Caloric or proteic restriction?

[mccoy]

I've been reading some threads in this forum but, aside from brief references, I wonder why there is not much discussion about the issue of proteic restriction, unless I missed something (I searched it in the forums though).

 

I'm also new to the field of longevity, so probably I need to grasp the whole conceptual framework.

 

From what I gathered in the last few months of delving into this novel topic to me.

 

There are some metabolic pathways which are activated by nutrients contained in cell tissues, especially so dietary aminoacids. 

Specifically, mTOR is particularly sensitive to Leucine and IGF-1 to methionine. These metabolic sensors, if triggered, start a cascade of cellulare metabolic reactions which are as a whole unfavourable to longevity. For example, mTOR favours growth to the expense of the cellular mechanisms of maintenance and repair. Allegedly paving the way to degenerative diseases and cancer.

Hence, it would make sense to restrict proteins. Restriction is meant as meeting the minimum individual requirement without starving (loosing muscle mass). What is a minimum individual requirement is not easy to define, since minimum requirement is a random variable.

the IIS is also a glucose sensor, but now I'm focusing on proteins.

 

Any comments on the above? Are you guys practicing any protein restriction strategy and specific Leu+Met or other aminos restriction?

 

Please note that the general proteins RDA value of 0.8 g/kg ideal weight/day is not a restriction for about 95% of the population (it is the 97.5 %-ile of the statistical distribution of the minimum requirements).

 

 

I'll later post the WHO, 2002 statistical distribution used to define the RDA, which is a cautious value, hence usually not a restriction.

[Todd Allen]

 

Specifically, mTOR is particularly sensitive to Leucine and IGF-1 to methionine.

 

I found the same info and dramatically boosted my intake of leucine, primarily as undenatured whey protein concentrate from organic pastured dairy (tastes great), plus additional powdered BCAAs (tastes awful).  Supposedly leucine is metabolized quickly and is hard to over do and is most effective when used timed to intense resistance training.  I've also dramatically boosted methionine, but from whole foods as it isn't metabolized as fast and is more readily raised to a harmful level.

 

For me, with a genetic neuromuscular wasting disease, survival is more immediately dependent on muscle development and my results so far have been promising, significant strength and muscle gains in the past 10 weeks while losing over 30 lbs of weight in the past 5 months restricting carbohydrates.  Long term I hope to balance risks of accelerated aging by periodic fasting (or FMD or whatever seems to work out best through trial).

[Danielovich]

Josh made a series of posts on this topic recently:
http://joshmitteldorf.scienceblog.com/2016/09/05/nutritional-geometry/

[mccoy]

Josh made a series of posts on this topic recently:

http://joshmitteldorf.scienceblog.com/2016/09/05/nutritional-geometry/

 

Thanks Danielovich, interesting article which I'm going to comment once I'll be able to read it with more detail. 

[Gordo]

This topic has been discussed quite a lot in the forums, use the search tool.

As for the Mitteldorf article, not sure where he got the idea that the low carb thing was more than a fad.  I don't think anyone serious in longevity research is promoting it. For some reason many people equate carbs with refined sugar and white flour, but that's really just junk food.  You should be getting most of your calories from carbs.  I also laugh when I read things like he wrote where he says he eats his fill of fruit but still craves "protein".  First, fruit is not a meal, but second, most people who don't eat a plant based diet have no idea how much volume is required to get the equivalent calorie intake that they used to when eating meat.  Plants are generally not calorie dense, you have to get used to eating large volumes and even stretching your stomach.  He probably isn't craving "protein", he is craving calories.  The human body simply does not need the mega dose of protein most people have been consuming.  To give you an idea of what I'm talking about, for lunch today I had a bowl of spinach, a large apple, a cucumber, sprouted wheat, an orange sweet potato, a purple sweet potato, quinoa, rice, mixed nuts, 2 plums, blackberries, a lime, ginger root, turmeric root, pepper, flax seed, chia seed, a banana with sunflower butter,  EVO, a red beet, natto, a red onion, broccoli, cauliflower, prunes, blueberries, and baby carrots.  This required 2 full sized plates, a bowl, and a tray.  Changing to a diet like this requires an adjustment period though, you have to build up to this level of fiber and change in diet not to mention the large volume of food.

 

 

 

Specifically, mTOR is particularly sensitive to Leucine and IGF-1 to methionine.

 

I found the same info and dramatically boosted my intake of leucine, primarily as undenatured whey protein concentrate from organic pastured dairy (tastes great), plus additional powdered BCAAs (tastes awful).  Supposedly leucine is metabolized quickly and is hard to over do and is most effective when used timed to intense resistance training.  I've also dramatically boosted methionine, but from whole foods as it isn't metabolized as fast and is more readily raised to a harmful level.

 

For me, with a genetic neuromuscular wasting disease, survival is more immediately dependent on muscle development and my results so far have been promising, significant strength and muscle gains in the past 10 weeks while losing over 30 lbs of weight in the past 5 months restricting carbohydrates.  Long term I hope to balance risks of accelerated aging by periodic fasting (or FMD or whatever seems to work out best through trial).

 

 

Just for clarification to someone reading this thread - Todd is trying to beat a serious disease, and while I wish him the best, I kind of think posts like the one above may do more harm than good on a forum like this (know your audience), in the very least it could lead to confusion.  If you are not fighting a disease and you are looking for optimal health and longevity, you pretty much want to do the opposite of everything he mentions above.  Although not without critics, the latest longevity research suggests you want to lower IGF-1 and mTOR signaling.  

 

Here is a summary on mTOR:

 

mTOR in aging, metabolism, and cancer

 

"...consistent with its role as a nutrient and growth factor sensor, decreased mTOR signaling reduces aging and thereby extends lifespan. Importantly, aging is a major risk factor for the development of cancer and metabolic disorders. Thus, mTOR underlies both aging and age-related diseases, suggesting that insight in mTOR signaling may provide a means to counter both aging and age-related disease by a single ‘treatment’."

 

This is why big pharma is trying to produce a "safe" version of rapamycin that they can sell to the masses.

 

Longo (and others) of course has published quite a lot on IGF-1, no need to rehash that here.

 

It seems to me that the majority of CR Society members eat low protein, plant based diets and avoid protein supplements.  Some eat salmon on a regular basis for the DHA & EPA, others get their DHA & EPA from algae based supplements and ALA sources like flaxseed and chia seed (with controversial conversion rates) or a combination of these.  Avoiding meat and dairy (and protein supplements) seems to result in lower IGF-1 and mTOR activation.  You can obviously go overboard on trying to reduce amino acids, which will cause more harm than good.  I eat lots of beans, nuts, and seeds for example, but amost nothing from the "top 10" below:

 

Below is a list of the top 10 foods highest in leucine with the %RDI calculated for someone weighting 70kg (154lbs). For more high leucine foods see the extended list of leucine rich foods.

#1: Cheese (Parmesan)

Leucine 100g Per ounce (28g) Per cubic inch (10g) 3452mg (126% RDI) 967mg (35% RDI) 345mg (13% RDI)

Other Cheeses High in Leucine (%RDI per ounce): Gruyere & Romano (32%), Swiss (30%), Fontina & Hard Goat's Cheese (27%), Edam, Gouda & Tilsit (26%). Click to see complete nutrition facts.

 

 

#2: Soybeans (Roasted)

Leucine 100g Per cup (93g) Per 1/2 cup (47g) 3223mg (118% RDI) 2997mg (110% RDI) 1499mg (55% RDI)

Other Soy Foods High in Leucine (%RDI per cup): Natto (97%), Soy Flour & Tempeh (87%), Soybeans, boiled (85%), Miso (83%), and Firm Tofu (68%). Click to see complete nutrition facts.

 

 

#3: Beef (Sirloin, grilled)

Leucine 100g Per fillet (115g) Per 3oz (85g) 3165mg (116% RDI) 3640mg (133% RDI) 2690mg (99% RDI)

Other Red Meats High in Leucine (%RDI per 3oz, cooked):Lean Steak (98%), Beef Rib Eye (93%), Veal Leg (91%), Lamb Shoulder (86%), Venison (85%), Veal Sirloin (84%), and Stewing Lamb (82%). Click to see complete nutrition facts.

 

 

#4: Chicken (Breast, cooked)

Leucine 100g Per breast (181g) Per 3oz (85g) 2652mg (97% RDI) 4800mg (176% RDI) 2254mg (83% RDI)

Other Poultry High in Leucine (%RDI per 3oz, cooked): Fat Free Ground Turkey (81%), Turkey Wings (78%), Chicken Stewing Meat (77%), Turkey Breast (76%), Turkey Drumsticks (72%), Chicken Wings & Chicken Drumsticks (71%). Click to see complete nutrition facts.

 

 

#5: Pork (Sirloin, cooked)

Leucine 100g Per piece (609g) Per 3oz (85g) 2560mg (94% RDI) 15590mg (571% RDI) 2176mg (80% RDI)

Other Pork Cuts High in Leucine (%RDI per 3oz, cooked):Ground Pork & Pork Chops (79%), Pork Tenderloin (76%), Ham (74%), and Spareribs (73%). Click to see complete nutrition facts.

 

 

#6: Pumpkin Seeds

Leucine 100g Per cup (129g) Per ounce (28g) 2419mg (89% RDI) 3121mg (114% RDI) 677mg (25% RDI)

Other Seeds & Nuts High in Leucine (%RDI per ounce):Sunflower Seeds (17%), Pistachio Nuts (16%), Sesame Seeds & Almonds (15%), Chia Seeds (14%), Flaxseeds & Cashew Nuts (13%), and Brazil Nuts (12%). Click to see complete nutrition facts.

 

 

#7: Fish (Tuna, cooked)

Leucine 100g Per 1/2 fillet (154g) Per 3oz (85g) 2293mg (84% RDI) 3531mg (129% RDI) 1949mg (71% RDI)

Other Fish High in Leucine (%RDI per 3oz, cooked): Wild Salmon (69%), Trout & Snapper (67%), Mackerel (66%), Salmon (65%), Halibut & Tilapia (64%), and Pollock (63%). Click to see complete nutrition facts.

 

 

#8: Seafood (Octopus, cooked)

Leucine 100g Per 3oz (85g) Per ounce (28g) 2099mg (77% RDI) 1784mg (65% RDI) 595mg (22% RDI)

Other Seafood High in Leucine (%RDI per 3oz, cooked):Lobster (65%), Shrimp (61%), Crab (58%), Clams (56%), Mussels (52%), and Crayfish (43%). Click to see complete nutrition facts.

 

 

#9: Peanuts 

Leucine 100g Per cup (144g) Per ounce (28g) 1812mg (66% RDI) 2609mg (96% RDI) 507mg (19% RDI)

Peanut Butter is also High in Leucine (%RDI per cup):Smooth Peanut Butter (146%), and Chunky Peanut Butter (144%). Click to see complete nutrition facts.

 

 

#10: Beans (White, cooked)

Leucine 100g Per cup (179g) Per tablespoon (11g) 776mg (28% RDI) 1389mg (51% RDI) 85mg (3% RDI)

Other Beans High in Leucine (%RDI per cup, cooked):Cranberry, Pinto & Kidney Beans (48%), Yellow Beans, Navy Beans & Small White Beans (47%), Pink Beans & Black Beans (45%). Click to see complete nutrition facts.

 

 

And here is the top 10 list for Methionine.

 

 Below is a list of the top 10 foods highest in methionine with the %RDI calculated for someone weighting 70kg (154lbs). For more high methionine foods see the extended list of methionine rich foods.

#1: Brazil Nuts 

Methionine 100g Per cup (133g) Per ounce (28g) 1124mg (154% RDI) 1495mg (205% RDI) 315mg (43% RDI)

Other Nuts & Seeds High in Methionine (%RDI per ounce):Sesame Seeds (34%), Watermelon Seeds (32%), Pumpkin Seeds & Chia Seeds (23%), Sunflower Seeds (19%), Flaxseeds (14%), Pistachio Nuts (13%), and Cashew Nuts (11%). Click to see complete nutrition facts.

 

 

#2: Lean Beef & Lamb (Roast Beef)

Methionine 100g Per piece (296g) Per 3oz (85g) 981mg (135% RDI) 2904mg (399% RDI) 834mg (115% RDI)

Other Beef & Lamb Cuts High in Methionine (%RDI per 3oz, cooked): New Zealand Beef (133%), New Zealand Lamb (127%), Grilled Steak (113%), Beef Pot Roast & Beef Ribs (108%), Lamb Shoulder (106%), Beef Tenderloin (104%), and Australian Lamb (102%). Click to see complete nutrition facts.

 

 

#3: Cheese (Parmesan)

Methionine 100g Per ounce (28g) Per cubic inch (10g) 958mg (132% RDI) 268mg (37% RDI) 96mg (13% RDI)

Other Cheeses High in Methionine (%RDI per ounce):Romano (33%), Gruyere (32%), Hard Goat's Cheese (31%), Swiss (30%), Edam (28%), Reduced Fat Mozzarella (26%), Colby (24%), and Low Fat Cottage Cheese (15%). Click to see complete nutrition facts.

 

 

#4: Turkey & Chicken (Chicken Breast, cooked)

Methionine 100g Per 1/2 breast (86g) Per 3oz (85g) 925mg (127% RDI) 796mg (109% RDI) 786mg (108% RDI)

Other Turkey & Chicken Cuts High in Methionine (%RDI per 3oz, cooked):Fat Free Ground Turkey (109%), Chicken Stewing Meat & Chicken Wing (99%), Turkey Breast & Ground Turkey (94%), Chicken Drumsticks & Turkey Leg (93%), Turkey Drumsticks & Wings (92%). Click to see complete nutrition facts.

 

 

#5: Pork (Sirloin, cooked)

Methionine 100g Per piece (609g) Per 3oz (85g) 853mg (117% RDI) 5195mg (714% RDI) 725mg (100% RDI)

Other Pork Cuts High in Methionine (%RDI per 3oz, cooked): Bacon (125%), Pork Chops & Lean Ground Pork (99%), Pork Tenderloin & Ribs (94%), and Ham (92%). Click to see complete nutrition facts.

 

 

#6: Fish & Shellfish (Tuna, cooked)

Methionine 100g Per 1/2 fillet (154g) Per 3oz (85g) 835mg (115% RDI) 1286mg (177% RDI) 710mg (98% RDI)

Other Fish & Shellfish High in Methionine (%RDI per 3oz, cooked): Salmon (96%), Snapper (91%), Mackerel (90%), Halibut (87%), Pollock & Mullet & Crab (86%), Seabass (82%), Shrimp (78%), Clams (67%), Mussels (63%), and Crayfish (58%). Click to see complete nutrition facts.

 

 

#7: Soybeans (Roasted)

Methionine 100g Per cup (93g) Per ounce (28g) 534mg (73% RDI) 497mg (68% RDI) 150mg (20% RDI)

Other Soya Foods High in Methionine (%RDI per ounce):Dried Frozen Tofu (Koyadofu) (24%), Soychips (15%), Boiled Soybeans & Fried Tofu (9%), Natto (8%), and Tempeh (7%). Click to see complete nutrition facts.

 

 

#8: Eggs (Hard Boiled)

Methionine 100g Per cup, chopped (136g) Per egg (50g) 392mg (54% RDI) 533mg (73% RDI) 196mg (27% RDI)

Other Eggs High in Methionine (%RDI per egg): Omelette (27%), Raw Egg, Poached Egg & Fried Egg (26%), Scrambled Egg (25%), Egg White (18%), and Egg Yolk (9%). Click to see complete nutrition facts.

 

 

#9: Dairy (Yogurt, plain)

Methionine 100g Per cup (245g) Per container (170g) 169mg (23% RDI) 414mg (57% RDI) 287mg (39% RDI)

Other Dairy Products High in Methionine (%RDI per cup):Low Fat Yogurt (52%), Skimmed Milk (30%), Semi-skimmed Milk (29%), Whole Milk & Buttermilk (28%), and Sour Cream (21%). Click to see complete nutrition facts.

 

 

#10: Beans (White, cooked)

Methionine 100g Per cup (179g) Per tablespoon (11g) 146mg (20% RDI) 261mg (36% RDI) 16mg (2% RDI)

Other Beans High in Methionine (%RDI per cup, cooked):Cranberry (Roman) Beans (34%), Pink Beans (32%), Black Beans & Black Turtle Beans (31%), Navy Beans (28%), Pinto Beans & Kidney Beans (27%), and Chickpeas (26%). Click to see complete nutrition facts.

[Todd Allen]

I was trying to improve my long term risk factors eating more like Gordo and Dean, eating one large or two smaller meals daily with large amounts of raw vegetables (with parmesan and brazil nuts...) .  And I was struggling with erratic bowel transit times and bloating.   Last night the sh*t hit the fan so to speak when after a long difficult attempt at a bowel movement I was rewarded with what appears to be a double inguinal hernia pushing deep into my groin on both sides.  My neurologist said tests showed my abdominal muscles were quite atrophied and this is not an uncommon event for men with advanced muscle wasting and I should have stuck with frequent small meals.  I've been advised to get to an emergency room immediately and will be heading out soon.  Unfortunately they are going to want to do a CT with contrast, which will make the 5th time in 2 years ingesting radioactive crap.

 

I appreciated Josh's blog posts and think he covered major contentious issues in a balanced way.  And I believe his conclusion is correct, people's individual genetics, circumstances and age are giant factors and one needs to experiment with diet to find what works best for themselves and continue doing so as they age.

 

I had all 5 bio markers of metabolic syndrome.  Shortly after reconfiguring my diet with Dean's advice I bought a consumer diabetic's blood glucose and ketone meter and started testing.  And found my response to many fruits was poor even after having already eliminated high glycemic carbs.  And so I've transitioned towards a more ketogenic diet, lots of low carb veggies, modest amounts of fruit I tolerate such as lemons, limes, cranberries and blueberries and shifting to getting most of my calories from fat, adding in a lot of EVOO, coconut oil and cream (too much pufa may be harmful) and after cutting eggs down for a couple weeks went back to roughly 3 eggs/day.  I got new blood test results last week.  Previously my triglycerides was 235 (which I found out is very typical for my disease) and now it is 104.  Every other bio marker of metabolic syndrome improved along with those for inflammation.

 

Prior to my abdominal blowout I was making big gains in strength and fitness and with luck and hopefully a well done repair I'll be back at it.  I'm an outlier, but metabolic syndrome / glucose intolerance / insulin resistance is common.  For many reducing high glycemic carbs is sufficient.  Exercise and cold exposure likely help.  But for some of us, for a variety of different reasons, other approaches may be needed and Josh's comments regarding possible factors why one might consider cutting carbs and boosting fat or protein appear on target to me.

 

Also, Alzheimers is one of the fastest growing major causes of death.  I think it remains to be seen what strategies will best minimize the risk, but at least in some cases high fat diets can be neuroprotective and boosting GH/IGF1 can also help.  Other degenerations of aging such as osteoporosis and sarcopenia might also be factors for some to stray from consensus guidelines for optimal longevity.

[mccoy]

 

 

Specifically, mTOR is particularly sensitive to Leucine and IGF-1 to methionine.

 

I found the same info and dramatically boosted my intake of leucine, primarily as undenatured whey protein concentrate from organic pastured dairy (tastes great), plus additional powdered BCAAs (tastes awful).  Supposedly leucine is metabolized quickly and is hard to over do and is most effective when used timed to intense resistance training.  I've also dramatically boosted methionine, but from whole foods as it isn't metabolized as fast and is more readily raised to a harmful level.

 

For me, with a genetic neuromuscular wasting disease, survival is more immediately dependent on muscle development and my results so far have been promising, significant strength and muscle gains in the past 10 weeks while losing over 30 lbs of weight in the past 5 months restricting carbohydrates.  Long term I hope to balance risks of accelerated aging by periodic fasting (or FMD or whatever seems to work out best through trial).

 

 

Best wishes Todd, I believe FMD is probably going to be great to balance your needed uptake of Leucine and methionine.

[mccoy]

@ Gordo:

 

Your diet sure sounds very healthy.

also thanks for the exhaustive list on Leucine and methionine rich foods.

 

I'm a lacto-ovo vegetarian, so I reach pretty soon the Leu & Met thresholds, got to develop an alternative strategy.

 

Another challenge is to juggle protein restriction and muscle growth. It sounds like an oxymoron but there are some hints around (like the Dr. Attia with Rhonda video) which would suggest that's not impossible.

 

I'm monitoring my weight and muscle size and protein and AAs intake so that I can have a clue about protein/AAs quantities and minimum requirement.

 

According to Dr Attia, we should aim to activate mTOR in the muscle cell and inhibit it in other cells like liver, organs and so on.

He takes 5 gr pure leucine during workouts, contending that muscle tissue will sequester Leucine preferentially before other tissues. So muscle tissue, during and after a work out, would behave like a Leucine sink.

Very interesting theory.

 

I'm wary of protein powders but one pound of yogurt sounds like a very good natural source of leucine, likewise 100 grams of parmesan or swiss cheese.

 

Also some articles I'm reading would suggest that tryptophan is another AA to check.

[mccoy]

My take on carbs restriction is that it is very useful to some people, for example those who have insulin resistance and are overweight.

 

Very often they just cannot shed their excess weight with a simple caloric restriction. Whereas drastically restricting carbs and intermittent fasting will eventually restore the balance.

The theory is pretty logical and many renowned low carbers like Dr rosedale and Dr Fung insist on protein restriction, in addition to carbs restriction.

Actually, the first time I heard about protein restriction was from them.

 

I experimented carb restriction on myself and almost immediately lost 6 pounds, together with other signs of serum insulin decrease (enhanced diuresis, sudden drop in libido due to  increased BSHG). It works, although it's not suited to everyone of course and should include proteins and saturated fats moderation.

[mccoy]

From Fontana & PArtridge, 2015:

 

 

In Drosophila and rodents, restriction of methionine and tryptophan, respectively, extends average and maximal lifespan (Ables et al., 2014; Miller et al., 2005; Zimmerman et al., 2003). In the DR Rhesus monkey trials, the Wisconsin diet contained higher concentrations of methionine and branched-chain amino acids derived from lactalbumin than did the NIA diet (Table 2), which could explain some of the differences in effects on cancer and mortality.

....

In humans, little is known on the effects of dietary modifications of protein quantity and quality in modulating molecular pathways that control aging, stress resistance, and age-associated diseases. Nonetheless, ongoing clinical trials should soon begin to reveal the metabolic and molecular adaptations induced by protein restriction and alterations of amino acid intake in relativity healthy overweight human subjects and in cancer patients.

 

Maybe some more details on humans is revealed in the recent 2016 paper:

 

 

 

 

Dietary Protein, Metabolism, and Aging

Annual Review of Biochemistry

Vol. 85: 5-34 (Volume publication date June 2016)

First published online as a Review in Advance on April 29, 2016

DOI: 10.1146/annurev-biochem-060815-014422

George A. Soultoukis1 and Linda Partridge1,2

which alas is not freely downloadable, wonder if mailing the authors might be a way to get some free authors copies.

[Sibiriak]

Cf. 

 

The Skeletal Muscle Anabolic Response to Plant- versus Animal-Based Protein Consumption

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26224750

 

 

(The full text has detailed leucine and methionine content info.)

[mccoy]

Thanks for the good reference, Sibiriak.

 

From tabe 1 it is very interesting to read (the obvious thing) that Americas, Europe and Oceania do not appear in the average to practice any moderation in the amount of proteins, with an approximate daily intake of 100 grams/day. Taking as a reference an estimated average ideal weight of 75 kg that would be 1.3 g/kg/d, which is about 167% the usual reference RDA of 0.8 g/kg/d, which by itself is a cautious value, that is a pretty high value (97.5 percentile of minimum requirements).

 

If we take as a reference the modal minimum requirement from the WHO, 2002 report (mixed animal+plant based proteins), which is 0.66 g/kg/d, then the average 'western' intake of proteins becomes 200% of the modal, or most frequent minimum requirement, which most probably would mean giving a positive triggering signal to mTOR and other metabolic pathways.

Pls note, the non parametric distribution (hystogram) has been adapted in the WHO study to a parametric lognormal distribution. The figure reads 'median' but actually I'm not sure that it should read 'mode', either the parameter is wrong or the figure is wrong .

 

Who's 2002 statistical distribution of protein requirement, chapter 7, figure 13, quantities in mg nitrogen per kg per day, n=235, mixed diets of animal and pant based proteins. Weights of individuals are compatible with ideal weight.

 

[mccoy]

My bottom line based on the above distributions is that we should base the concept of PR (protein restriction) upon the modal value of 0.66 g/kg/d, not the 0.83 RDA which is a safe value.

 

An intake equal to the RDA would mean that, statistically speaking and with no further detail known, in the 95% of cases we would not be practicing PR, if we define 'restriction' as being exactly at our zero nitrogen balance point.

 

Of course the modal value is a statistical parameter, so our own individual vaue may be different. Hence, we should determine individually our own minimum proteic requirement and stick to it.

 

The above relates of course to total proteins (animal and vegetable origin). The AAs issue would be a further refinement of PR, unless we want to give precedence to EAAs in determining the minimum requirement and give subordinate importance to total nitrogen/proteins.

 

That would be another viable and maybe better strategy, if we have reliable info on minimum requirements of EAAs known to boost mTOR, IIS and other anabolic pathways.

 

Please understand that I'm just writing down my thoughts at this moment, thoughts which might change after having heard other comments and read other literature. 

[mccoy]

From the Van vliet et al., 2015 study it would turn out that methionine's maintenance value (most frequent minimum requirement) is 10 mg /kg/d, pls correct me if I got it wrong. I just checked the cronometer app, that's the RDA default value indicated in the app itsef. 

Whereas, always in cronometer, the total protein default value is  closer to the safe value of 0.88 rather than to the maintenance value of 0.66 (which is an averge value, close to the WHO, 2002 modal factor of 0.63).

 

That would mean, and please note that I might be wrong and and that any corrections are much welcome, that there is a discrepancy between the cronometer default reference for total proteins and the cronometer default reference for Methionine. That is, the default values are the WHO safe value (97.5%ile ) in total proteins, the maintenance in the case of methionine.  If that it so, we should just keep it in mind when reading the methionine target relative to total proteins, or may be set our custom values of total proteins to 0.66 kg/g/.

 

 

 

According to recommendations by the World Health Organization/Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations/United Nations University (WHO/FAO/UNU) (46), daily dietary requirements for lysine are ∼30 mg/(kg body weight · d) per day or ∼4.5% of the content of the total amount of dietary protein consumed. For methionine, daily dietary needs are estimated to be ∼10 mg/(kg body weight · d) or ∼1.6% of the content of the total amount of dietary protein consumed (46). Note that these percentage requirements are based on a recommended adult protein intake of 0.66 g/(kg body weight · d). 

[mccoy]

As an aside to the Van vliet et al., 2015 study I would comment that I'd rather eat natural milk and yogurt (if tolerant) than eat processed vegetable protein powders fortified with crystalline BCAAs.

 

Also, it is debatable if a lower bulk amount of dairy products would be conducive to better health rather than an higher volume of legumes and cereals. Probably it all depends upon individual factors.

[Gordo]

A couple of comments...

First, regarding bowl movements, there is nothing better than a plant based diet!  Anyone who has seriously been on a plant based diet knows this.  But a "half" plant based diet isn't going to do it, in fact, that could make things worse.  It's the meat that stops you up.

 

Regarding protein and longevity, my advice is not to overthink it.  You will get all the protein you need, without supplements, from a plant based whole food diet (and probably more than you need if you aren't on a plant based diet). If you must, you can always take a pea protein supplement which is a complete protein.  I'm not sure why you would want to excessively bulk up in the muscle department other than you want to look a certain way and don't care about longevity (or you are fighting a muscle wasting disease) - but if you do AND still want to eat a plant based diet, there are hundreds of youtube videos from vegan strong men (some have even been posted on these forums).  

 

Here's what a 300-pound vegan NFL player eats every day

(I eat most of the same things, just not 10,000 kcal / day!)

 

The only powerlifter the US sent to the olympics this Summer was also a vegan:

THE VEGAN DIET OF AMERICAN OLYMPIC WEIGHTLIFTER KENDRICK FARRIS

 

Also I want to point out that it is a myth that high carb diets lead to insulin resistance.  See: 

What Causes Insulin Resistance?

 

I also think it's very important to fight sarcopenia and osteoporosis, a high protein diet is not required for this, but a BMI>20 is in my opinion, as is short duration, vigorous/intense exercise.  But we all have our different ideas about this.  If you click my profile picture you can see more of a description about what I do, as well as a pic of what I look like if that matters.

[Sibiriak]

Josh made a series of posts on this topic recently:

http://joshmitteldorf.scienceblog.com/2016/09/05/nutritional-geometry/

 

 

One of the comments on post caught my eye.

 

Ariel Gallo on September 7, 2016 at 3:41

 

[...]This is a 79-year-old mouse who enjoys every second of its existence without medications or supplements of any sort. All right, back to first person. However, I have gone through a lot of trial and error to get here. Valter Longo, yes, a young Italian who got a perfect niche for himself by reinventing the fasting wheel, while aware of the boundaries established by the medical industry. Fasting starves cancer, he says, but it is worth nothing without chemotherapy… He surely knows that well supervised fasting could be enough, but is clever enough to stop before being knocked off the rails. He has invented a fast-mimicking diet, to minimize the panic of a possible hunger death. Luigi Fontana’s favourite proteins are also the vegetable type.

 

The 65 years of age turning point in the survey report was an eye-opener for me and I certainly took advantage of it. In 2005 I wrote in my diary about the advanced-age state of my joints. How wrong I was! When I adopted Time Restricted Feeding (TRF) in 2013 my weight went down along with the BMI, which shifted from the overweight side of the scale to a comfortable 23, and it kept that way. However, not all was as impressive as my loss of weight. My wrists, knees, shoulders, neck and at times muscles, were the object of eight pain entries to my diary during the first seven months of 2014.

 

Recovery times improved noticeably, I must say. I had kept a very conservative attitude towards eating proteins for many years, to the point of having a proteinic meal only once a week. As soon as I read the study results mentioned above, I realised that because I was well past age 65, probably missed very valuable nutrients. My first meal remained a 5-fruit and nuts brunch, but to the second I added a daily animal protein food, such as fish, eggs or meat. Eureka! My joint problems disappeared in a seemingly magic way. Appetite and weight have somewhat increased, but my levels of energy have remained unhindered for two years. Although I always remain vigilant to any bodily messages, nothing suggested so far that I should change.     [etc.]  (emphasis added)

 

 

 

"Reinventing the fasting wheel"  hits the nail on the head!   

[mccoy]

I read the recent soultoukis & Partridge 2016 article. In a sense, it was disappointing because there is really nothing new immediately applicable in practice. Some emphasys on tryptophan, and on the GCN2, GPCRs mechanisms beyond mTOR and IIS.

 

At the end, they make it clear that not very much is known yet about individual requirements and that, between the lines, restriction can be dangerous. There are no quantitative suggestions.

 

 

The EAA requirements of individual cells or tissues can vary depending on tissue-specific AA metabolism. For example, enterocytes secrete threonine-rich proteins and so require a higher threonine intake than other cell types (47, 55). Hepatocytes require high levels of methionine to serve many transsulfation, transmethylation, and folate metabolism reactions (55). The type and abundance of AA transporters also determines which AAs enter readily into which cells. These aspects require further study in conjunction with more systematic analysis of tissue-specific usage of individual AAs. In humans, gender defines AA requirements as males require more AAs than nonpregnant females, which reflects body size differences to an extent (4, 24). Beyond inborn errors of metabolism, the maintenance of health requires adequate AA supply, as multiple immunological processes depend on AAs and an imbalanced AA intake can suppress the immune system (20). The efficiency of the immune response declines and the susceptibility to infections increases upon low AA intake (4); thus, infectious or disease conditions that increase the function of immunological processes may raise dietary AA requirements (20). In the future, more work will be required to understand how specific disease states increase the requirement for specific AAs, as an imbalanced AA intake can suppress the immune system (20). In addition, healthy physical activity increases the metabolic rate and promotes protein degradation, AA oxidation, and depression of protein synthesis in humans, thereby increasing AA requirements (4). The metabolic rate of individuals can also be modulated by environmental conditions, as lower temperatures can increase the metabolic rate in endothermic animals (4). Similarly, seasonal increases in day cycle duration can promote physical activity, thereby increasing the metabolic rate particularly at younger ages (4). Such increases in metabolic rate also translate to increases in AA requirements. In summary, numerous findings from different branches of nutritional research clearly indicate that both environmental and internal state factors must be considered when estimating AA requirements. Such considerations make possible the prospect of defining individualized AA requirements. In turn, individualized AA patterns hold a promising potential for promoting health.

[mccoy]

Re insuline resistance: maybe the two views can be reconciled. There are very differing views from doctors with the same level of credentials and that's extremely confusing. But fat together with carbs is known to cause insulin peaks. Also, proteins are known to cause insulin peaks. Real low carbers eat little or no carbs though, so fats have a neutral effect on insulin.

The Greger vid just showed that fat, ingested with pure glucose, increases serum insulin concentrationacting on the receptor cascade.

[mccoy]

...

 

Regarding protein and longevity, my advice is not to overthink it.  You will get all the protein you need, without supplements, from a plant based whole food diet (and probably more than you need if you aren't on a plant based diet). If you must, you can always take a pea protein supplement which is a complete protein.  I'm not sure why you would want to excessively bulk up in the muscle department other than you want to look a certain way and don't care about longevity (or you are fighting a muscle wasting disease) - but if you do AND still want to eat a plant based diet, there are hundreds of youtube videos from vegan strong men (some have even been posted on these forums).  

Gordo, the vegan strongmen you posted are really formidable ones! Those are some hungry guys though, they have not my limited digestion problems and can gulp down all the macronutrients they wish. My only doubt is about the 1.2 pounds of proteins per day,l meaning about 500 grams, that is more than 4 gr/kg/d, sounds really excessive. mTOR and IIS are definitely upregulated here!!

 

I like to be pretty muscular, though not excessively bulky and I value physical strenght, so, after years of forced inactivity, I started some weightlifting again. I know it's a challenge to moderate protein and build muscle mass but I have no hurry, it's an ongoing experiment here.

 

My stints with veganism in the past have not been overly satisfactory, so I'm all right with lacto-ovo, a diet which served me well for 40 years now. Presently, I'm just moderating animal proteins. Since when I'm using the cronometer app, I'm amazed how easy it is to accumulate dietary proteins, so I just check them and eat small amounts of animal proteins. 40 grams of swiss cheese is not a lot of food and contains 12 grams of proteins.  I'm going to introduce some legumes but I'm not an hungry man, I get satiated pretty soon and hate digestive distress.

[Sibiriak]

Something to consider:

 

 

Increased protein use for building and repair of muscle tissue in periods of strength training, together with an increase in protein oxidation during endurance training, have been suggested as potential mechanisms underlying an association between training status and protein requirement.

The effect of aerobic exercise training on protein turnover during a set level of protein intake was tested in a study of seven young men and women (pooled)using stable isotope methodology (71). Protein intake was adjusted to 0.88 g/kg BW per day during a 2-week adaptation to the study diet. Thereafter, the subjects participated in 4 weeks of endurance training (walking and running 45 times per week at 85% of maximal heart rate), while following the study diet. The data indicated improved protein utilization in response to the exercise training; improved N-balance, decreased protein oxidation, and a tendency toward an improvement in nonoxidative leucine deposition (measurement of whole-body protein synthesis).  [...]

 

[...]A longer training study was performed by Hartman et al. (72) who studied the response to 12 weeks of resistance exercise training (whole-body split routine five times/week) in eight young men.Whole-body nitrogen flux (Q), protein synthesis (PS), protein breakdown (PB), and net protein balance (NPBPS-PB) was measured by a stable isotope tracer of glycine before and after the exercise program during a 5-day period with controlled macronutrient intake (1.2 g protein/kg BW/day). Reductions were found in both PS and PB after the training program, whereas the net balance between synthesis and breakdown improved, suggesting that dietary requirements for protein in resistance trained formerly novice athletes, are not higher, but rather lower after resistance training.
 

 

Health effects of protein intake in healthy adults: a systematic literature review

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23908602

[Sibiriak]

See also:

 

Influence of Amino Acids, Dietary Protein, and Physical Activity on Muscle Mass Development in Humans

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23486194

 

 

 

 

[mccoy]

 

 

Reductions were found in both PS and PB after the training program, whereas the net balance between synthesis and breakdown improved, suggesting that dietary requirements for protein in resistance trained formerly novice athletes, are not higher, but rather lower after resistance training.

 

That's yet another interesting example of observed adaptation and consequent optimization of nutrients absorption. 

[mccoy]

This excerpt, drawn from Al's updates on literature, would suggest that PR in mice, per se would nto be an effective longevity strategy. Contrary to previous studies and current thoughts.

Type of proteins,k not enough restriction, who knows... Nutrition appears to be ruled by variability.

 

Oncotarget. 2015 Sep 15; 6(27): 23213–23237.

Published online 2015 Jun 1. doi:  10.18632/oncotarget.4003

PMCID: PMC4695113

The effects of graded levels of calorie restriction: II. Impact of short term calorie and protein restriction on circulating hormone levels, glucose homeostasis and oxidative stress in male C57BL/6 mice

Sharon E. Mitchell,1 Camille Delville,1 Penelope Konstantopedos,1 Jane Hurst,2 Davina Derous,1 Cara Green,1 Luonan Chen,3 Jackie J.D. Han,4 Yingchun Wang,5 Daniel E.L. Promislow,6 David Lusseau,1 Alex Douglas,1 and John R. Speakman1,5

 

 

 

Protein restriction (PR)

Although a number of studies have reported increases in maximum longevity following PR [82, 131], here we found no changes in any of the parameters we measured that have been previously implicated in the longevity effects of CR. Improvements in insulin sensitivity is a key characteristic of CR that was not replicated by PR. The lack of response in the levels of IGF-1 and adipokines were unsurprising given the body composition of PR mice remained unchanged [18]. One of the most highly reported ideas behind the life extending effects of PR is the attenuation of oxidative stress. PR has been shown to exert life extending effects through a decrease in the accumulation of oxidative damage and increase in antioxidant defenses [126,132, 133] (also see recent review [134]), however no such changes were found here. In fact the accumulation of oxidatively damaged proteins was found to be of a similar magnitude in mice fed the PR diets compared to mice fed the protein matched CR diets.

In addition to PR, restriction of the essential amino acid methionine (MR) has also been reported to enhance longevity, potentially mediated via impacts such as lowered serum glucose, insulin and IGF-I plus an increased resistance to oxidative damage [132, 135, 136]. Interestingly, unlike PR, changes in body composition, particularly reduced visceral fat, accompanied MR with subsequent reduction in insulin, glucose and leptin [137]. Although some believe MR to play a contributory role in CR effects, comparisons of gene expression profiles do not significantly overlap, suggesting independent pathways between CR and MR [138].

Why our results do not encapsulate those previously shown following PR is unclear. The restricted diets in this study were specifically formulated to match the level of protein used in our CR study (16, 14 and 12% protein). There is a possibility the level of PR was not stringent enough as studies where PR has shown a life extending effect the diet contained a range from ∼5 to 15%, protein, although the levels used here were at the top end of the range they were still within the range [131, 139]. However, consistent over the studies was that in the cases where PR did extend lifespan, this was to a lower extent of that demonstrated by CR, with PR only accounting for ∼50% of the life-extending effect of CR [136]. It should be noted that studies looking at the response to reductions in dietary fat [140] or carbohydrate [141] without an overall energy deficit also do not replicate the beneficial effects related to CR.

[Sibiriak]

I'm a lacto-ovo vegetarian, so I reach pretty soon the Leu & Met thresholds, got to develop an alternative strategy.  Another challenge is to juggle protein restriction and muscle growth.

 

Why not go for methionine reduction + adequate leucine (i.e. ditch the eggs) while focusing on optimal meal frequency/protein amounts and an optimal muscle growth/maintenance/*functional* strength exercise program.

 

Have you looked into the "leucine threshold" concept?