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mccoy

Mimicking fast-mimicking diet?

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Mechanism, I was looking for info on the content of the prolon package. The potential (probable) patent litigation occurred to me as well

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Mechanism, do you mean the Prolon package? if so, your opinions on the contents and other details are very much welcome.

Green powders in Longo's diet? Never heard about it.

 

The study on the 5:2 diet seems to me, to say the least, nutritionally egregious:

 

 

 

ow let’s just talk about what they actually ate for a second here, because it’s amazing. According to the press release, on their fasting days, they ate just one meal, but it was a doozy - roast beef, gravy, and mashed potatoes, followed by Oreo cookies and orange sherbet. If that sounds like a feasting day to you, well, check this out - on the feasting days they ate bagels with cream cheese, oatmeal sweetened with honey and raisins, turkey sandwiches, apple sauce, spaghetti with chicken, yogurt, and soft drinks. Oh and they also got lemon pound cake, Snickers bars and vanilla ice cream. WHERE DO I SIGN UP...

 

Besides the weirdness of the approach (I feel nauseous just reading the above), they provided vitamins C and E as supplements. We are not talking natural antioxidants.

I do not comment the alleged upregulation of sirtuins. The above approach is unrealistic because bespeaks of a wanton dietary abuse which none of us would ever think about while in a state of mental sanity. 

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Re: the bioessays article, interesting theoretical considerations on CR and on the ostensible benefits of upregulated autophagy and apoptosis signals. Sensible objection to the lab-real life situation.

Are we human beings living in a lab or in the wild? Probably in an intermediate environment, not so harsh nor so tame. Whereas ancestrally we definitely lived in an harsh environment, where the benefits of CR were not relevant, due to the hi environmental hazard.

Also interesting the alternative hypothesis that CR is useful to provide nutrients for immediate reproductive activity, by the boosted recycling of nutrients.

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Mechanism, my belief is that, after having examined and pondered (and discussed) the reliable material which is available, everyone should do as his/her own instinct suggests.

 

Providing the istinct is not influenced by anomalous cravings or addictions, it should reflect the 'metabolic intelligence' of the body, which is pretty much unique for every person.

This may sound unscientific, but if nutrition is a science, considering the wildly differing conclusions on the same subject, that means it's in a very elementary stage yet.

 

In my case, having lived in tune with my body for decades, I felt at once that Longo's FMD would have been good for me. Tomorrow I'll be over with the second FMD and must say the results in my own case are (for what I can judge) totally satisfactory. In your case, you may be attracted to another scheme which is better suited to your own specific metabolic requirements.

 

Bottom line, I'm convinced that, after all these discussions, whatever you decide is going to be good.

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I'm happy it's working well for you, too, McCoy. Fasting feels right to me, too. But the FMD is trickier because it kicks my appetite into motion and then I'm hungry again, and after each tiny meal it feels like I'm starting the fast all over again.

 

FMD is just severe, short term CR, ain't it? While it may have benefits FMD appears to my eye as a behavior for those who cannot or will not fast or engage in CR due to safety, discomfort, the social and psychological costs, and of course becoming alarmingly thin.

 

So I'm curious when you write that the results of FMD are satisfactory for you, what does this mean? You're feeling better? You're not losing as much weight? You've a goal to focus upon and strive to achieve? Or, do you mean blood work?

 

I'd like to see Michael's criticism of fasting again, maybe I missed that, do you have an easy link because, well, I'm just too uninspired to search out reasons for stopping something that seems to be benefitting me (fasting), and how's that for bury my head in the sand denial?

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I'm happy it's working well for you, too, McCoy. Fasting feels right to me, too. But the FMD is trickier because it kicks my appetite into motion and then I'm hungry again, and after each tiny meal it feels like I'm starting the fast all over again.

 

It doesn't happen to me. I do not feel hungry, I just have cravings (this time it was hot cocoa with honey).

 

 

 

FMD is just severe, short term CR, ain't it? While it may have benefits FMD appears to my eye as a behavior for those who cannot or will not fast or engage in CR due to safety, discomfort, the social and psychological costs, and of course becoming alarmingly thin.

 

So I'm curious when you write that the results of FMD are satisfactory for you, what does this mean? You're feeling better? You're not losing as much weight? You've a goal to focus upon and strive to achieve? Or, do you mean blood work?

 

Right, I'm not reasoning in terms of objective evidence like bloodwork, rather in terms of a priori beliefs and a posteriori subjective evidence. A priori, my reasoned belief is that fasting is an efficient house cleansing and regenerating practice. Water only fasting is best of all. As far as FMD is concerned, I can subjectively feel some of the benefits of fasting without its consequences: severe weakenss, severe hunger, hard management of refeeding. Also, I loose less weight (half as much as in a regular fast), I can go on with daily activities and work. At the end of it I feel better physically and mentally (I've done my duty toward myself) and of course  the 'goal to achieve' part of it is also has its import. 

 

 

 

I'd like to see Michael's criticism of fasting again, maybe I missed that, do you have an easy link because, well, I'm just too uninspired to search out reasons for stopping something that seems to be benefitting me (fasting), and how's that for bury my head in the sand denial? 

 

Mihael's criticism was well reasoned and mainly related if I remember well to the stressful conditions. On the other side, we know that hormetic stress is often good to the body. Michael denied that the benefits of fasting are inherent to it, rather he contends that fasting is good as long as it causes a caloric restriciont on the long-term average. Main founded criticism of Michael was the lack of significant changes in some biological markers and the not-so-hot survival curves of the rats in Longo's article.

 

The main advantage of FMD in my case is that I would never consider a 5-days water only fast multiple times per year. Whereas I can consider that in the case of the FMD. So, even if the benefits are just a percentage of water-only, it is reasonable to believe that the cumulative benefits will be comparable.

Edited by mccoy

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Hello, prof. Fontana here https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=wOns29hNaWs

 

Offers his point of view about many questions. He does not reccomend FMD at the moment, because the data are mostly on animals and it is needed that independent groups do tests on humans . McCoy maybe you can translate more easily than me ...

Edited by Cloud

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This works. I only understand parts of it. ;/

 

Edited by Matt

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Thanks Matt, that's what he says.

 

Salient points until time 18:00, then he speaks in general about his recent book

·        Topic #1: FMD

o   Experimental data on animals are very interesting but data on humans are too preliminary; it’s necessary to further the research with different independent groups (randomized clinical trials).

o   Until there is not such data as above, Fontana doesn’t feel like recommending the FMD

o   It is well known that fasting triggers some pathways like FOXO which entails a targeted autophagy (against damaged or useless or toxic cells)

o   An activated FOXO activates the genetic expressions of DNA repair, antioxidant pathways, anti-proliferation pathways.

o   We don’t know though if there may be collateral effects in the human being. We don’t know the details: how much to fast, how frequently.

o   It is possible that a 5-7 days fasting period, when following an optimal diet, may have a cleansing effect if done every year or two years but we really don’t know exactly. Fontana is reluctant to advise something which may exhibit collateral effects.

o   Some oncologists have complained because people will tell them to undergo FMD during therapy. This may have legal consequences if the patient dies during chemo or other therapies.

·        Topic #2: longevity superfoods and smart molecules

o   No serious scientific evidence on ‘longevity foods’

o   Only weak data, it is not possible nor honest to advise people

o   Resveratrol: good on mice, no effects on human being, a fiasco. No modifications of genetic expression, nothing at all.

o   Vitamin C, E, Beta-carotene. Good results on animal, no results on human beings, rather some increase in cancer hazard

·        Topic #3: low-carbs, hi-protein diets to loose weight

o   More benefit than a low-fat diet in first 3-4 months

o   On longer periods no more benefits

o   Damage to kidneys and no metabolic improvement (insulin resistance remains)

o   Hi-protein diets are absolutely not advisable

·        Topic #4: Alleged toxicity of some foods (refined flours, dairy products)

o   Such allegations are extreme. To eat occasionally refined flour is not poisonous.

o   A main rule is to eat as much as to keep a flat abdomen

o   Eating sweets occasionally is not disastrous

o   Diversify as possible foods with phytochemicals

Edited by mccoy

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Further on he says more interesting stuff:

 

From time 24:00

·        These days we are examining a study on fasting: vegetables ad libitum, raw and cooked and water 2-3 times a week, ad libitum other days

·        Some people have lost 20 kg in 3 months

·        Others have lost little weight

·        Others have lost weight but had a slight worsening of metabolic profile

·        Cause of above is not known yet

·        Main message: we are not all the same so interventions must be personalized

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