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CR with ZeroCarb

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(I searched for this information in vain before deciding to post this)

 

Is anyone here practicing CR while eating ZeroCarb? What about CR+ZeroCarb+OMAD? Basically eating once a day, and just eating meat in that sitting. 

 

I'd love to hear your thoughts. I eat ZeroCarb (occasionally OMAD) but I'm considering adding CR to it for health (and thus longevity) reasons.

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I think most here are vegetarian/vegan.  A few are low carb.  I've been keto for almost 2 years but I'm eating a mixed diet with maybe 1/2 of my calories from animal foods but most of the bulk from leafy greens and other vegetables plus a little fruit.  Almost everyone here tries to hit a high level on all micronutrients while restricting calories.  Cron-o-meter is  a popular app for tracking nutritional intake.  I expect it will be challenging to cover the full micronutrient spectrum eating zero carb, for example vitamins C and A tend to be limited in animal foods, though one could supplement such as many vegans do for B12 and sometimes other things hard to get from plant sources.

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I doubt that zero carb/carnivore suits the purpose of CR, since you are going to eat too many protein, unless you are able in a carnivore diet to stop at 0.6-0.8 g/kg/d protein, which seems very difficult or nearly impossible (you should eat prevalently fat and very little meat).

CR is also based on moderate leucine and methionine, which are conversely very high in animal protein. mTOR is probably going to be overamplified, notwithstanding the single daily meal.

 

Last, extreme diets like fruitarian and carnivorous by definition do not belong to CR+ON (CR+optimized nutrition). 

 

The Rosedale diet, which includes many vegetables, is sure a CR alternative. But it is low protein besides being low carbs.

 

Bottom line, and I hate to be a party pooper, but a ZC-carnivorous diet does not seem to be a serious scheme for longevity. Rather, the other way around.

 

Moderate meat plus lots of low carb vegetables might be. With some supplements.

 

Later on, since I have tog oto work now,  I'll try and see what a ZC-moderate protein diet would look like in cronometer.

Edited by mccoy

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Mccoy: ZC-carnivorous diet does not seem to be a serious scheme for longevity.

 

That makes sense.  But I want to consult with Melvin West before I come to any final judgment.

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srid, since I love fiddling with cronometer, I prepared a tentative CR-ZC plan for you, at about 1700 kcal (this of course depends on your size but it can be scaled up or down).

My constraints were low calories (1700) and protein equal to the RDA (0.8 g/kg/d), the rest being fat. I entered 50 grams of beef liver per day, in the attempt to maximize micronutrients. I Could not enter more, since that would pose you art risk of hypervitaminosis. So, your daily diet would be something like this:

Pork, bacon, pan, fried, 70 g

Atlantic salòmon, cooked, 70 g

Beef liver, 50 g

Olive oil, 4 tbsp

lard, 75 gr.

 

The above quantities, you cannot exceed. However, this plan is far from perfect. For example methionine, which ideally should be low in a CR diet, is 1.6 g (250% RDA), this might give you problems in lowering IGF-1

Also,  you would remain deficient in many nutrients:

  • Omega-3 (but you might substitute some flaxseed oil to EVOO)
  • B1, B6 (marginally), choline, folate (pretty much)
  • Vitamin C (very deficient)
  • Vitamin E
  • Vitamin K (pretty deficient)
  • Calcium, magnesium, manganese, potassium (very deficient)
  • Iron 
  • zinc

Of course, you might supplement, so you are theorically all right, if you can hack it (I mean, a very boring diet). Variety can be introduced, but amounts of  proteic food must remain low, as you've seen, about  200 grams daily. 

Besides, this is a diet which has never been observed to be conducive to longevity, unilke the diets of the blue zones dwellers. Cholesterol is very high and you should have to check regularly your lipds, also your inflammation markers like CRP.

 

Re. melvin West: he's an expert on ZC recipes and I was tempted to include some exotic variety in the above cronometer plan, but I just couldn't find snake flesh in the cronometer database!

 

Anyway, if you are convinced and like the challenge, thats'it, please keep us informed!

 

Disclaimer: I'm not an health professional, the above diet may be hazardous to health since missing many nutrients and I do not suggest it. Such a diet, if initiated, should be followed under strict medical supervision.

 

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Edited by mccoy

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Regretfully, we didn't hear form srid, I would have liked to know his opinion. I really don't see any reason why to practice an extreme, unbalanced ZC carnivorous diet. It's enough to be a little more elastic and throw into some low-carb vegetables, that the diet might become a real CR pro-longevity low-carb diet, a la Ron rosedale. With the following example, we have 180 grams per day fish and meat, healthy fats like EVOO, flaxseed oil, nuts, 750 gr romaine and 100 gr green pepper. Only 19 gr net carbs, which makes it a fully keto diet. Proteins are 116% RDA but 15% of these are from lettuce, leucine is pretty moderate at 176% although Methionyne is pretty high.

Now, the only micronutrients deficiencies are the following: choline, Ca, Mg, K, Zn. Nothing compared to the massive deficiencies of the previous ZC carnivorous CR diet.

 

 

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mccoy so many thanks for your very useful posts! sibiriak i found your websites super helpful as well. generally, i wanted to ask you guys if you don't mind me asking questions? i just see that you know these things very well and i'm a newcomer. thanks for everything so far and looking forward for your answers! 

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11 hours ago, Seect1982 said:

mccoy so many thanks for your very useful posts! sibiriak i found your websites super helpful as well. generally, i wanted to ask you guys if you don't mind me asking questions? i just see that you know these things very well and i'm a newcomer. thanks for everything so far and looking forward for your answers! 

seect, are you the same person as the OP srid? 

You are welcome to post any questions, I've surely benefited from attending this forum, lots of useful practical suggestions and discussions.

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6 hours ago, mccoy said:

seect, are you the same person as the OP srid? 

You are welcome to post any questions, I've surely benefited from attending this forum, lots of useful practical suggestions and discussions.

No, i'm not OP, this is my first account here.

thanks for the warm welcome!

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On 7/14/2018 at 3:32 PM, mccoy said:

Regretfully, we didn't hear form srid, I would have liked to know his opinion.

I'm back! Sorry, I had no idea that my post had received replies until I stumbled across it when searching Google for "omad  site:crsociety.org".

mccoy - I appreciate all that info, thank you!

I'm doing ZeroCarb only because it cures my chronic folliculitis (originally triggered by use of antibiotics about 4 years ago) 95%. Whenever I cheated my folliculitis returned in vengeance (I was cheating with hedonic foods like ice cream, poutine, chocolate, ..). 

My ZeroCarb diet has stabilized now (i.e., no more periodic cheating), so I'd like to reintroduce foods one at a time (I think nuts are off, sadly, but I'll re-check). Then perhaps I'd try CR+OMAD with the second plan (keto) mccoy suggested. In any case, I'll let you all know. 

Carbohydrates are easier to consume than hunting for reliable fat sources.

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An attempt might be to avoid foods with marked xenohormetic properties, like legumes, nightshades, gluten containing cereals and so on. Dr. Gundry's diet, Dr Wahl's diet, are examples of a diet which avoids such compounds. These diets also include lots of green-leaved vegetables. The rationale as far as I've understood is that the immune system has become oversensitive to the plant toxins contained in small amounts in some plant-based foods, so triggering an amplified response and autoimmunitary reactions .

 

Edited by mccoy

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On 7/7/2018 at 2:18 AM, srid said:

(I searched for this information in vain before deciding to post this)

Is anyone here practicing CR while eating ZeroCarb? What about CR+ZeroCarb+OMAD? Basically eating once a day, and just eating meat in that sitting. 

I'd love to hear your thoughts. I eat ZeroCarb (occasionally OMAD) but I'm considering adding CR to it for health (and thus longevity) reasons.

Yup that's me. What do you want to know? So far I'm doing well on carnivore raw OMAD. The fat loss is DRAMATIC though.

 

On 7/10/2018 at 12:47 AM, Todd Allen said:

I expect it will be challenging to cover the full micronutrient spectrum eating zero carb, for example vitamins C and A tend to be limited in animal foods, though one could supplement such as many vegans do for B12 and sometimes other things hard to get from plant sources.

There is actually plenty of Vitamin A in liver and Vitamin C is present in meat & organs as well - however the C gets destroyed if that meat is cooked. So a non-raw carnivore diet follower may be deficient. A raw carnivore diet can actually cover every nutrient, but that does mean that there will be specific foods that you need to consume with relatively little leeway in variety. I am personally ok with this but I bet many would find it too boring/extreme.

 

On 7/10/2018 at 8:23 AM, mccoy said:

I doubt that zero carb/carnivore suits the purpose of CR, since you are going to eat too many protein, unless you are able in a carnivore diet to stop at 0.6-0.8 g/kg/d protein, which seems very difficult or nearly impossible (you should eat prevalently fat and very little meat).

The carnivore diet actually isn't high protein, most of us do a ketogenic carnivore diet. Fatty meats with organs, butter, lard, dairy etc. Protein excess has too many negatives to be a worthwhile main calorie source.

 

On 7/10/2018 at 8:23 AM, mccoy said:

CR is also based on moderate leucine and methionine, which are conversely very high in animal protein. mTOR is probably going to be overamplified, notwithstanding the single daily meal.

That is true. Pretty much all food sources in a carnivore diet increase anabolic processes like mTOR and IGF-1. The one benefit I see in this is a split between muscle mass and longevity/health. But from a pure longevity stand point it's definitely not the best solution.

 

On 7/10/2018 at 8:23 AM, mccoy said:

Last, extreme diets like fruitarian and carnivorous by definition do not belong to CR+ON (CR+optimized nutrition). 

Why would that be? I understand fruitarians not doing well due to the insulin spikes keeping one out of ketosis longer but CR + ON on a raw carnivore diet with a ketogenic profile is a breeze (at least for me).

 

On 7/10/2018 at 8:23 AM, mccoy said:

Bottom line, and I hate to be a party pooper, but a ZC-carnivorous diet does not seem to be a serious scheme for longevity. Rather, the other way around.

It's a middle ground actually. There's plenty of downsides to consuming carbohydrates too. The main difference I see is that a carnivore diet will be more damaging to the body due to the stress of the anabolic effects while the carb/veg group will have more damage from inflammation and anti nutrients. Pick your poison I guess.

 

On 7/10/2018 at 9:23 PM, mccoy said:

Also,  you would remain deficient in many nutrients:

  • Omega-3 (but you might substitute some flaxseed oil to EVOO)

Flaxseed oil does not convert to omega 3 in all people in reasonable quantities, this depends upon genetics (it also has the highest xenoestrogen content of any food on the planet). Also grass fed meat has a nearly perfect omega 6 to 3 ratio of 1:1. Consuming it raw would preserve more of the 3's that would otherwise be lowered by cooking/frying. I am lucky enough to live in Switzerland where I literally get my meat from the farmer next door.

 

On 7/10/2018 at 9:23 PM, mccoy said:

Also,  you would remain deficient in many nutrients:

  • B1, B6 (marginally), choline, folate (pretty much)
  • Vitamin C (very deficient)
  • Vitamin E
  • Vitamin K (pretty deficient)
  • Calcium, magnesium, manganese, potassium (very deficient)
  • Iron 
  • zinc
  • Egg yolks and fish roe
  • Vitamin C is present in raw meat and organs. You might also find this interesting: https://zerocarbzen.com/vitamin-c/
  • Vitamin E is easy to get through raw milk. The removal of the milk fat in conventional milk removes the E and several other fat soluble vitamins.
  • Vit K once again can be had from milk/dairy. Needs to be grass fed though.
  • Milk again
  • Iron is easy to get, either from organ meats or by drinking blood.
  • Zinc sources are lamb, grass fed beef, dairy

One thing you have to keep in mind when looking up nutrients online is that they will usually be talking about the nutrient content of the most common form of the food. Which for milk for example would be pasteurized, homogenized, defattened and maybe even UHT'd milk. This of course changes the nutrient profile quite drastically compared to raw milk. The same problem exists with meat, when you look up beef for example the majority of online sources will get their numbers from grain fed and cooked beef.

 

On 7/10/2018 at 9:23 PM, mccoy said:

Cholesterol is very high and you should have to check regularly your lipds, also your inflammation markers like CRP.

Cholesterol numbers' impact should largely depend upon the type of cholesterol. The "bad" cholesterol is the oxidized kind, meanwhile unoxidized cholesterol is actually a ROS scavenger and highly anti inflammatory. http://www.hookandson.co.uk/Cholesterol/index.html

Edited by nsTemples
typo

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nsTemples, just one curiosity, but why zero carbs? I mean, what's bad with including green-leaved vegetables and low carb nuts for example?

Edited by mccoy

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3 hours ago, nsTemples said:

Yup that's me. What do you want to know? So far I'm doing well on carnivore raw OMAD. The fat loss is DRAMATIC though.

Thank you for chipping in! I see that you practice CR while losing weight. Do you think you'll continue to practicing CR with raw meat eating after achieving normal body weight? My main concern would be being able to keep a stable weight despite eating once a day because meat can be difficult to chug down the throat.

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52 minutes ago, mccoy said:

nsTemples, just one curiosity, but why zero carbs? I mean, what's bad with including green-leaved vegetables and low carb nuts for example?

Mainly due to the anti nutrients in nuts and vegetables. The most serious offenders are: Phytates, Tannins, Lectins, Protease inhibitors and Calcium Oxalate. The body can tolerate some amounts of those but less (or none at all in zero carb) is better as they tax the organs, can inactivate other nutrients, worsen protein digestion and cause metabolic stress.

These anti nutrients are the natural defense system of the plant. Just like animals, plants also do not want to be eaten (except for their fruits) and thus use these substances to protect themselves. They are toxic to some critters and even animals. Us humans have evolved to stomach them a bit better but they still cause damage. Some people are also genetically less able to neutralize these substances and can thus benefit higly from zero- rather than low carb. Another bonus is that the less anti nutrients you expose your body to the less actual nutrients you'll need as their usage efficiency increases rather than getting bound by the aforementioned substances and excreted inertly.

There are some ways in which their content can be lowered. Such as sprouting, fermenting, sometimes even boiling. However the impact is not exactly worth the trouble in my opinion since one method of treatment usually only lowers one specific anti nutrient. Even if you consume sprouted almonds, fermented cabbage (kimchi) or what have you, it will still contain a good serving of anti nutrients as different substances react better to different methods.

Certain plants which are very low in anti nutrients do exist. As mentioned before fruits and berries usually pack very little of them as the plants *want* the fruit to be consumed. On the vegetable side I can only think of the sweet potato. It has a good profile except for people who are sensitive to sporamin. Definitely a good vegetable choice when looking at anti nutrient content. But due to the starch that's not an option for low carbers.

 

51 minutes ago, srid said:

Thank you for chipping in! I see that you practice CR while losing weight. Do you think you'll continue to practicing CR with raw meat eating after achieving normal body weight? My main concern would be being able to keep a stable weight despite eating once a day because meat can be difficult to chug down the throat.

I actually already have a normal weight. I'm somewhere between 10-8% bodyfat with an ever more pronounced six pack. The current plan is to just see how low I can go with this and then figure out my best maintenance calorie number.

Why do you think meat is difficult to eat? Steak tartare is a staple for me. Absolutely love it. And you can always add a marinade to your meat or whip up a sauce with a lard/milk base and some spices. You shouldn't be consuming too much muscle meat anyway. You need to consume organ meats to reach your nutrient density. Also you need to add condiments like butter, lard or mayonaise (made with lard of course) to hit your fat macronutrient percentage.

Edited by nsTemples

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nsTemple, you really sound like a disciple of Dr. Grundy. However, he admits the use of green vegetables. Ditto for Dr. Terry Wahls., who strongly suggests the consumption of huge amounts of green and coloured vegetables. That's why zero carb - no veggies, would appear like an extremist dietary view.

As you say, plant toxins may be deleterious to a few people (who have health issues). Mostly though, they are beneficial. To me they sure are, since I try to maximize and diversify such toxins (in hormetic amounts) and the results are optimal health. Ditto for most of the members in this forum.

 

Edited by mccoy

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On 9/5/2018 at 6:35 AM, nsTemples said:

Pretty much all food sources in a carnivore diet increase anabolic processes like mTOR and IGF-1. The one benefit I see in this is a split between muscle mass and longevity/health. But from a pure longevity stand point it's definitely not the best solution.

I'd like to see some numbers on this.  While the protein sources from a carnivore diet are a little higher in leucine and perhaps methionine does that really outweigh the impact of the major reduction in carbohydrates on mTOR and IGF-1?  Moderate protein ketogenic diets are typically considered to raise AMPK and inhibit mTOR.

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On 9/5/2018 at 10:42 PM, mccoy said:

nsTemple, you really sound like a disciple of Dr. Grundy. However, he admits the use of green vegetables. Ditto for Dr. Terry Wahls., who strongly suggests the consumption of huge amounts of green and coloured vegetables. That's why zero carb - no veggies, would appear like an extremist dietary view.

As you say, plant toxins may be deleterious to a few people (who have health issues). Mostly though, they are beneficial. To me they sure are, since I try to maximize and diversify such toxins (in hormetic amounts) and the results are optimal health. Ditto for most of the members in this forum.

I actually don't know who either of those two Doctors are. I have been watching Dr. Eric Berg for a while when I was doing normal Keto but other than that I don't really follow anyone. I'll add them to my ever-growing list of writings to check out.

How do you know they are hormetically beneficial? Most people today already have several sources of inflammation even outside of their diet. I'm not sure adding more is a good idea. Neither am I advocating for overdosing on anti inflammatory supplements though (that's a whole different and complicated topic), but I think reducing it is beneficial. Especially when ingesting them also lowers overall nutrient value.

I'm not trying to convert you, if your diet works for you that's none of my business. But which nutrients do you think plants provide that are lacking for a carnivore? I mean sure stuff like Sulforaphane is certainly interesting but most of the things it addresses aren't really a problem in ketogenic carnivores to begin with.

 

On 9/10/2018 at 12:55 AM, Todd Allen said:

I'd like to see some numbers on this.  While the protein sources from a carnivore diet are a little higher in leucine and perhaps methionine does that really outweigh the impact of the major reduction in carbohydrates on mTOR and IGF-1?  Moderate protein ketogenic diets are typically considered to raise AMPK and inhibit mTOR.

On a carnivore diet increasing mTOR and IGF-1 activity?

That's another complicated topic since we also have to keep receptor sensitivity and cascading processes in mind, which in a lowered insulin environment will be higher (more sensitive). That also needs to be broken down more to specific dietary components though. Higher cholesterol intake does increase testosterone levels in most people, which is one factor that influences both mTOR and IGF-1. Then there's a high level of zinc intake which also influences GH, IGF-1 and T. Then there's the high isoleucine content in raw milk which works through PPARγ activation.

If longevity is the goal then lowering Testosterone is probably the highest priority and that to my knowledge is most efficiently accomplished by ingesting low dietary fat. That's why low fat vegans usually have abysmal hormone levels.

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On ‎9‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 8:35 AM, nsTemples said:

The carnivore diet actually isn't high protein

What do you consider 'high' protein consumption?  Do you know how many g/lb or g/kg of protein you are consuming typically? 

 

2 hours ago, nsTemples said:

which nutrients do you think plants provide that are lacking for a carnivore?

Folate and Fiber seem to be (obvious) deficiencies.

(I'm also not convinced you've addressed the other micronutrient deficiencies listed above especially vitamin C).

 

 

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2 hours ago, nsTemples said:

If longevity is the goal then lowering Testosterone is probably the highest priority

I wouldn't be too sure of that.  There is conflicting evidence regarding T and longevity.

From this recent review paper:

Role of androgens in energy metabolism affecting on body composition, metabolic syndrome, type 2 diabetes, cardiovascular disease, and longevity: lessons from a meta-analysis and rodent studies

Epidemiological cohort studies indicate that a low testosterone level is robustly associated with an increased incidence of CV disease in males. The associated obesity, T2DM, and altered lipid profiles are linked to an increased CV risk.

One might question if this is not causal, perhaps testerone is low due to poor health/metabolic impairment?  On the other hand is there any evidence showing increased mortality in men when testosterone is sustained in advanced age in those using exercise and diet in pursuit of muscle and fitness?

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