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Sibiriak

Extra-Virgin Olive Oil (EVOO) Sourcing

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One other observation: it looks like the Poly content is lower than when Michael lauded it's content. My understanding is that it is still high...

does anybody here alternate which brand by year or harvest ( and if not, why not?), and if so what is your database and agorithm for making your regular selections. I thought I could stick with a good EVOO like the one above and ride the waves of Poly variation from harvest to harvest as insignificant but perhaps I should question this practice.

 

I believe there cannot be algorithms since the presence of polyphenols in production is governed by many uncertainties (too many random parameters). Although a production which si usually high will probably remain relatively high, but the fluctuations like TomB underlined can be significant.

 

What I would do is wait for the lab analyses and buy the EVOO with the highest polyphenols. If they don't provide lab analyses, then they are out of the list.

 

I agree with McCoy, there is only one way to know - see the chemistry for the particular EVOO. Then buy the one that has the best chemistry. There is no reason to stick to one brand - whatever is the best at the moment. The only other variable, is that the fresher (the closer to the harvest), the better it is. Every harvest is different, every year is different, and there is zero guarantee that a brand that was good last year will be good this year. I've seen this with my own eyes, and I've been buying EVOO with chemistry disclosed from VF for many, many years - it has not happened yet, that a brand that was great one year is equally great the next year, frequently it is very poor. Again - there is only one way: see what has the best chemistry, and buy that. Sticking with a particular brand, I see no point in. 

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All this hoopla for olive oil is based on observational research ultimately if we restrict it to human research. I just spent 170.00 for oil. I hope I am not being suckered into this by olive oil research funded by olive oil companies/special interests. So many of these studies are done in spain/Italy and even if not directly funded by olive oil interests there could be back hand money given to researchers/universities. Afterall they are already guilty of creating fake olive oils and selling them as the real thing.

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Mechanism, first and foremost Michael's opinion, the king of EVOO, I fully agree, governs here. So if he strongly supports the beneficial properties of EVOO, then we can be sure that, as far as present science goes, the benefits are all there.

 

Secondly, there is the famous so called Eurolive study: 

 

The Effect of Polyphenols in Olive Oil on Heart Disease Risk FactorsA Randomized Trial

 

Intervention:

In a crossover study, participants were randomly assigned to 3 sequences of daily administration of 25 mL of 3 olive oils. Olive oils had low (2.7 mg/kg of olive oil), medium (164 mg/kg), or high (366 mg/kg) phenolic content but were otherwise similar. Intervention periods were 3 weeks preceded by 2-week washout periods.

Results:

A linear increase in high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol levels was observed for low-, medium-, and high-polyphenol olive oil: mean change, 0.025 mmol/L (95% CI, 0.003 to 0.05 mmol/L), 0.032 mmol/L (CI, 0.005 to 0.05 mmol/L), and 0.045 mmol/L (CI, 0.02 to 0.06 mmol/L), respectively. Total cholesterol–HDL cholesterol ratio decreased linearly with the phenolic content of the olive oil. Triglyceride levels decreased by an average of 0.05 mmol/L for all olive oils. Oxidative stress markers decreased linearly with increasing phenolic content. Mean changes for oxidized low-density lipoprotein levels were 1.21 U/L (CI, −0.8 to 3.6 U/L), −1.48 U/L (−3.6 to 0.6 U/L), and −3.21 U/L (−5.1 to −0.8 U/L) for the low-, medium-, and high-polyphenol olive oil, respectively.

Limitations:

The olive oil may have interacted with other dietary components, participants' dietary intake was self-reported, and the intervention periods were short.

Conclusions:

Olive oil is more than a monounsaturated fat. Its phenolic content can also provide benefits for plasma lipid levels and oxidative damage.

 

The results of teh same study have been analyzed in another context:

 

The effect of olive oil polyphenols on antibodies against oxidized LDL. A randomized clinical trial

 

where a linear dose response relationship has been ascertained between total polys and OLAB (that means a protective role in ahterosclerosis, if I got it right).

 

Low content EVOO= 3 ppms total polyphenols*

Medium= 164

High= 366

 

The daily dose was 25 mL = 0.92*25= 23 grams EVOO

 

So the daily dosages were respectively:

 

LOW= 0.1 mg

Med= 3.8 mg

High=8.4 mg

 

The results:

post-7347-0-48090500-1502020279_thumb.jpg

 

I believe there are also some indications on a beneficial minimum threshold, in the region of 0.2 mg 

 

Of course, it goes without saying that from these results the more, the better, at least within the range until 8.4 mg = 23 grams (about 2 tablespoons?) EVOO with 366 ppms total PC

 

 

 

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The issue goes on: does the linear dose-response law applies to benefits other than anti-atherosclerotic? I don't know and I hope MR chimes in in regard to that. As a gross approximation, we might use the Eurolive study results as a proxy for some other benefits, not all I suspect, maybe not the hormetic/xenohormetic benefits, which are htreshold dependent, although the quantity to shift from the hormetic effect to the toxic effect might be pretty high and is surely dependent upon the individual.

 

Takeaway lesson to source EVOOs: the 366 ppm benchmark might be used IMO as a good-quality quantity which ensures high protection with about 2 daily tablespoons ingested.

 

So, if we choose the ultra-high PC EVOOS, a 724 ppm PC EVOO ensures the same protection with only one daily tablespoon.

 

That's a double advantage, since the daily amount is halved, the expense is halved, the calories are halved (for those who follow strict CR).

I woudl say it's always beneficial (budget allowing) to buy the ultra-high harvests. Also, since PC decreases with increasing time from harvest, the ultra-high EVOOS will guarantee a high PC even far from teh harvest (if properly stored).

 

Re. Frauds: the best brands are located into a niche market so will never intentionally cheat on the chemicals, lest they loose credibility and sales. Also, providers like Amphora nueva should sample-check some values, I hope they are doing it, a double check doesn't hurt

 

Re. variability: the same brand and harvest, regardless of the provider, should have the same Polyphenols content, within statistical variability (I don't know the analytical error plus the 'industrial sampling' error).

Edited by mccoy

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Australian Picholine

Home > Premium Extra Virgin Olive Oil

 

Harvest Date: May 2017

 

FFA: .1 Poly: 440 Peroxide: 5.4 Oleic: 72.8

 

We are proud to introduce our beautifully robust, Australian Picholine! Notes of green fruit on the front, are followed by a relatively bitter center. Although this oil is robust, it does boast a pleasantly creamy note. Pungency develops seconds later and lingers for quite some time after.

 

Price: $21.00

EVOO

750ml -

 

Mechanism, This is what I ordered yesterday. What do I look for is very simply polys high 300's at least and a recent harvest date. However McCoy makes a great case for even much higher levels. And yesif you can order from prime and save money it

Certainly makes sense if you know the product is being tested by independent labs and meets poly/date criterion

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1) if you find the EVOO via Amphora Nueva , why not get the same product from Amazon? I thought 1 cultivar / season = 1 age more or less, any any differences in harvest time would be overshadowed by the impact of storage conditions after you buy, open the bottle & stock in the kitchen. Amazon prime has been convenient and provides simplicity blocking off with other Amazon purchases. Maybe I should reconsider this?

 

Same brand and same harvest should exhibit same total PC unless they ran more analyses for different batches

 

 

2) what database do you use to assess your EVOO annually ( and what time of year do you check)? Do you have a hyperlink to the web address ( sorry if I missed it in the thread).

 

I buy locally or in the case of Italian EVOO check online or by the producer

 

3) I think this is my only tough question, but maybe it is it so hard: nutrients generally have a dose response that is only linear for a subset ( if any ) of the therapeutic doses. The curve can be curvilinear, U-shaped / J-curve, and often has at least a plateauing of benefits with limited benefit above a certain level. There can also be a threshold effect where positive effects only really start to kick in above that threshold. 

 

 

In the Eurolive study above linked there is a linear dose-response relationship with no plateau and a very low threshold.

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4) what combination / relative priority of phytonutrients do you look at ( the numbers do not mean anything to me at this point as I have not gone deep into the studies - 

 

Is it all about polyphenols or do these others listed for one brand matter at all ( and if they do matte you do you prioritize and negotiate between them when the contradict:

"FFA(.2) Poly (338) Oleic(75) Peroxide (4.8)"

 

Right now I just look at the polyphenols. Some other parameters maybe tocopherols. De Carlo tenuta Mossa 2016 had poly+toco count > 1000 ppm

 

5) Somewhat related to query #3 above but less stringent and more of a general guideline for mentally classifying EVOOs: Do you have any heuristic rules of thumb classifying above certain threshold the levels are moderate / high / very high? Somehow in my research and interest in general health the magical wold of EVOO selection has somehow evaded me!

 

 

Classification according to the cited eurolive study:

 

ow content EVOO= 3 ppms total polyphenols*

Medium= 164

High= 366

 

Of course this community is only interested in high and very high contents, very high we can generally define as something significantly over 366 ppm, like for example 600 or 700 ppm 

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Michael Rae indicated in this post that - regarding Oro Bailén Reserva Familiar Picual available via Amazon.com,  that he is "confident that "El Presidente" = "Reserva Familiar":

 

If they are the exact same exact EVOO by different names, then why is it that Olive Oil Lovers ( the site you mentioned) lists polyphenols of 593 for "Oro Bailen Reserva Familiar Picual" with Fall 2016 harvest date, yet, Amphora Nueva lists polyphenols of 288 for the ""El Presidente" (Oro Bailen Picual)" November 2016 harvest date?

 

 

 

Mechanism, I simply see it like that: 

 

either MR is wrong, or the amphora nueva value is wrong.

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3) nutrients generally have a dose response that is only linear for a subset ( if any ) of the therapeutic doses. The curve can be curvilinear, U-shaped / J-curve, and often has at least a plateauing of benefits with limited benefit above a certain level. There can also be a threshold effect where positive effects only really start to kick in above that threshold.

 

****For the phenolics, what numbers do you look for - is there a level above which you say hey looks great and may choose a less expensive brand ... Or for all 4 of you do you buy the highest phenolic brand, irregardless of cost or the availability of other high phenolic brands?****

 

How do you negotiate these "marginal return" ( vs opportunity cost of other brand) questions in choosing your annual EVOO brand?

 

4) what combination / relative priority of phytonutrients do you look at ( the numbers do not mean anything to me at this point as I have not gone deep into the studies -

 

Is it all about polyphenols or do these others listed for one brand matter at all ( and if they do matte you do you prioritize and negotiate between them when the contradict:

"FFA(.2) Poly (338) Oleic(75) Peroxide (4.8)"

 

I'm surprised to see that I haven't actually posted on this before. Based on these studies, it's pretty clear that the benefits of EVOO phenolics continue dose-responsively at least as far as 350 ppm — but I don't think we can just assume that they will continue in linear fashion thereafter, rather than reaching a ceiling effect: the graded dose-response studies haven't been done. That said, ceterus paribus I do go for the highest-phenolic EVOO I can get my hands on.

 

The other thing is that irrespective of the direct health benefits of a given level of phenolics if all the other chemistry is the same at harvest, higher-phenolic EVOOs will preserve their chemistry better after harvest: it will take longer for phenolic degradation to bring the level down <350 ppm, and the phenolics also protect the rest of the chemistry against oxidative damage.

 

For other chemical markers, I would suggest going by Veronica Foods' in-house Ultra-Premium EVOO standard, though I would insist on ≥350 ppm phenolics as per the above, and ≥70% oleic acid (not the same as "free oleic acid" = FFA!!), and greatly prefer PV ≤8 instead of ≤9 mEQ O2/kg.

 

Cost as such doesn't enter into it for me: Amphora charges very fair prices, and all their oils cost the same.

 

Takeaway lesson to source EVOOs: the 366 ppm benchmark might be used IMO as a good-quality quantity which ensures high protection with about 2 daily tablespoons ingested.

 

So, if we choose the ultra-high PC EVOOS, a 724 ppm PC EVOO ensures the same protection with only one daily tablespoon.

 

You're falling into the same trap of thinking of EVOO as simply a delivery system for EVOO phenolics again. As I said previously:

 

 

If it is impossible to buy in both hemispheres, buy just after crop, estimate the amount needed for about 6 months, then buy no more EVOO until next crop and use alternatives or no oil at all [because of polyphenols degradation in EVOO]

 

This is like refusing to eat frozen vegetables if you suddenly can't buy fresh. Remember, first, that EVOO has more robustly-demostrated health benefits than any other single food on the planet, by a wide margin. (Try to find a multi-year randomized controlled trial with hard outcomes with fruit, vegetables, coffee, or anything else you care to mention. Nuts were in PREDIMED — and overall, EVOO performed as well or better. And there's arguably stronger epidemiology on EVOO than nuts).

 

Remember, too, that the vast majority (all, I suspect) of the epidemiological data supporting the value of EVOO — and the massive PREDIMED clinical trial — all involved people who only had access to Northern Hemisphere (and, usually, Spanish, Italian, or Greek) olive oil, in most cases bought off the shelf: they didn't have the luxury of dual-hemisphere purchasing, low-temperature pitch-black storage, etc. It's still massively beneficial. Worrying about the phenolics and the rest of the chemistry is optimizing around the edges [emphasis added].

 

You are a Damned Fool if you aren't consuming EVOO — preferably, the best you can get and convince yourself that you can afford, but you want this baby even if you are stuck with last season's bathwater.

 

The evidence for "consume ≥2 T EVOO/d" is much stronger than the evidence for "consume EVOO with this particular chemical profile." Worrying about the phenolics and the rest of the chemistry is a secondary matter after this threshold issue.

 

 

Michael Rae indicated in this post that - regarding Oro Bailén Reserva Familiar Picual available via Amazon.com, that he is "confident that "El Presidente" = "Reserva Familiar":

 

If they are the exact same exact EVOO by different names, then why is it that Olive Oil Lovers ( the site you mentioned) lists polyphenols of 593 for "Oro Bailen Reserva Familiar Picual" with Fall 2016 harvest date, yet, Amphora Nueva lists polyphenols of 288 for the ""El Presidente" (Oro Bailen Picual)" November 2016 harvest date?

Mechanism, I simply see it like that:

 

either MR is wrong, or the amphora nueva value is wrong.

You're neglecting the third possibility, which I consider most likely: the "olive oil lovers" website value is wrong. Amphora/VF have a very long record of running and posting comprehensive chemistry on their oils, and are fanatic on this point — and they use Modern Olives, one of the most reputable EVOO labs in the world. The OOL site may be quoting a previous year, or have had the chemistry run by amateurs, or goodness knows what.

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MR goes:

 

The evidence for "consume ≥2 T EVOO/d" is much stronger than the evidence for "consume EVOO with this particular chemical profile." Worrying about the phenolics and the rest of the chemistry is a secondary matter after this threshold issue.

 

 

That's a good point, the benefits may come from some other unknown or yet-to-be-singled-out compound.

 

mechanism goes:

.... how do you wonderful EVOO afficianados prepare entrees with EVOO to minimize damage and maximize polyphenol retention. Suggestions for the food preparation dilemma from the previous paragraph appreciated

 

I often do both: use some EVOO while cooking, add more after cooking.

Edited by mccoy

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My wife sautées with EVOO at high temperature

 

 

Ha, ha, woman, what you gonna do

You destroyed all the virtues that the Lord gave you

...Such an evoo woman

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All this talk about polyphenols in extra-virgin olive oil and "EVOO has more robustly-demostrated health benefits than any other single food on the planet, by a wide margin", I am skeptical. Studies done with populations who's holy grail is olive oil, which is associated with the overall health Mediterranean diet, do not highly impress me. Countering the placebo effect in this environment is difficult. And nuts to using nuts as control or comparison. And do experiments with most any fruit or vegetable with the highest quality vegetable or fruit -- I recall having seen none. For comparison of polyphenols and antioxidants in plant foods, see: http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v64/n3s/fig_tab/ejcn2010221t1.html?foxtrotcallback=true .

Edited by AlPater

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Excellent link alPater,  #1 cloves with 15% PC is just totally impressive.

I'm already thinking about a concoction of the first 4 items in the list and how a drink made out of them would taste. I have'em all, going to try tomorrow and report back. if I'm still alive of course. 

Also, we should build up a PolyContent score by servings. Cacao powder would maybe score #1. That's purely quantitative of course, the qualitative issue is probably as important as quantity. EVOO has secoiridoids which are told to carry pronounced xenohormetic properties. True or blown out of porportion? I'm enjoying the game and have become myself an avid polyphenols hunter.

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 Mccoy:  the qualitative issue is probably as important as quantity

 

There is also the issue of unique synergistic/additive/antagonistic effects    Red wine polyphenols are a good example.   This excellent article is worth another look in that regard:

 

Putative Role of Red Wine Polyphenols against Brain Pathology in Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s Disease

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4981604/

 

(cited previously in the  mTOR and reversal of brain aging  thread.)

Edited by Sibiriak

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For those interested, the California Olive Oil Council, COOC, lists on their website all California olive oils (to include the producers' websites) that have passed their stringent requirements each year.  I've bought from about 5 different companies through the years and all have been outstanding.

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My olive oil strategy (esp. now that I'm in North America):

 

Every half-year, once Amphora Nueva appears to have received all the new olive oils from the most recent season, I estimate my use for six months, pad that estimate a bit, then order enough for six months. Freeze all but 5 or 6 weeks' worth in very small glass containers (knowing some damage is done by freezing, but estimating it's an amount about equal to that done by 5–6 weeks' worth of sitting at room temperature). Then enjoy. Repeat six months later.

 

It's an autopilot thing for me. Amphora Nueva is eminently trust- and support-worthy.

 

Brian

 

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The check Amphora nueva makes on total PC, consulting an external specialized lab is invaluable. Sometimes producers, like it happened when I called De Carlo, won't even disclose their values.

My reference for future sourcing of Italian Ultra-Hi-PC EVOOS will be the values from Amphora nueva

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Mech. - In part because they can't predict pace of sales, Amphora Nueva is forced to keep the oil at supra–phase change temperatures, which is well above 0 °C. Even with zero exposure to oxygen, degradation of course occurs. Thus my choice of the cryonics option. Revival imperfect, but that's OK.

 

Brian 

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All this talk about polyphenols in extra-virgin olive oil and "EVOO has more robustly-demostrated health benefits than any other single food on the planet, by a wide margin", I am skeptical. Studies done with populations who's holy grail is olive oil, which is associated with the overall health Mediterranean diet, do not highly impress me. Countering the placebo effect in this environment is difficult.

It seems to me you have this backward. In the Med, EVOO is an ordinary food: it's in North America, northern Europe, and Australia that it's an exotic health food. IAC, it's certainly easy to use low- vs. high-phenolic EVOO for a placebo, and nuts and low-fat diets (also used as comparators, albeit certainly not placebo-like in actually blinding anyone to the intervention) are also adjudicated healthy in many/most people's minds.

 

And nuts to using nuts as control or comparison.

Why, exactly...? They're clearly a healthy food, and have the advantage of being high in fat (to help disentangle macronutrients from food-specific effects).

 

And do experiments with most any fruit or vegetable with the highest quality vegetable or fruit -- I recall having seen none. For comparison of polyphenols and antioxidants in plant foods, see: http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v64/n3s/fig_tab/ejcn2010221t1.html?foxtrotcallback=true .

But (for the umpteenth time)  that's a count of phenol groups per gram, not hard outcomes resulting from or associated with consumption documented in large-scale multi-year clinical trials and extensive prospective epidemiology:

 

 

they're falling into the very essence of "nutritionism," focused on a food's micronutrients rather than its actual effects as a whole food. And, to the extent that one is going to talk about bioactives, one must be specific: it's silly to just talk about the summed "bulk of the healthful antioxidants, phytochemicals." One wants to know what phytochemicals, and what the food matrix is, and why one should pay attention to that particular bioactive and not another. Lycopene ≠ EgCG ≠ capsaicin ≠ oleuropein, and it's silly to just sum them up.

The dominant phenolics in EVOO (hydroxytyrosol and its secoiridoid derivatives, and a few dubious cases like oleocanthal (which is actually a tyrosol derivative — vide infra), and these are more or less only found in olives and olive oil — and many of them, only in the oil itself.

 

As well, just counting up "polyphenols" (even per Calorie) also ignores the fact that these phenolics are in a particular food matrix, and their metabolic (and hence health) effects will necessarily differ even if it were the same phenolics in a different food matrix.

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