Fiber and eccessive regularity

[mccoy]

Hi all, 

first of all, did a search in this forum, found nothing, may not have employed the right keywords but that's it.

 

I recently switched to an almost 100% plant-based regimen. Eliminated dairy products because of the related PCa risks and increased use of soymilk, beans, muesli, whole cereals. I keep eating large amounts of fruit and vegetables, every meal now is replete with fibers.

 

I'm at 70 g/day fiber average now and the effect I notice is... too much 'regularity' , that is high evacuation frequency, with very loose stools. I'm aware that it might be a transitional period and am wondering if you plant-based guys have suffered the same affliction with comparable quantities of fiber and what have done about that.

 

I'm also aware that the fiber quantity of primitive population (and our ancestral gatherers-hunters) is believed to be in the region of 200 g/d. Optimum regularity with such huge amounts of fiber would probably imply a very finely-tuned gut bioma.

 

[Sibiriak]

My advice from personal experience (I can't justify it scientifically):

 

Cut back on the cereals a bit. 

Increase fermented vegetables

Include some inulin (chicory is a good source).

Drink a small amount of kefir daily.

[mikeccolella]

Hi Mcoy,

According to cron o meter I get 86 gms of fiber from nuts, fruits, veggies, legumes and grains. I am very regular. Cup of coffee first thing and then straight to the BR and thats it for the day.I do drink kefir or danactive switchingthem week to week. Constipation is rampant in my family. When i had a colonoscopy the laxative did not even work. It was like drinking water. I suffered with cronic constipation as a young man until I learned to eat proper foods. I understand the colonic microbiome will need time to adjust to your new diet.

[mccoy]

@ sibiriak: Thanks for the tips!

 

@ Mike: congratulations for the 84 grams of daily fiber, maybe I'll figure out how you do that. It's interesting that it took that massive amount to prime a genetically lazy intestine.

[mikeccolella]

Colon doc said my bowel is "very long" which he claimed causes food to dry out by the time it reaches the end and thus more fibre is needed. The colon itself is not at all lazy, rather the waste material becomes like concrete by the time it gets there if I dont eat a lot of fibre. The colon pushes but the stool is too hard. Fibre, not laxatives solves the problem entirely.

[TomBAvoider]

Once a day, usually. Occassionally I skip a day completely, and very occassionally it's twice a day. Not loose - but SOFT. And VERY LARGE. The only problem I have is that domestic toilet plumbing has not been designed for someone like me - not infrequently I'll jam up the toilet and have to work to get it flowing again... this happens almost every time I skip a day, the next day the BM is more compacted and less soft, and it just plugs up the toilet completely. No issue with commercial toilets with high water flow. I consume about 80g fiber a day more or less. The key thing here is to get enough liquids, otherwise excess fiber can get compacted, which can cause trouble. A good mix of soluble and insoluble. Fiber is part of the prebiotic complex that allows a better profile of gut bacteria. Give it some time for the body to adjust to more fiber and then see what the deal is. It is also possible that meal frequency might be a factor. I only eat twice a day. Perhaps if I ate more often I might have to go more often - but I have not tested this.

[Sthira]

The only problem I have is that domestic toilet plumbing has not been designed for someone like me - not infrequently I'll jam up the toilet and have to work to get it flowing again...

Yeah, and see me: my dumps are so catastrophically huge that I clog residential toilets without pause. Two, three per day. My solution is to flush like half way through the act; this works to pause the humiliating shame that I'll just transfer from this act to another act unrelated. I average 100/g per day of fiber shame because of them beans and them greens and them berries: so there.

 

I didn't think many others had this clog-the-toilet problem but me. Silly me, I was listening to the Buddhist nun Pema Chodren, who said, think about this, that whatever you're doing or experiencing or thinking about or deeply feeling or enduring through to the bitter ends of your little life, that there are literally hundreds of millions of people just like you who are going through the exact same mess. Depressed? Hundreds of millions. Worried about that hip that keeps popping out of its joint? Hundreds of millions. Tooth failing? HOM.

 

So we aren't alone with this problem, or that one, or those problems, or not even that one over there, and not that really big one you just plopped. It's the human condition, haha...

 

Actually, it's not very funny at all. Humanity's reign on earth is about to end. So straighten up y'all's shit, y'all.

[mccoy]

Mmmm...., I'm wondering how you guys can hit those amounts of fiber, and by the way, those reports of clogged toilets are sure entertaining!

I went back thru my cronometer records and only once I went beyond 80, one day when I ate 3100 kCal and beans.  I'm also noticing that vegetables are much lower in fiber than beans and cereals so this might be the answer. My latest weekly average is only 68 g/d.

 

So, ruling out an excessive amount of fiber, I came out with some possible causes for my present over-regularity (I eat twice a day).

 

1. Recalibration of gut bioma to the new regimen
2. Addition of laxative food and supplements such as flaxseed, prunes, Mg-citrate, (which I'm moderating now)

[Sthira]

 

Mmmm...., I'm wondering how you guys can hit those amounts of fiber, and by the way, those reports of clogged toilets are sure entertaining!

I went back thru my cronometer records and only once I went beyond 80, one day when I ate 3100 kCal and beans. I'm also noticing that vegetables are much lower in fiber than beans and cereals so this might be the answer. My latest weekly average is only 68 g/d.

 

So, ruling out an excessive amount of fiber, I came out with some possible causes for my present over-regularity (I eat twice a day).

 

• Recalibration of gut bioma to the new regimen
• Addition of laxative food and supplements such as flaxseed, prunes, Mg-citrate, (which I'm moderating now)

Ah well it turns out that I can hit those high amounts of fiber only by lying or exaggerating my Cronometer numbers. Sorry about that! I rechecked my averages, and drawing upon one, YTD, my fiber averages near to yours, Sr. McCoy, or 67/g per day.

 

My numbers got skewed toward the high end by a sudden six-month addiction to garbanzo beans, which are high. But you're right, legume fiber comes with the unwanted expense of higher calories.

 

But I love chickpeas and lentils, and actually beans of all varieties, and they're "mostly" my protein source.

 

As far as your over-regularity is concerned, I'd interpret your problem as no problem at all. Rather, i take it as a sign of good digestive health if your body is removing waste after nearly every meal.

 

This is one way I choose to eat: don't refeed until I've crapped out the last batch of meal, and I'm hungry again.

 

Apparently I'm odd: I can go long, long periods of time without food, and my body doesn't seem to care very much. But maybe I've conditioned it to behave this way -- eat when I'm hungry -- because here in USA no one around me has this skill or ability. Are Italians different? Or has food culture mostly been spoiled by American excess?

[TomBAvoider]

I have a pretty fiber centric diet. Consider my daily "breakfast soup":
 
psyllium husk - 1tb = 5g psh = 15 calories = 4.5g fiber 
psyllium husk powder - 1tsp = 5g psh = 15 cal = 4.5g fiber = dose x 3 = 45 cal 13.5g fiber
oat bran 1/4 cup (4tb) = 58 calories 3.6 g fiber
brewers yeast 1tb = 60 calories = 3.5g fiber
flaxmeal 1tb = 38 cal = 2g fiber
protein 1 scoop = 26 cal = 7 g protein
 
 
approx. 100g blueberries - 57 cal - 2.4 g fiber
OR
approx. 100g blackberries - 43 cal - 5g fiber
 
approx. 290 cal - 310cal


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approx. 30g - 32g of fiber

 

all dissolved in 2 cups of green tea.
 
So right there, just in the breakfast soup there's 30-32 grams of fiber, plus, for breakfast I add a portion of almonds and some fruit, for approx 45g - 50g of fiber. Dinner is another about 30g of fiber, and there you are, approx. 75g-85g of fiber daily, average about 80g. 

[mccoy]

 

Apparently I'm odd: I can go long, long periods of time without food, and my body doesn't seem to care very much. But maybe I've conditioned it to behave this way -- eat when I'm hungry -- because here in USA no one around me has this skill or ability. Are Italians different? Or has food culture mostly been spoiled by American excess?

 

 

No, Italians are not different from Americans, they don't like to fast not even to skip meals and they usually exceed, especially in starch, refined pasta being the commonest dietary abuse. Also, too much meat after the war. 

[mikeccolella]

Keep in mind that on a calorie basis vegetables generally have the most fibre. According to cron o meter 100 calories of broccoli has 9.4 gms of fibre and lentils have 5.1 gms per 100 calories. Garbanzo beans have 4.6 gms per 100 calories. Also blackberries and raspberries, which I eat, are loaded with fibre when you factor it by calries.

[mccoy]

Mike yes, you're right, only it is clear that when we are dealing with vegetables the parameter which governs is bulk, not calories. That's Dr. Fuhrman's mistake, who allotted in his ideal plan 60% of dietary energy to vegetables, which is an impossible rule to follow to most people, as we discussed, since that would amount to many kilograms of vegetables daily.

 

Usually, barring a few situations, the limiting factor in vegetables is how much your stomach can accomodate, for example I find I can accomodate up to 2 pounds max in a single meal (less if they are broccoli or cauliflowers), after that I'm dead.

[Sibiriak]

Regarding the various types of fiber etc.:

 

Fiber and Prebiotics: Mechanisms and Health Benefits

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3705355/

 

 

Prebiotics, Probiotics and Synbiotics:

Applications of inulin and probiotics in health and nutrition  (pdf)

[Sibiriak]

Mccoy:  high evacuation frequency, with very loose stools..

.

Another suggestion to deal with dysbiosis:    substitute bananas (at least temporarily) for some of the cereals/high fiber foods.

 

Also,  eating lightly water-cooked oatmeal/buckwheat, rather than soaked raw in lots of soymilk, will increase digestibility and may help with dysbiosis. That's been my experience.

 

 

Bananas are a fascinating fruit in terms of their carbohydrate and sugar content. Even though bananas are a fruit that tastes quite sweet when ripe—containing 14-15 grams of total sugar—bananas receive a rating of low in their glycemic index (GI) value. GI measures the impact of a food on our blood sugar. This low GI value for bananas is most likely related to two of their carbohydrate-related qualities.

 

First, as mentioned previously, a medium-size banana contains about 3 grams of total fiber. Fiber is a nutrient that helps regulate the speed of digestion, and by keeping digestion well-regulated, conversion of carbohydrates to simple sugars and release of simple sugars from digesting foods also stays well-regulated.

 

Within their total fiber content, bananas also contain pectins. Pectins are unique and complicated types of fiber. Some of the components in pectins are water-soluble, and others are not. As bananas ripen, their water-soluble pectins increase, and this increase is one of the key reasons why bananas become softer in texture as they ripen. As their water-soluble pectins increase, so does their relative concentration of fructose in comparison to other sugars. This increase in water-soluble pectins and higher proportional fructose content helps normalize the rate of carbohydrate digestion and moderates the impact of banana consumption on our blood sugar. The bottom line here are some surprisingly digestion-friendly consequences for a fruit that might be casually dismissed as being too high in sugar to be digestion-friendly.

 

Similar to the importance of their water-soluble pectins is the digestive importance of fructooligosaccharides (FOS) in bananas. FOS are unique fructose-containing carbohydrates that are typically not broken down by enzymes in our digestive tract. Instead, they move along through the digestive tract until they reach our lower intestine and get metabolized by bacteria. This process helps maintain the balance of "friendly" bacteria (for example, Bifidobacteria) in our lower intestine, and as a consequence, it also supports our overall digestive health.

 

In one study involving female participants, eating two bananas each day for two months led to significant increases in Bifidobacteria. Along with these increased levels of Bifidobacteria, participants also experienced fewer gastrointestinal problems and more regular bowel function when compared to other women in the study who drank a banana-flavored beverage that did not contain any actual banana.

 

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=7

[mccoy]

thanks Sibiriak for reminding me some beneficial properties of bananas, a fruit I used to eat in abundance but that I'm pretty much ignoring lately.

 

I've just bought a brand-new blender, whose specific purpose is make berries & bananas smoothies. During the weekends and holidays,  I'm going to eat bananas & frozen berries smoothies instead of muesli. As soon as the blackberries around my house will ripen, I'm going to use those fresh berries.

 

Only refinement is goign to be type of milk to use: soymilk, rice & coconut, almond, hazelnut...

 

Soymilk here is by far the more unexpensive.

[mccoy]

Here it is, bananas+frozen berries smoothie, with just a little soymilk to allow the blender to blend.

It was a celestial, ambrosia-like taste, just the colour made me drool!

I ate just frozen smoothie in this >30°C day.

 

 

[Gordo]

Hey McCoy, also try freezing (peeled) bananas.  We've been making frozen banana/pineapple/mango/jack fruit "ice cream" here in paradise (CR² Costa Rica trip) almost every day.  This is one of the cool things I've learned here (for some reason I never thought to freeze bananas before, or to make ice cream from them which is nothing more than sticking them in a blender and blending).

 

Also you may like to try more chia:

Chia Seeds – Holy Grail Of Bowel Movements? “The Perfect Stool”

[mccoy]

Gordo, I'm glad to hear that you guys are having fun!

Yes, I knew about the bananas trick, actually I cut'em in slices and put'em in the freezer in single small bags. Frozen bananas + peaches/strawberries are an incredible natural ice cream, the purple smoothie posted above has some frozen bananas in it, but to use little or no liquids probably you need a very powerful blender like a vitamix (mine is 800 W power which is not very much)