungry, and so eating may be what's unnatural and damaging to bodies. This is an interesting perspective. My opinion is all food is damaging, some food is less damaging than other food.

 

Incidentally, the muscle loss issue doesn't happen to me (I fast frequently -- 3-7 consecutive days per month) and I'm not losing muscle (n=1); but if I was losing muscle well then I wouldn't fast. I do get weak, though, then suddenly filled with crazy amounts of energy. Skin problems clear, olfaction improved, hearing sharpens, teeth appear to whiten, blood pressure drops, blood glucose obviously drops -- good things are happening inside during a fasting practice.

 

But sadly for me fasting does nothing to improve mental health, which is actually my primary goal. And yet here's Mark Mattson discussing its cognitive benefits:

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I'm only 18 minutes into the posted video. I don't know if Longo gives more details on his diets. I've taken notes for my own comparative analysis on his dietary suggestions. The following is about his longevity diet, which is not a quantitative (caloric) restriction, rather a qualitative restriction. I just jotted down what I believe are the basic points.

I just wonder why all those legumes (I don't digest them well), why so little fruit, why so little saturated fats. That doesn't leave too much room to custom-tailoring according to objective  individual propensities.

 

VALTER LONGO

Longevity diet

1.      Vegan + pescetarian

  1. Minimize saturated animal fats and sugars
  2. Legumes as a main source of proteins
  3. Up to 65 or 70 yers  0.7 – 0.8 gr/kg/day proteins
  4. Eat large amounts of complex carbs (mainly vegetables and legumes)
  5. 50-100 ml of olive oil + one handful of nuts
  6. Fish 2-3 times a week
  7. Supplementation 2-3 times a week
  8. 12 hours eating windows
  9. Refrain from eating 3-4 hours before sleep
  10. FMD 2 to 6 times per year
  11. 2 meals per day for overweight people
  12. Check weight plus waist to decide meals per day
  13. 3 meals +snack for underweight people
  14. Eat ancestral food

Weight Exercises for muscle synthesis

·        60-75% of maximum lift

·        30 grams of proteins 1-2 hours after workout

Practical diet

·        Calories need according to cronometer (BMR + exercise)

·        Increase or decrease calories according to weight and desired trend

·        55-60% carbs (vegetables, cereals, bread, pasta)

·        Max 10 grams per day added sugar

·        30-35% calories fats, most unsaturated

·        10-11% calories proteins (vegetables + fish)

·        One meal low calories and proteins

·        Other meal high calories + at least 30 grams proteins

·        0.8 g kg-1d-1 proteins (more after 65-70 Years)

 

 

 

Edited by mccoy

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"I just wonder why all those legumes (I don't digest them well)"

 

Legumes have a very impressive track record of documented health benefits and longevity promotion.  I have seen comments like yours from other people, and I have personally had some issues myself with this, UNTIL I started taking these. Read the reviews, it's dirt cheap, just an enzyme, and most importantly, it works well.  Haven't had an issue since I started using it.  

 

As for saturated fat, it's an area of controversy but most experts seem to think its best to minimize it.  From what I've read (not able to provide citations at the moment) replacing saturated fats with junk carbs showed no heart benefit (no surprise there) but replacing them with so called "healthy fats" has shown cardio benefits.  And of course the only diet scientifically proven to reverse and prevent heart disease contained no saturated fats whatsoever.

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Thanks Gordo for the enzyme suggestion, I'm going to enquire about its availability over here. I'd be willing to introduce legumes in my diet if digestive impairment can be avoided. Such a condition would sure jeopardize my personal attempts to pursue longevity. I'm also going to search the literature on legumes and longevity. 

 

I'm aware of the current controversy on saturated fats. It seems reasonable to apply the precautionary principle here but maybe if labs are good in the lipid panels area then probably it makes sense not to worry too much about them. My latest labs were over 10 years ago so maybe it's time to check now.

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Danielovich, I've read his book since my mother tongue is Italian. I wanted to read his book in the original (English) edition but apparently it's not been published yet. Pretty strange that a translation is published before the original but so it is.

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In the book he just says full fast for 5 days is very hard to follow and weakening for most people. His published clinical trials on humans yielded pretty good results, they almost sound too good to be true.

I'm looking forward to start a FMD, I'd like to recoup some weight though before that. I'm one of those guys who favours a good BMI. I lost 6 pounds in a recent low-carbs experiment, starting from an ideal weight.

 

The results of his pilot clinical trial on a n=19 human sample (besides mice) have been published in a full report. Full and extended PDFs are freely available.

 

http://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism/abstract/S1550-4131(15)00224-7

Edited by mccoy

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And of course the only diet scientifically proven to reverse and prevent heart disease contained no saturated fats whatsoever.

 

Hopefully this set everyone's bullshit detectors off.  Save the word "proven" for mathematics.

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And of course the only diet scientifically proven to reverse and prevent heart disease contained no saturated fats whatsoever.

 

Hopefully this set everyone's bullshit detectors off.  Save the word "proven" for mathematics.

 

 

So you think it was just coincidence? 

 

 

This review is from: Dr. Dean Ornish's Program for Reversing Heart Disease: The Only System Scientifically Proven to Reverse Heart Disease Without Drugs or Surgery (Mass Market Paperback)
...For the past 24 years, the non-profit Preventive Medicine Research Institute and the University of California, San Francisco, School of Medicine have conducted research scientifically proving, for the first time, that the progression of even severe coronary heart disease can begin to reverse by making comprehensive changes in diet and lifestyle, without drugs or surgery. These studies have been published in leading peer-reviewed journals such as the Journal of the AMA, The Lancet, the American Journal of Cardiology, New England Journal of Medicine, Circulation, and others.

...When we measured the actual severity of heart disease using state-of-the-art measures such as computer-analyzed coronary arteriography and cardiac PET scans, patients showed continued improvement over time, even in patients like Mr. Bayan whose HDL decreased or triglycerides increased. Also, cardiac events were 2.5 times lower in the group who followed the program compared to the control group who made more moderate changes in diet (30% fat, 200 mg cholesterol). [reference: JAMA. 1998;280:2001-2007.] Clearly, lowering HDL by changing diet did not harm these patients. LDL cholesterol decreased by an average of almost 40% during the first year, and none of the patients who adhered to the diet showed an increase in LDL.

As Dr. Connor wrote in the New England Journal of Medicine, "There are no data showing that the physiologic reduction of HDL cholesterol levels with a low-fat diet is detrimental. Diet-induced lowering of HDL cholesterol does not confer the same risk of atherosclerosis as do low HDL cholesterol levels in Americans consuming a high-fat diet." [ref: N Engl J Med. 1997;337(8).]

It is true that one can eat an unhealthful low-fat diet if it is high in simple carbohydrates such as sugar, white flour, alcohol, and many popular fat-free desserts. Such a diet may cause a shift to the more harmful pattern B LDL subclass that Mr. Bayan mentions.

But this is not the diet we recommend for reversing heart disease. Other studies have shown that a diet high in fruits, vegetables, grains, beans, and other complex carbohydrates (which is the diet we recommend) actually cause a shift AWAY from the pattern B LDL subclass to more beneficial patterns [ref: Kenney JJ, et al. Very-low-fat diets do not necessarily promote small, dense LDL particles. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. 1999;70(3):423-5.] ...Patients whose triglycerides increase are counseled to be even more mindful in reducing their intake of simple carbohydrates and increasing their exercise. Also, for many years we have recommended that patients take 3 grams/day of fish oil, which also helps to lower triglycerides. In the Multicenter Lifestyle Demonstration Project, we found that triglyceride levels, which initially increased slightly but not significantly, then fell significantly in years two and three. [ref: American Journal of Cardiology. 1998;82:72T-76T.] Almost 80% of people who were eligible for bypass surgery or angioplasty were able to safely avoid it by making these diet and lifestyle changes instead... The bottom line is this: patients in our studies with severe heart disease reported a 91% reduction in angina (chest pain) within one month, and most became pain-free. They not only felt better, they were better. We measured improved blood flow within one month as measured by thallium scans and radionuclide ventriculograms, reversal of coronary artery blockages (atherosclerosis) within one year, even more reversal after five years, and 2.5 times fewer cardiac events (e.g., heart attacks). It works.

 
 
 
(Note: I never said I believed this was the "only" way, or even the "best" way, I don't personally follow a strict "Ornish plan" although I do believe in most of the principles in particular a strong emphasis on a diverse plant based whole food diet).  I do eat some saturated fats, and plenty of healthy fats as well, and my LDL and HDL levels are excellent.)
Edited by Gordo

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The following is about his longevity diet, which is not a quantitative (caloric) restriction, rather a qualitative restriction. I just jotted down what I believe are the basic points. [sNIP]

 

Mccoy thanks for the accurate report of Longo's book!

I also find it an interesting book.

I appreciated the biographical part and in particular the "five pillars" that any diet for longevity have to satisfy to be reliable: 1) basic research on nutrients and simple organisms 2) epidemiology  3) clinical studies  4) centenarian studies  5) study of complex systems

Two or three points aroused my attention: 1) he suggests to take every 3 days a multimineral supplement and omega 3 supplement. He says that this should be a good compromise, if high doses of supplement have been demostrated not useful, a deficiency could cause problems

2) He proposes -but only as hypothesis - that it is better to eat the food eaten by our ancestors...some people could develop intollerance to food like qinoa and curcuma (he made these two example)

The other thing I find interesting is that then the diet is applied and adapted for various illnesses (cancer, diabetes, Alzheimer, etc.).

Regarding the Italian edition before english edition: what I know is that he wrote the book in English (maybe after so many years in USA he speaks and writes better in English...and doctors that reviewed the text were mostly not Italian...)

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In the book he just says full fast for 5 days is very hard to follow and weakening for most people. His published clinical trials on humans yielded pretty good results, they almost sound too good to be true.

I'm looking forward to start a FMD, I'd like to recoup some weight though before that. I'm one of those guys who favours a good BMI. I lost 6 pounds in a recent low-carbs experiment, starting from an ideal weight.

 

The results of his pilot clinical trial on a n=19 human sample (besides mice) have been published in a full report. Full and extended PDFs are freely available.

 

http://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism/abstract/S1550-4131(15)00224-7

 

Thanks for the reference, I already know this work (As most people here I guess).

 

My question was regarding if it is better (health wise) to do a 5 day full fast compared to 5 day FMD?

Let's assume I don't have an adherence problem  :)xyz 

And if Longo actually compered those two in a clinical trial.

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