Walford's chart on running fitness and CR

[Geo]

Hi all,

I've been toying with the idea of CR for a while, but never implemented it seriously. I don't think I'd have the willpower to follow this lifestyle long term.

Except if I find a super convincing reason to do so. The chart below illustrates the reason that would persuade me and give me the motivation to be strict about it. It's from Walford, The Anti-Aging Plan, 1995, p. 11.

The dotted line represent the fastest time a human has run for a marathon, for each age. The plain line below represents what a human on CR could run for each age. To trace the line, Walford extrapolates from animal fitness data (I don't which data, there's no footnote there).

If CR allowed me to maintain my running fitness and still run fast times for as long as I could, and crush it as a masters athlete, I'd do it. I run shorter distance races, but I guess the principle applies irrespective of the distance.

Walford probably does not take into account that to train, and be competitive, a runner needs to eat more than a complete sedentary person. (Probably the mice he used did not train doing the equivalent of 12*400m repeats on mice tracks). Perhaps you can't be both a runner running 60-100 miles a week and on CR.

Runners out there? Do you think that would work at all?

I know it became a sport to knock Walford on the head and to say that if he died so early he must have been wrong on everything. But I want to believe that one!

Thanks for reading and for your answers !

 

Edited November 4, 2018 by Geo

[Todd Allen]

4 hours ago, Geo said:

Perhaps you can't be both a runner running 60-100 miles a week and on CR.

I expect shifting some/most training sessions from high volume endurance training to brief high intensity efforts might be more compatible with both CR and sustaining athleticism with advancing age.  Uphill sprints are one way to maximize intensity while minimizing injury risk and over all wear and tear on an aging body.

[mccoy]

I wonder about the context of Walford's hypothesis. What would be the mechanism by which CR elevates endurance so significantly with increasing age.

Probably the logic is rather that by successfull CR you downregulate aging, by consequence at the same time downregulating the decrease in fitness which would slow down your running times.

Also, as you say, marathon runners must repenish calories, so would we still have CR? By other disucssions in this forum the answer seems to be no (judging on experiments on lab rodents).

Of course, if CRON, or better caloric moderation triggers genetic expressions beneficial to metabolism in an high-energy expenditure environment (for example, tolerance to lactic acid, oxygen optimization), if it increases resilience of connective tissues and joints to inflammation, if it decreases muscular repair times, if it decreases heartbeat ratio and so on, then it would provide a disticnt advantage.

 

Edited November 6, 2018 by mccoy

[mccoy]

Adding to the above, maybe the macro and micronutrients might have a more significant impact than a caloric moderation which per se might be unachievable.

For example, fruits are hydrating and provide simple carbs with a minimum of digestive load. Some vegetable juices such as coconut water is rich in electrolytes. A plant-based diet also seems to improve recovery time and inflammatory symptoms and so on. Also, less time spent on sickness= more time spent in training.

At the end of it though, the issue is probably mainly genetic. A recent podcast I heard about this ultra-endurance guy, he has a 37 beats per minute at rest heartbeat! I doubt it can be achieved by dieting or conditioning.

[Todd Allen]

On 11/6/2018 at 4:40 AM, mccoy said:

he has a 37 beats per minute at rest heartbeat! I doubt it can be achieved by dieting or conditioning.

Probably heart enlargement/left ventricular hypertrophy.  Can be good if it doesn't go pathological.

[mccoy]

Todd, that's right, I didn't imagine ahtlete's heart could be so pronounced but the guy in question really does not spare himself:

https://peterattiamd.com/miketrevino/

I Wonder if cardiomegaly in athletes may bring about any longevity benefits...

 

 

 

[Todd Allen]

On 11/10/2018 at 2:35 AM, mccoy said:

I Wonder if cardiomegaly in athletes may bring about any longevity benefits...

Probably, although strength coach Charles Poliquin's recent death age 57 apparently from a heart attack makes me wonder if he might be an example of cardiomegaly bringing about a shortevity benefit.

[Geo]

Hi mccoy and Todd Allen,

Thanks for your answers, insightful as usual.

Ed Whitlock crushed all masters world records in long distance running from the 1500m to the marathon, but did not die very old (at 86).

He ran a sub3 hours marathon at 70. Walford's chart says a CR athlete could run 2h30 at that age. Granted, one should not take the chart too seriously, its point seems mainly to convey a message (CR delays aging...), rather than give precise figures of what's possible in masters athletics... But still... a 2h30 marathon at 70 would be a fascinating achievement to witness. That would be the equivalent of a 32 minutes 10k (current WR 38), and a 4'30" mile (current WR 5'19"). Those are crazy figures.

Well worth a life time of CR in my opinion.

Edited November 12, 2018 by Geo

[mccoy]

On 11/12/2018 at 7:36 PM, Todd Allen said:

Probably, although strength coach Charles Poliquin's recent death age 57 apparently from a heart attack makes me wonder if he might be an example of cardiomegaly bringing about a shortevity benefit.

Heck, I didn't know Poliquin has passed.  RIP. He was a formidable figure, one of the top in his field and very muscular as well. The cause of his death has not been disclosed. He followed a paleo diet and was currently training. I don't know if he used any steroids.

AFAIK, he was a strenght and hypertrophy guy so not too much engaged in aerobics I wonder if cardiomegalia was the issue

Edited November 13, 2018 by mccoy

[BarryR]

I love running.  I run almost everyday.  But I run 2 miles.  I wonder about what the ideal distance and frequency and pace of running is to maximize longevity.  I have to think more than 5 miles a day, 8 minutes/mile, becomes counter productive.  There must be some balance between the benefits of exercise and the negative consequences of having to consume more calories.  I eat around 1700 cals/day, in a single meal.  I wouldn't want to increase my exercise intensity if i had to also increase calories or risk losing weight.  I feel like i am getting most of the benefits of running now, running 2 miles, 10 min/mile.  The most difficult part of exercise is getting over the obsession to always be improving.

[mccoy]

Barry, that amount of training sounds pretty balanced. On top of it I would just add some anaerobic training for the upper body, that might constitute  a longevity benefit, in terms of added skeletal muscle mass derived from stymulation of local IGF-1 and mTOR. 

[Geo]

16 hours ago, BarryR said:

I love running.  I run almost everyday.  But I run 2 miles.  I wonder about what the ideal distance and frequency and pace of running is to maximize longevity.  I have to think more than 5 miles a day, 8 minutes/mile, becomes counter productive.  There must be some balance between the benefits of exercise and the negative consequences of having to consume more calories.  I eat around 1700 cals/day, in a single meal.  I wouldn't want to increase my exercise intensity if i had to also increase calories or risk losing weight.  I feel like i am getting most of the benefits of running now, running 2 miles, 10 min/mile.  The most difficult part of exercise is getting over the obsession to always be improving.

Thanks BarryR.

Yes, exercise is health promoting only up to a point, and 60 miles per week of running is certainly past that point by a lot. But running competitively gives me joy and fulfillment, and I am willing to sacrifice some health for the sake of it.

There's indeed an obsessive aspect to improving in endurance sports. But then it becomes a philosophical question and a discussion of "ends": whether I should take up a non detrimental obsession like playing the guitar and give up competitive running.

Edited November 15, 2018 by Geo

[BarryR]

7 hours ago, Geo said:

There's indeed an obsessive aspect to improving in endurance sports. But then it becomes a philosophical question and a discussion of "ends": whether I should take up a non detrimental obsession like playing the guitar and give up competitive running.

Don’t take this personally because I don’t know anything about you, but from my own experience, trying to improve at running, or any sport, I think comes from a feeling of inferiority or lack about myself, and that I can prove myself to others by showing them how fast I can run.  Then I realized how enjoyable it is to run a ten-minute mile and not have any desire to push myself for faster times.

[mccoy]

Maybe it also depends on age. When a young man I really had no inferiority complex, but I enjoyed crushing it in the gym, ending up injurying myself. I just liked to lift heavier and heavier weights and seeing my strenght gains and go thru exhausting workouts. Just personal satisfaction.

[Genny]

On 11/15/2018 at 2:59 PM, mccoy said:

Maybe it also depends on age. When a young man I really had no inferiority complex, but I enjoyed crushing it in the gym, ending up injurying myself. I just liked to lift heavier and heavier weights and seeing my strenght gains and go thru exhausting workouts. Just personal satisfaction.

That's called "ego lifting."  You can absolutely get strength gains and 1RM gains without risking injury if you do it right.  Elgintensity's roasting of ego lifters on Youtube absolutely has made me more conscious than ever about my form!

My desire to do better has never had anything to do with other people.  I am not a good runner, personally, but I still like doing it, and my sweet spot is comfortable sub-60 10ks--a terrible time for anyone competitive, but totally sufficient for fitness for a woman, certainly.  In other measures, I try to stay at the 90th percentile for women 20-29--not the level of an elite person but of a very healthy person.  That's my goal for most of my biomarkers, too.  I want the blood pressure, cholesterol, etc, of a very healthy 19-year-old for as long as I can.

Walford's graph is definitely high on the absurd/goofiness scale, though.  Untrained runners do not run marathons well, PERIOD.  You cannot be a classic CRONie and train for a marathon.  Therefore the rest of the graph is garbage.

The idea of Paul or Meredith actually RUNNING is hilarious to me.  They participated in a 5k fun run "Run for a Cure" at a brisk walk and then congratulated themselves on a job impressively done.

Edited February 3, 2019 by Genny

[Gordo]

This guy seems to have found the secret to running:

https://medium.com/esquire/i-was-addicted-to-running-high-it-almost-cost-me-6dc539fb7ccd

 

[Genny]

Lol!

There are a couple of people with weirdly high lactate thresholds and no one knows why. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/the-running-blog/2013/aug/30/dean-karnazes-man-run-forever

[Jonnywallter]

Yoga slows down the process of oxidation which is the reason why we get old and die. Oxidation, ironically, is also the very process that keeps us alive. It refers to how the oxygen we breathe in is used in the cells to produce energy. And in this reaction, free radicals are released which is responsible for the gradual ‘corrosion’ of the body. What yoga eventually does to your physiology is that it slows your breath rate. It makes you a slow and deep breather. Thus decreasing the rate of oxidation happening. And makes you live a longer life. In this case, I suggest you a good mental and healthy pose of yoga here - https://verv.com/relax-your-mind-and-spirit-best-yoga-poses-for-meditation/

Edited May 30, 2019 by Jonnywallter

[mccoy]

3 hours ago, Jonnywallter said:

Yoga slows down the process of oxidation which is the reason why we get old and die. Oxidation, ironically, is also the very process that keeps us alive. It refers to how the oxygen we breathe in is used in the cells to produce energy. And in this reaction, free radicals are released which is responsible for the gradual ‘corrosion’ of the body. What yoga eventually does to your physiology is that it slows your breath rate. It makes you a slow and deep breather. Thus decreasing the rate of oxidation happening. And makes you live a longer life. In this case, I suggest you a good mental and healthy pose of yoga here - https://verv.com/relax-your-mind-and-spirit-best-yoga-poses-for-meditation/

Hi Jonnywallter, I believe that quite a few people in this forum practice yoga, I myself have been practicing it for the last 40 years, previously asanas and pranayama, now mainly meditation.

[Ron Put]

On 11/6/2018 at 12:50 AM, mccoy said:

...

Also, as you say, marathon runners must repenish calories, so would we still have CR? By other disucssions in this forum the answer seems to be no (judging on experiments on lab rodents).

...

 

Unless I am misunderstanding something, the only human study on the subject of CR and exercise I am aware of appears to find otherwise:

"In this study, we observed a metabolic adaptation over 24-hour in sedentary conditions and during sleep following 6-months of CR. The metabolic adaptation in the CREX group was similar to that observed in CR group, suggesting that energy deficit rather than CR itself is driving the decrease in energy expenditure. Importantly, the metabolic adaptations were closely paralleled by a drop in thyroid hormone plasma concentrations confirming the importance of the thyroid pathway as a determinant of energy metabolism⁴³. Of significance, the metabolic adaptation occurred in the first 3-months after intervention with no further adaptation at 6 months, even though weight loss continued in CR and CREX groups." 

(CR=25% diet restriction; CREX=12.5%CR+12.5% increase in energy expenditure)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2692623/