Cronometer results for the FMD

[Mechanism]

Edited

Edited July 20, 2020 by Mechanism

[mccoy]

Thanks mechanism, fortunately that's usually pretty mild and confined to the 2nd half of the FMD. During the night it may be bothersome, in the day only if I run.

[mccoy]

FMD#10, day #5

The following set of foods works well, so I used it with little variation for the whole FMD.

[mccoy]

Interestingly enough, this time my bodyweight after the loss rebounded rapidly and higher than prior to the FMD. After 4 day from the end, it is higher now at 65.8 kg then at 65.6 before beginning. I'm curious to see the next setpoint.

[mccoy]

With reference to backpain and one of the articles posted by mechanism, back pain is cited as oen of the reported adverse effects of water only fast, together with some othe forms of pains. It remains the question related to why Longo cited specifically back pain. Some other symptoms like fatigue, insomnia, nausea headache are more frequent but there might be a difference between FMD and water-only.

 

[Ron Put]

mccoy, I hope your back pain is already forgotten.

While looking at your Cronometer data, I was reminded of something which has been puzzling me for a while: the wildly varying protein "requirements" Cronometer lists.

In your post from Friday, your Cronometer chart shows total protein daily requirement of 56g. You are about the same overall weight as me - I am usually 64-67kg. You can see my Withings Body Cardio measurement here:

You are much more muscular than me, but I do some yoga and cardio virtually every day and have defined muscles (lean, but still pretty defined) 🙂 I am also 186.5cm.

But the fact is, you probably work out more than I do.

Now, look at what Cronometer has as my daily protein requirement: 156g!

This is 100g more than you!



 

I am virtually never able to keep my protein intake to the suggested minimum of 0.8g per 1kg of body weight, usually ending up with about 1.12g per kg. I am practically vegan (eat cheese or eggs very occasionally), so I don't know how people manage 0.8g or 1g per kg.

Anyway, does anyone have any rationale for the large discrepancy in protein requirements suggested by Cronometer?

 

Edited July 31, 2019 by Ron Put

[mccoy]

Ron, which are your settings in 'protein'? By default it's the RDA, yours looks to be a custom value. If you input your bodyweight and bodyfat in to the diary then choose the default mode, then cronometer should calculate 0.8* lean mass. 56 grams in my case is the minimum value set by cronometer, maybe based on the bodyweight target I chose. I'll have to figure it out but your numbers are totally unreasonable, have you tried to check the specific settings by clicking the protein bar?

[mccoy]

1 hour ago, Ron Put said:

I am virtually never able to keep my protein intake to the suggested minimum of 0.8g per 1kg of body weight, usually ending up with about 1.12g per kg. I am practically vegan (eat cheese or eggs very occasionally), so I don't know how people manage 0.8g or 1g per kg.

That's a legitimte doubt since with only 750 kCals during the FMD I used to hit almost 50% RDA, being careful not to eat protein-rich plant foods like spinach or broccoli.

But then there is the issue about protein in plant matrix, the Jones factor and so on. Many plant-based protein like those in green leaves and mushrooms appear to have a low Jones factor, conversion from nitrogen to protein, so you should need more in theory.

[Ron Put]

3 hours ago, mccoy said:

Ron, which are your settings in 'protein'? By default it's the RDA, yours looks to be a custom value. If you input your bodyweight and bodyfat in to the diary then choose the default mode, then cronometer should calculate 0.8* lean mass. 56 grams in my case is the minimum value set by cronometer, maybe based on the bodyweight target I chose. I'll have to figure it out but your numbers are totally unreasonable, have you tried to check the specific settings by clicking the protein bar?

Hah, I just looked and it was the settings! I don't recall changing any of the default settings, mine were set at "Macro Ratios" (P-25%; C-40%and F-35%) and I would guess that my high intake of carbohydrates was bumping Protein requirements up, trying to keep up with the allotted 25%.

I changed it "Fixed Values" and it set P to 56g.

Thanks!

[Mechanism]

Edited

Edited July 20, 2020 by Mechanism

[mccoy]

Another potential problem causing condition cited by Longo is an inefficient hepatic gluconeogenesis, due to genetic polymorphisms. It may cause hypoglicemia and fainting, maybe it was the cause of frequent finting in a 5-days water fast reported by a user in this board. The frequency of occurrance is not cited though.

Edited August 10, 2019 by mccoy

[mccoy]

This is the calories-bodyweight after last FMD. Some of the gain is adipose tissue of course. The setpoint is not clear yet.

[mccoy]

The setpoint seems to be 68.9 kg  at a BMI of 24 kgm-2

Edited September 21, 2019 by mccoy

[Mark Nederland]

On 11/20/2016 at 8:44 PM, mccoy said:

I'm going to post the cronometer results of the single days, maybe you guys are going to give some useful tips for the next FMD, which I'll make sure to reply at the suggested frequency.

Thank you very much for this Mccoy. It is really helpful. I am starting my first FMD tomorrow. I am reading the book but your posts really help. Did you restrict eating to a specific timeframe during the FMD?

[mccoy]

5 hours ago, Mark Nederland said:

Thank you very much for this Mccoy. It is really helpful. I am starting my first FMD tomorrow. I am reading the book but your posts really help. Did you restrict eating to a specific timeframe during the FMD?

Mark, I usually distributed the amounts in three different meals. 

[Mark Nederland]

On 9/25/2019 at 12:04 AM, mccoy said:

Mark, I usually distributed the amounts in three different meals. 

Thank you! I am sorry to disturb you again but I am currently doing a FMD but I cannot find any answers to the following questions. Can you help me out again?

1) I have the book from Longo but I am not a native English speaker and there is not so much clear information about how to do the diet (I do not have the prolon). Your posts are very helpfull. My question is: when I am following the guideline in the book (day 2-5) 400 cal from vegetables and 400 from nuts/oil do I still need to look at the amounts of proteins and carbohydrates? If so how? What are the maximum amounts of each if so? Any information is welcome, I cannot find this information.

2) Is there more information about the diet somewhere? I read about the FMD patent?

3) can we add (a little bit of) salt?

THANK YOU!

[Sibiriak]

Mark,  there are some links to info about Longo's Prolon FMD in this thread:

https://www.crsociety.org/topic/16805-valter-longo-on-the-rich-roll-podcast-live-to-100/?tab=comments#comment-29081

 

[mccoy]

Mark, I checked Sibiriak's link but it seems to focus more on the longevity diet than on the FMD.

Days 2 to 5, you need to design the ratios of protein, fat, carbs like 10/45/45 in percentages. Total calories from 700 to 800. 

If you use the cronometer app, it's simple, otherwise it may be pretty hard to hit those targets. You can find some examples of FMD designs in many posts above.

I repeat, total daily calories should be 750 for example, of those calories 45% of it should be carbs, 45% of it fats and 10% of it protein. 

Day one, you simply add 300 more calories in fats (olive oil reccomended), with the same amount of protein and fats as in other days.

The following table shows the amounts of macronutrients in calories and grams for a 750 kcals FMD

 

 

Edited September 30, 2019 by mccoy

[Sibiriak]

Quote

I checked Sibiriak's link but it seems to focus more on the longevity diet than on the FMD.

 

No, it goes straight to links to sites which discuss Longo's Prolon FMD-- ingredients, product labels,  macronutrient ratios etc.
https://www.crsociety.org/topic/16805-valter-longo-on-the-rich-roll-podcast-live-to-100/?tab=comments#comment-29081

Quote

 

This site has pics of Prolon "Nutrition Facts" labels:
 

https://fastlifehacks.com/prolon-fast-mimicking-diet-box-contents-calories-macros/

 

Other sites provide unofficial descriptions, e.g.:

https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-exact-ingredients-of-L-Nutras-ProLon-diet

https://www.dietspotlight.com/prolon-review/

 

 

Edited October 1, 2019 by Sibiriak

[Mark Nederland]

On 9/26/2019 at 8:30 PM, Sibiriak said:

Mark,  there are some links to info about Longo's Prolon FMD in this thread:

Sibiriak thank you! I did find the information I neede but. I was surprised to see how little information Longo gives in his book about the FMD. I do not have the money for Prolon and now I have to find all this information myself. Longo is my hero and I understand he does not make any money from Prolon but is it not a bit harsh to keep this information away for the poor people like me? Or is there something I do not understand? I still could use a bit more information and also based on your link I reduced my intake from 800 to 725 cal and looked better at the ratio (see below), but I do not like that this rule is derived from the Prolon instead of it being a clear rule from the book for example. It feels a bit like a bad SF movie where only the rich get the health care to immortality :). Or is there something I am missing here?

19 hours ago, mccoy said:

I repeat, total daily calories should be 750 for example, of those calories 45% of it should be carbs, 45% of it fats and 10% of it protein. 

Thank you Mccoy! As always you are a big help. I was able to do the FMD and by using the table in Long's book I came to around the same scores and also used some of the excell files from Sibiriak's link. I understand now that it is very hard to get the ratio right without Cronometer 🙂  Basically I found that i could only take 725 cal instead of the 800 in Long's book. I can only see the ratio in the phone app from Cronometer not in the Browser.

I did the FMD and it was great although sometime difficult and I was sometimes a bit grumpy. On day 6 i was very happy when I started eating again, like stoned happy. I went from 68.5 to 64.2 this morning (day 7) which is a bit much but I ate only 1700 cal on day 6. I will start my next FMD just before or just after Christmas.

I do still have some questions:  would (1 of) you have a look at 1 of my days from the Cronometer. I would really appreciate.  My ratios where Protein 10 %, Carbs 39%, Fats 51%. I do not like Olive oil. Would that be a problem I replaced it with nuts? 

 

Edited October 1, 2019 by Mark Nederland

[Dean Pomerleau]

4 hours ago, Mark Nederland said:

 (1 of) you have a look at 1 of my days from the Cronometer. I would really appreciate. 

I would very seriously consider reducing or better yet, eliminating the Brazil nuts, per this post by Michael. I former ate 1/2 of a Brazil nut per day (~2.5g) and considered that too high a risk of overdoing it due to the very wide range of selenium content in Brazil nuts. From this recent review [1] :

Brazil nut consumption could pose some risk if the
daily Se intake from this source is much higher than
the recommended amount. According to research,
intake of *330mg of Se per day could be toxic not
only for growth hormones and insulin-like growth
factor 1 metabolism but also in the synthesis of thyroid
hormones.18,19 Possible major side-effects include
nail and hair loss, anorexia, diarrhea, depression,
hemorrhage, liver and kidney necrosis, blindness, ataxia,
and respiratory disturbances.18 There have also been
instances of dermatitis and central nervous system
disorders in an area with high Se content in Enshi,
China.24 These signs and symptoms of Se toxicity are
known as selenosis. An Se intake of 50–400mg/d is
considered a safe range for adults, while 850–900mg
could be allowed as minimum for Se toxicity.10 Evidently,
the high Se content variation in Brazil nuts that
depends on the soil of the nut tree origins increases the
likelihood of Se toxicity, regardless of the quantity of
nuts consumed.

--Dean

------------

[1] J Altern Complement Med. 2018 Jan;24(1):3-6. doi: 10.1089/acm.2017.0159. Epub

2017 Aug 14.

Commentary: Health Concerns of Brazil Nut Consumption.

Mazokopakis EE(1), Liontiris MI(1).

Author information: 
(1)Department of Internal Medicine, Naval Hospital of Crete , Chania, Greece .

Brazil nuts are the fruit of the enormous tropical tree Bertholletia excelsa that
are produced in and exported from the territory of the Amazon. As a natural rich 
source of selenium (Se), the consumption of Brazil nuts is often suggested as
therapeutic among patients with autoimmune thyroid diseases. In this review, the 
current knowledge regarding the main health concerns of Brazil nut consumption,
such as Se toxicity, Se-induced type 2 diabetes mellitus, weight gain,
radioactivity, aflatoxins, and allergic reactions, is presented and discussed.

DOI: 10.1089/acm.2017.0159 
PMID: 28805450  [Indexed for MEDLINE]
 

[Mark Nederland]

16 hours ago, Dean Pomerleau said:

I would very seriously consider reducing or better yet, eliminating the Brazil nuts.
 

Thank you Dean I will finish the bag I have with care and then eliminate them: thank you very much! See below for the Cronometer minerals section for the same day I posted 🙂

Edited October 2, 2019 by Mark Nederland

[mccoy]

Re: brazil nuts, the issue with them, as Dean underlines, is not the very high content in Selenium, rather the very high variability in the content of Selenium itself, which implies that we really do not know how much Se we are ingesting from them, little (compared to the reccomended intake), enough, too much.

Cronometer displays an average value, if multiple sources are available.

This issue has already been discussed. What I do is I purchase only brands which display the chemical composition, assuming that the Se concentration described in the label is accurate, and that's not necessarily true.

The call of the honeyguide site comments a specific article, with the following eloquent plot. The values are in micrograms per single brazil nut.

 

 

 

 

[Clinton]

I am personally supplementing with 100micrograms of selenium ( NOW brand).  Without it I am under RDA levels - anyone else supplementing as well?

Clinton

[Dean Pomerleau]

I take same 100mcg selenium tablets from NOW but only once every 4 days to supplement ~40% of the RDA per day, relying on small amounts from other foods to fill in the rest. 

--Dean