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mccoy

Caloric or proteic restriction?

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Mechanism, I have no citations, simply I relate what I read/listened to and all researchers always speak of proteins and mTOR in terms of absolute amount. It could not be otherwise, unless mTOR is confounded by the abundance of carbs and fats as not to sense the proteins, but the researchers we know do not speak in these terms. It may even be the opposite, proteins + carbs upregulate mTOR more efficiently since the aminoacids signal is reinforced by the glucose signal. Just musing but that is in the realm of plausibility.

 

Again, as far as I read in his posts, Dean exercises a lot, practices a lot of CE, eats mainly raw vegan in a single meal with fibers galore and such aspects may be crucial in shifting upward the mTOR threshold. Or, more precisely, in weakening IIS signaling and this may cause the upward shift in the mTOR activation threshold. 

 

His minimum protein requirement with his daily regime is probably very high and would be placed in the upper tail of the lognormal, as an extreme value or statistical outlier. This also assumes that an upregulated mTOR cannot coexist with an extremely low BMI. I'm just speculating, since mTOR has a substantial anabolic effect, very lean does not  correlate well with an activated mTOR masterswitch.

 

In your case, if you want to be just absolutely sure not to activate mTOR, you might try and eat less proteic food, leaving unvaried the caloric amount.

 

By looking at the numbers, with a BMI=18.3, you would weigh 56 kilograms. Considering Rosedale's intermediate value, 56*0.7 = 39 g/day (mTOR inactive)

 

However, since nearly all your protein is vegetable, you might  perhaps eat 25% more (Rosedale's answer in Dr. Mercola's blog). That makes 49 grams protein per day.

You may add a max of 10 proteins because of physical activity and that makes 59 grams protein per day.

 

Since you eat 100 grams per day, according to Dr Rosedale you'd be into the red zone, the upregulated mTOR zone. Or pretty much liable to be there.

 

Again, you want to be sure, you may want to eat no more than 60 grams of proteins per day. And see if that causes a loss of muscle mass. If so, you have a proof that you are located in the upper tail of the statistical distribution of minimum protein requirement, and from that value you can move upward until you have no more loss.

 

By the intrinsic nature of such metabolic sensor, if you loose muscle mass mTOR is in deep slumber.

 

If you gain muscle mass, mTOR is definitely awake in muscle tissues, but may be awake in other tissues or not.

Edited by mccoy

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I maintain that Dr. Rosedale did not make a very good case in that lecture taken in isolation ( I have not read his formal work ) as why fatty acids must be the primary dietary intake as % of macronutrient to minimize mTOR activation ( yes, fats are neutral and carbs activate mTOR more but earlier in this thread I outline what I perceive to be weaknesses in the limited case he made for this). The contrary diet of mostly carbs in the Blue Zones also speaks for itself and in my mind for this situation empirical data overall trumps other forms of evidence presently available known to me.

 

 

My very simple interpretation of Rosedale's logic is the following:

 

1-Carbohydrates: must be restricted

2-Proteins: must be restricted

3-Fats: it's the only macronutrient left which must not be restricted.

 

Hence, fats make up by exclusion the dominant part of the energy substrate. They are the only neutral nutrient left, whose presence does not triggers some unfavourable metabolic sensor (expect when eaten together with simple carbs). One important fat sensor is leptin, but its presence has just the effect to cause satiety and avoid dietary overindulgence.

 

I do not agree with all that Dr. Rosedale says. In particular, I eat liberal amounts of fruit, now with skin (this is one of the changes in my eating habits after having gathered suggestions in this forum).

 

Conceptually speaking, his logic is flawless thogh.

Practically speaking, I tried his approach but lost weight almost precipitously, starting from a not high BMI=23. My blood insulin went down and apparently Dr Fung is right, Insulin governs body weight.

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My very simple interpretation of Rosedale's logic is the following:

 

1-Carbohydrates: must be restricted

2-Proteins: must be restricted

3-Fats: it's the only macronutrient left which must not be restricted.

 

Hence, fats make up by exclusion the dominant part of the energy substrate. They are the only neutral nutrient left, whose presence does not triggers some unfavourable metabolic sensor (expect when eaten together with simple carbs). One important fat sensor is leptin, but its presence has just the effect to cause satiety and avoid dietary overindulgence.

That is also the position of Dr Peter ATTIA. He said that everyone agree with him on carbohydrate & protein restriction but they tend to disagree when he concludes that fat has to be the filler for a isocaloric diet. It could be a ketogenic diet or not but has recognized that some persons does not do well, no matter what, on such diet. (from a blood analysis: hormones, lipid profile, crp...all go in the wrong direction if I quote him) but a less restricted but not ketogenic diet is better for them.

It is higly individual at the end.

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With such a high concentration of centenarians in the Blue Zones which includes Okinawa where 85% of calories are from carbohydrates, a higher % of ( low-GI whole food) carbohydrates does not appear to be a problem, at least in the setting of a lower calorie overall diet.

 

Dean and I, in contrast with the Okinawa diet, have high rather than low total calorie intake ( notwithstanding our low BMIs), and therefore have high total protein daily.  Therefore whether health benefits would extend to us in the same way as in Okinawa is less clear.  

 

It is in this area that I am curious whether I can find additional research / data / evidence since Drs. Attia and Rosedale have not studied a population resembling Dean and I in this manner.

 

 

 

So why don't you follow Valter Longo's recent guidelines, built upon the dietary regimes of centenarians in the blue zones? Aside from the thrice a week fish servings (which may even be ignored), that's a vegan diet based upon vegetables, cereals nuts and legumes. He gives no restriction on calories, but gives a restriction on proteins: 0.8 g/kg/day. He too relates to proteins in absolute, rather than relative terms. I translated an excerpt from his recent book in the other thread: Longo interviewed by Rhonda. 

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Optimal BMI in early 40s is probably in the 16 - 18.5 range ( I have always been in this range on my ad libitum high calorie diet my entire life, and am still in this range, following my concerted effort and successful intervention to gain weight).  Indeed, persuasive arguments can be made that it is a lot closer to 18.5 than to the opposite end of the underweight end of the spectrum which was one of several motivations I had for the weight gain - others including but not limited to reduce post-prandial glucose excursions which was successful.  

 

 

 

What is the source of that value? As a newcomer to this forum I personally find it too low, although I've noticed that here low values are appreciated. That is personal liking, unrelated to any objective literature. But in this same forum I also read about the advantages of having a minimum muscle mass and fat reserves. My own BMI right now, 22.3, seems too low to me. I favour higher BMI's, where bodyfat is in the range of 10%-15% and muscle mass prevails. My target right now is a muscular 23.2 but I wouldn't mind a 24. My max when bodybuilding was 25. My minimum was 17 but people then would ask me if I started using drugs.

Edited by mccoy

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...The contrary diet of mostly carbs in the Blue Zones also speaks for itself and in my mind for this situation empirical data overall trumps other forms of evidence presently available known to me.

 

Actually, I find no logical pattern for different obstensibly healthy diets and centenarians diets. I know about the mediterranean blue zone (Sardinia and Greece), where diets are pretty close to the ancestral diet of the area where I live (coastal mediterranean region).

 

It's the poor diet of a predominant population of farmers. Mainly legumes, cereals, lots of fruit when there is a crop, no fruit when there is not. Lots of vegetables everytime. Little or very little meat (the food of noble people) usually only on holidays. Cheese and dairy products, eggs. Sometimes fish, close to the coast. Olive oil, nuts. Pigs are killed in december and their meat is usually preserved in sausages, salami, hams and eaten during the harshest parts of winter from January to march.  I would have difficulties in breaking up such a diet in relative percentages of macros. Probably 60% carbs, 20 to 30% fats, 10 to 20% proteins or less. The poorest farmers might have eaten more carbs and less animal proteins and fats. Legumes have always been a staple of these people.

Edited by mccoy

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All of our discussion may be moot of course if despite our understanding of the basic mTOR mechanisms, that "The effect of dietary restriction on lifespan in rodents is explained by calories alone" and if this also extends to humans as well.  

 

 

I read that series of publications in some detail. However, if we count all the articles on PR and mices, probably most of them would prove that PR prolongs life. If there is some reason why this recent articles showed the contrary, I did not discern, that's the arena of specialistic nutrition research.

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... The contrary diet of mostly carbs in the Blue Zones also speaks for itself and in my mind for this situation empirical data overall trumps other forms of evidence presently available known to me.

 

Again, there are so many different example of diets which are apparently one the opposite of another and succeed in pursuing the goal of weight loss, diabetes reversal and more.

I do not know why. Denise Minger in her more recent post contends that the extremes (low cars+hi fats and hi carbs and low fats) have healthful outcomes, but she does not advance an explanatory hypothesis. People revert diabetes and loose weight with a low carb diet, but they also do that by hi carb vegan diets or by the Ornish or esselstyn low fat hi carbs diet. I have no explanation which comes to my mind. I understand the Insulin model which is at the base of the low carbers diet, because it is logical. I do not understand other models, maybe the simple and banal energetic balance is valid in many people.

 

One common denominator of all such healthy and longevity pursuing diets is moderate proteins. Even the paleo dieters are supporting Rosedale's ideas about moderating proteins (see the Primal life book by Nora Gedgaudas). This speaks volumes about the importance of such an issue (low proteins). That is presently the intersection of many sets representing different ideal diets. 

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How important do y'all think staying in ketosis for longer and longer periods of time may be for longevity (and avoiding Alzheimer's, diabetes 2, certain forms of cancer, CVD?) For healthy lifespan extension, should we be running our bodies on more of a fat based diet rather than complex carb diet?

 

I've been reading and listening to lots of omnivore talk lately, and find some of Dominic D’Agostino's ketogenic diet stuff interesting (http://fourhourworkweek.com/2016/07/06/dom-dagostino-part-2/). And Seyfried https://thequantifiedbody.net/water-fasts-as-a-potential-tactic-to-beat-cancer/

 

Although I'll probably never go the butter, bacon, red meat, eggs route so many in the keto and modified Atkins community suggest, I wonder if staying in ketosis by means other than strict fasting and keto diets are worth the money? Ketone esters, for example? When eating beans, sweet potatoes, quinoa, black rice, barley, and fruit send me out of ketosis, I wonder if this product purports to keep me in ketosis despite eating those whole complex carbs: "KetoCaNa is the original exogenous ketone supplement. KetoCaNa is a great source of ketones, providing 11.7 grams of BHB Salts per serving! Ketones act as the fuel your body uses, and prefers, when you go into a ketogenic state..."

 

And is even "staying in ketosis" for longer time periods even a healthy model to emulate?

 

And if so then what do you make of ingesting MCT powdered oil to help stay in ketosis?

 

Then there's the coconut oil debate... and BCAAs...so difficult to know what's what for longevity extension without personalized AI guidance. I just don't know who and what to trust, there are so many competing camps of scientists and doctors promoting their way or the highway. My aim, like yours, is healthy lifespan extension.

Edited by Sthira

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The attached plot has been included in the NAS study Dietary Reference Intakes for Energy, Carbohydrate, Fiber, Fat, Fatty Acids, Cholesterol, Protein, and Amino Acids (Macronutrients). The source is the same Rand et al., 2003 metanalysis which has been used in the WHO TRS 935 previously described. The database has been apparently trimmed though (by 10 data) and the random variable is in units of grams of proteins /kg/d, which is more immediate practical use.

As specified in the WHO study the weight is an actual weight, corrected when BMI was lower or greater than a common interval (not specified).

 

post-7347-0-97340600-1478352406_thumb.jpg

 

The bulk of the data lies into the interval: [0.4;0.95] g/kg/d

 

The variability is pretty high, leaving it to ourselves to determine which is our individual need. About 5 to 6% of the individuals exhibit a minimum requirement which is larger than 1 g/kg/d. 

 

My bottom line, which I am going to reiterate, is that the RDA of 0.8 g/kg/d may be  twice the minimum requirement of 8% of the population. That is to say, it would be the double of the minimum requirement of about 10% of the population, and that could hardly not to activate mTOR.

 

Is it plausible that a 0.8 g/kg/d is adopted as proteic restriction? Not scientifically speaking. Even though 'Protein restriction' (PR) is not to be taken literally. If  we reason in a rigorous way though and imply PR as 'zero nitrogen point' or a little more, the 0.8 value would mean PR only for about 25% of the population. Maybe for 50% of the population if we have a 20% tolerance.

Edited by mccoy

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From the above it descends that it is imperative that we estimate our own nitrogen balance point, the minimum requirement point which would equate protein restriction.

 

This is what the empirical procedure I followed, since I have now a whole 1-month cronometer log.

I've been weighting myself every morning, taking muscles sizes at interval. I've increased 1 kg of weight, with a littel increase in bodyfat % and the same muscle mass or possibly a little higher. Within the error interval, I can say, with my present regime, moderate exercise, I did not loose muscle mass, I did not gain it. My average protein intake has been exactly 1 g/kg/d.

 

Right now I can only affirm that I'm at or above my minimum requirement. Since I did not increase muscle mass although making moderate weightlifting, I might also say that I'm not in positive balance, although the loads are really moderate so they might not have granted much MPS.

 

My present conclusion is that, considering my present diet and the moderate exercise, I might have a minimum protein requirement ranging from 0.6 to 1 g/kg/d proteins, more likely 0.8 g/kg/d or even 1 g/kg/d, although that would be in the higher percentiles.

 

I might experiment decreasing the protein intake and checking my muscle mass. 

Edited by mccoy

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