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mccoy

Cronometer results for the FMD

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As hepatic glycogen depletes muscle becomes very insulin resistant to spare glucose for the brain.  It typically takes about 3 days after glycogen repletion before insulin sensitivity is restored.  Typically insulin sensitivity will be better than it was prior, probably due to a reduction in hepatic and intramuscular lipids.

 

Thanks Todd for the explanation, it sounds reasonable

 

 

Have you checked your blood sugar recently?  It ought to be better now.

 

My varied fasting practices along with staying lightly in ketosis when not fasting has brought my blood sugar down from roughly 120 mg/dl 2 years ago to now typically being 65-75 mg/dl, which is my target range.  The amount of carbohydrate I can consume and stay in that range is increasing slowly suggesting continuing improvement of insulin sensitivity, probably in adipose but maybe muscle too.  And this has happened while increasingly shifting to a diet heavy in things believed by many to be metabolically risky such as eating a lot of fat including saturated fat, red meat and pork, eggs - currently 2 dozen+ weekly, high salt and heavy niacin use.  Every other tracked biomarker of health has improved except for LDL cholesterol which was previously mildly above the reference range but has since increased by 50%.  That prompted a better particle count test which came back solidly pattern A and an evaluation of being categorized lowest risk.  High LDL is considered a clinical feature of my neuromuscular disease although as far as I know there has been no investigation of it.  Curiously in some other neurological and neuromuscular diseases high cholesterol correlates with better outcomes.

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Mccoy,  I was wondering how you integrated your FMD episodes into your bodybuilding program.  Did  you periodize it in a certain way, or take any special steps to lessen the loss of muscle mass?  

 

Also, do you think fasting in any way helped your injury rehabilitation?

 

Sibiriak, I just give the FMD a priority, so as soon as the weather got warmer I started it and stopped training. I lost 3 kg but I already regained 2.5. Not very hungry though after the FMD.

 

Cannot say if there is some change in the nagging aches since I'm handling only light weights now. I think I have just to strengthen all the abdominal and core muscles, which after 25 years of practical inactivity got very relaxed and failed to constrain adequately the ribcage, maybe putting too much of a stress on some parts of it.

 

The FMD may help since some regeneration takes place, but it is important that I have no hurry and that keep with the light weights of phase 1 GVT.

 

Also, since my bodyweight did not change much, I believe there was some muscle protein synthesis to the expense of fat tissue nested into the muscles.

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Have you checked your blood sugar recently?  It ought to be better now.

 

Todd, as a matter of fact I've read the 'personalized diet' book by Elinav and Segal and am following their suggestion to systematically check the blood sugar to make out those foods or meals which cause anomalous peaks. I just started and it's very interesting, in that some foods like cacao and honey and one pound of oranges do not seem to cause substantial peaks, whereas I remember a concoction of blended oats and soy milk, sweetened with raisins did cause a while ago a 150 mg/dL peak. It takes a while though since I have only the usual 10 fingers and can prick them only so much. I'm probably going to open a thread on that.

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Thanks McCoy for the details.

 

You are welcome sibiriak, and I can tell you now  since I tried phase 2 of GVT with heavier weights that things have improved but I still suffer those nagging pains. So the FMD does not work miracles in tissues regeneration. Also, I tried just about any dietary intervention possible, like assuming K2, D3 and calcium, checking everything is right in cronometer and so on. But recently I discovered Keith Baar research on stimulating mTOR/protein synthesis in connective tissue, it's sure worth a try although it entails taking animal gelatin supplements for 3 days.

Edited by mccoy

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Mccoy: I developed a strategy which is working for me, and entails the ingestion of 2 to 3 pounds of non starchy vegetables (including carrots), raw and cooked, 1-2 tbsps of EVOO, an ounce of nuts, maybe a tbsp of cacao powder and decaffeinated coffee.  [...]  This time I had very little hunger and cravings, but I was unusually sleepy.

 

Striving to eliminate hunger may not be the best FMD strategy.

 

Fasting: Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3946160/

 

 

In mammals, severe CR/food deprivation results in a decrease in the size of most organs except the brain, and the testicles in male mice (Weindruch and Sohal, 1997). From an evolutionary perspective this implies that maintenance of a high level of cognitive function under conditions of food scarcity is of preeminent importance. Indeed, a highly conserved behavioral trait of all mammals is to be active when hungry and sedentary when satiated.

 

Hunger is an adaptive response to food deprivation that involves sensory, cognitive and neuroendocrine changes which motivate and enable food seeking behaviors. It has been proposed that hunger-related neuronal networks, neuropeptides and hormones play pivotal roles in the beneficial effects of energy restriction on aging and disease susceptibility.

 

As evidence, when mice in which the hypothalamic ‘hunger peptide’ NPY is selectively ablated are maintained on a CR diet, the ability of CR to suppress tumor growth is abolished (Shi et al., 2012). The latter study further showed that the ability of CR to elevate circulating adiponectin levels was also compromised in NPY-deficient mice, suggesting a key role for the central hunger response in peripheral endocrine adaptations to energy restriction. Adiponectin levels increase dramatically in response to fasting; and data suggest roles for adiponectin in the beneficial effects of IF on the cardiovascular system (Wan et al., 2010).

 

The hunger response may also improve immune function during aging as ghrelin-deficient mice exhibit accelerated thymic involution during aging, and treatment of middle age mice with ghrelin increases thymocyte numbers and improves the functional diversity of peripheral T cell subsets (Peng et al., 2012).

 

In addition to its actions on the hypothalamus and peripheral endocrine cells, fasting may increase neuronal network activity in brain regions involved in cognition, resulting in the production of BDNF, enhanced synaptic plasticity and improved stress tolerance (Rothman et al., 2012).

 

Thus, hunger may be a critical factor involved in widespread central and peripheral adaptive responses to the challenge of food deprivation for extended time periods.

 

Edited by Sibiriak

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Sibiriak, I'm aware about the obstensible beneficial effects of hunger, but Longo himself states that hunger usually peters out after the second day, due to the onset of a ketogenic environment.

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Okay, Mccoy.    I just got the impression that you were trying specifically to bring hunger to an absolute minimum by including lots of fiber etc.   I was also reacting to your statement that you were unusually sleepy.

 

I haven't tried a fast mimicking diet yet, but I've done quite a few real fasts and one of the normal features most people experience and appreciate is a heightened state of  mental clarity and alertness.

 

(Also in my exploration of fasting years ago,  the idea of giving the digestive system a rest was often mentioned, something that might  contradicted by high fiber meals.)

Edited by Sibiriak

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Sibiriak, yes you're right in that in some other threads I mentioned the possibility to use guar guam or psyllium to provide bulk without calories and stave off hunger during the FMD.

 

It might not be necessary, since so far the natural fiber present in vegetables was enough to me. The Prolon package has not a great bulk but we know that shelf life governs that concept of a ready 5-days package. The fresh foods approach to FMD is different and probably better.

 

I have no final answer whether it's best to cultivate hunger or not. In the past hunger did not help me to achieve mental clarity. Also it came in episodes, was not a constant. Last but not least, it may constitute another deterrent to start a fast or a mimicked fast.

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As I've stated elsewhere, I've always done fasts with only a small amount of diluted low-sugar vegetable juice  (utilizing enemas after several days).  Certainly, after two days hunger subsided and it was not so difficult to carry on from that point.  Still, there was perhaps always a lingering sense of latent hunger.

 

I wonder though, if  continual eating in a mimicked fast, even in much reduced amounts,  actually works to repeatedly stimulate appetite and keep the hunger/desire to eat going longer than it otherwise would.

 

Fasting for me has always had a psycho-spiritual element based on the total cessation of eating solid food, and all the activity and mental preoccupation that goes with preparing and eating meals.

 

Of course, I do fully understand the "deterrence"  factor. And for Longo's medical applications, compliance is a serious concern. 

 

Also, now that I am a bit older,  I have become more concerned about the potential loss of muscle mass.

Edited by Sibiriak

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Sibiriak, i understand your perspective on fasting. Mine was similar, I started to experimento with 1 to 3 days fasts at age 14, studying some advocates of long fasts like Herbert Shelton. I'm speaking about water-only.

I read about the points that hunger subsides after a while, that the body enjoys full vigor and renewed enregies and so on and so forth. Fact is that, only once in my lifetime I experienced a rise in energy during a fast. All other times, it was pretty miserable. Also, I had great difficulties in controlling food ingestion after fasting and lapsed into destructive cycles of fasts and binges.

 

Of course it is personal for everyone, but my experience was overall negative, health-wise (there is of course the discipline and stoic aspect which is great). The only longish water-only fast I was able to carry out was 5 full days, in which I lost 5 kg and at the end of which I was totally disabled, mentally and phisically. Call me a wimp but that was it. 

 

So, Longo's FMD strikes a resonant frequency with me. I did 6 cycles of it, whereas I totally quit traditional fast, but for a day in a year, the traditional Holy Friday in the Christian religion, a fast which I've been doing for 40 years now.

 

Bottom line: I believe it's different for everyone. Those who can reap the benefits of a full fast have an edge, although we sure can overdo it. Those who can't, have a very valid option with the FMD.

Edited by mccoy

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Mccoy, that all makes perfect sense.  We have to respect our individuality.  Right now I want to start a fast,  and I'm trying to decide what route to go--to concoct my own version of a FMD based on Longo's basic parameters, or to go with what I've done in the past. 

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My 7th FMD cycle. I usually start when the body suggests me to, by various hints (lesser hunger, digestion less efficient...)

 

This time I changed something, making the FMD closer to the nutrients included in the patented Prolon package. I took multiminerals and multivitamins in a quantity similar to the supplements included in the package. Plus I took 5 grams of liquid glycerol which , unexpectedly, tastes very sweet. Mixing it with cacao powder makes an exquisite drink, containing those fabled phantom carbon compounds discussed in another thread.

My target this time is to loose as little muscle weight as possible, and I'm going to try to do one or two workouts, to that purpose.

 

1st day I enjoyed some real hunger in the afternoon, especially so when helping my wife shop at the supermarket. half a cup of cacao powder was then enough to make it subside.

 

This is the cronometer report, I ended up pretty close to the energy and ratios described in the cell metabolism article on FMD: P/F/C=10%/56%34%

 

Right now, 9 PM, I feel pretty full and satisfied. The 1st day is an easy day. I included a slice of pumpernickel bread to hit the carbs target, I wouldn't have made it by carrots alone.

 

 

post-7347-0-16451000-1529088798_thumb.jpg

Edited by mccoy

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Day # 2 of FMD, these are very easy to prepare meals, so I'm probably going to make it a standard, sort of a ntural Prolon package. The energy and macros are very close to the numbers published in 'Cell metabolism'. 725 kcal (9% protein, 44% fat, 47%carbohydrate).

I was surprised that psyllium powder husk has a caloric load. I'm going to try and replicate this in day #3

 

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FMD day #4, I ran out of carrots in the morning so I ate red bell pepper plus steamed green cabbage. A little nauseating to me without EVOO. 

 

Hunger only when shopping. Some spells of tiredness. A nap was necessary in the afternoon. One resistance workout made the day before. Overall energy levels definitely lower than when not practicing the FMD.

 

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FMD day #5, yesterday's cronometer sheet.

This morning, day #6 refeeding day,  I had 2.5 kg less than at the beginning and about 15 mg/dL fasting blood glucose less than usual. Also, I was not hungry in the least and not very tired.

These are probably signs that the ketogenic state was well estabilished. Had I been overweight I would have gone on for a few more days.

 

The FMD would be a powerful tool for those to wish to start a ketogenic diet. 5 days and you are into full keto, then refeed with minimum carbs, you are already there!

 

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I've started another FMD, the last one before the season gets cold, FMD and CE don't combine very well with me now.

This time I varied the FMD design, a simpler one. Previously, it was lots of vegetbles (3 pounds per day), now it's only 0.6 pounds of raw carrots, plus 0.6 pounds of supermarket vegetable soup (creamed) to be warmed in the microwave oven.

The rest is mostly a small sandwich with tahin  and walnuts.  Definitely easier to eat on the go, whereas the veggies cream is eaten as dinner at home

I've lost 2 kg in the first 2 days, which is more than the previous FMDs. I'm significantly less hungry than during the previous FMDs. I'm not taking any supplements this time, but glycerol, a carbon phantom compound which is supposed to minimize muscle mass loss.

image.png.4fe0aea6e7b108d5f631cbc6dfa10026.png

 

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The only measurments I took during the recent FMD was bodyweight.

Although I'm trying to recoup the lost weight, I find it difficult, after the powerful systemic catabolic signal triggered by the FMD. Lost 3.5 kg, recouped just 2, eating ad libitum.

The new FMD regimen was good. One day I had the sh1ts, due to glycerol (probably too high a dosage).

image.png.cf3593c6e29c86de5670b618e5a30768.png

 

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