OMAD and protein / fiber / micronutrient intake

[sirtuin]

Right now, I'm experimenting with a one-meal-a-day regimen. I tend to feel better on a low-carb diet than the others that I've tried. While I don't think I have any major metabolic issues, beans, grains, sugars, and starches do tend to leave me on the foggy / bloated side post-consumption, while food like nuts, avocados, and olive oil are much closer to the nootropic anti-inflammatory end of the food spectrum for me. Every time I run the experiment, it's quite apparent how much better I feel and sleep on the lower-carb diet with elevated ketones. While my lipids look good, there is some concern over eating so much fat in a sitting (occasionally north of 200g for a meal on a 2700kcal activity day.)

The problem I'm seeing on cronometer is that my calcium intake is often lacking -- some days, it's only around 400 mg (dark leafy greens.) My protein intake is also on the lower side, at around 50-60g (nuts + eggs / meat), and fiber clocks in around 25g. This is about what I can fit into a reasonably huge dinner. If I space this out over an 8hr window or so, I can more or less double the numbers at a similar caloric intake with more food volume.

I'm curious if it would make sense to use something like a vegan protein powder to do a sort of low-carb veg-rich shake (with added fiber?) to boost the numbers, or if there are any other hacks / supplements / foods that come to mind to balance out this eating window / macro ratio. Or, if this is of little concern, assuming I'm lean and fit. Thoughts?

[mccoy]

Sirtuin:

• Calcium: there are some naturally Ca-rich mineral waters which we discussed in othere threads. they are a valuable aid as a Ca supplement, you should search your own market, I can only tell you what I found here in Italy
• Protein: I think a modest amount of plant-based isolated protein blended with soy milk with natural flavours (example, orange zest or skins) and a little stevia is a very pleasant drink I experimented. You can add psyllium powder to boost fiber content.

Yes, the main drawback of a single meal is the sheer bulk. I cannot do that, my stomach will stay bloated, my heartrate will increase exponentially and I would feel horrible. The benefits of a sigle day meal must surpass the drawback otherwise it's not worth it.

[sirtuin]

I hadn't considered mineral water, that could be a great tip. I'm surprised it wouldn't fall under the potentially hazardous umbrella of a calcium supplement, like the calcium carbonate you would find in say soy milk boasting "More calcium than milk!" (yikes) I get a decent amount of Ca from almonds and spinach, but it's debatable how much of that I'm able to absorb. I do supplement magnesium with my meal, which could tip things further to the lower side (although I've also read it paradoxically improves uptake.)

I have read that thyroid hormones can be among the largest disruptors for lipid balance wrt cardio health, where CR does tend to push things toward the lower side. With male hormones / thyroid activity in mind, are foods like soy & flax of any concern or are they largely seen as beneficial? As an alternative to plant-based isolated proteins, what's the consensus on gelatin / collagen as a low-methionine source of aminos and glycine?

This was an interesting study from a couple months ago, where whey protein (possibly a useful source of calcium and glutathione-boosting cysteine?) had a much different effect on mTOR than I would expect, while the other amino acids ratios are fairly similar to common plant-based protein options: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6466539/

[Sibiriak]

Michael Rae mentioned gelatin in the thread on methionine restriction:

 

Quote

 

In practice, a high-protein, low-methionine diet is one composed of a lot of non-grain vegetarian protein. All legume proteins are good, and lentils and favas are exceptionally noteworthy as being high %protein, low-Calorie, and unusually low-Met and low leucine even for a legume (see here and here on leucine moderation), per gram of protein and per Calorie. Dairy (aside from whey) is moderate in methionine; Quorn, despite being of vegetal source, is not very low — and not just because of its eggwhite content: the vegan version is ev is also pretty acceptable (certainly compared with meat).

Eggwhites, however, are very high-Met.
 
Additionally, tho' not enamored of vegans, gelatin is a very screwy protein, which contains no Trp and very little Met indeed; it is so messed up that it shouldn't be a major component of the diet (especially not if it isn't otherwise protein-packed), but if you add a small amount of supplemental Trp to gelatin or sugar-free Jell-O, the near absence of Met turns into a bonus.

https://www.crsociety.org/topic/13120-methionine-restriction-is-not-viable-in-humans/?tab=comments#comment-23622

 

 

 

 

 

[sirtuin]

Assuming the other 50-60g of protein in my diet contains tryptophan, would its absence be as relevant as the overall boost in glycine?

"The average adult human (70 kg; 30-50 years; sedentary) requires nearly 15 grams of glycine per day to synthesize collagen (12 g/d), non-collagen proteins (1 g/d), and other important compounds such as porphyrins (240 mg/d), purines (206 mg/d), creatine (420 mg/d), glutathione (567 mg/d), and bile salts (60 mg/d).^[4] However, glycine synthesis is limited to about 2.5 grams per day, suggesting that humans require about 12 grams of dietary glycine to satisfy daily metabolic requirements.^[4]"

[mccoy]

2 hours ago, sirtuin said:

I have read that thyroid hormones can be among the largest disruptors for lipid balance wrt cardio health, where CR does tend to push things toward the lower side. With male hormones / thyroid activity in mind, are foods like soy & flax of any concern or are they largely seen as beneficial?

Isoflavones are regarded as beneficial if intake is not excessive. The threshold is not well defined. One gallon soymilk per day has resulted in acute negative symptoms, whereas the equivalent of 15 grams of soy protein per day is regarded to be all right. Michael Rae has cautioned about flaxseed use, which can be substituted by chia seeds though. I eat both, since the lignans in flaxseed exhibit probably hormetic effects.

One of the largest pro vegan male bodybuilders, torre Washington, says anecdotally that he has been eating so many soy products without negative effects. He declares to be natural and probably is.

Isoflavones are believed to compete with androgens to saturate androgen receptors so their use is theoretically preventive against prostate cancer.

[mccoy]

4 hours ago, sirtuin said:

This was an interesting study from a couple months ago, where whey protein (possibly a useful source of calcium and glutathione-boosting cysteine?) had a much different effect on mTOR than I would expect, while the other amino acids ratios are fairly similar to common plant-based protein options: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6466539/

I've read the article (quickly) but the result baffles me. Phosphorylation of S6k1 (which triggers ribosomal protein synthesis) is a consequence of mTORC1 activation:

 

Now, the most known biochemical property of why proteins (at least, cow's whey protein) is that they are very rich in Leucine.

Leucine is probably the single most important factor in mTORC1 activation. So, a food rich in leucine which decreases S6K1 phosporylation is kind of an oxymoron.

Also, S6K1 appears downregulated in liver but upregulated in muscles:

Which should be a typical result of exercise, where muscles sequester Leucine after a workout and AMPKinase deregulates mTORC1 in teh liver and other organs.

Where the rats exercised? Did they move around more in response to more amminoacids? Why the result is different in different tissues? Is goat/sheep whey composition very different from cow's whey composition?

 

[Michael R]

Sirtuin, you're short on Ca and protein, and evidently not vegan since you eat meat; is the mind-numbingly obvious solution not milk or its fermented products?

[Matt]

There are better plant sources of calcium than spinach. See table 2 here: https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/70/3/543s/4714998 

[sirtuin]

11 hours ago, Matt said:

There are better plant sources of calcium than spinach. See table 2 here: https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/70/3/543s/4714998 

It's comical to see "Fruit punch with calcium citrate malate" in a serious academic paper on improving the nutrient density of a vegetarian diet. If that's going to make the list, why not just include "calcium tablets." Chinese spinach looks off the chart -- I wonder if that means there's a ton of oxalate, or if this is my solution. I don't think I've come across the stuff at my local grocery store.

[Sibiriak]

Sirtuin,   MR asks a good question: why eat meat and eggs, yet avoid (fermented) dairy foods?   One half cup of low-fat kefir, for example, would provide  around 5.5 g  protein and  nearly 200mg calcium.  http://lifewaykefir.com/products/plain-lowfat-kefir/

[sirtuin]

2 hours ago, Sibiriak said:

Sirtuin,   MR asks a good question: why eat meat and eggs, yet avoid (fermented) dairy foods?   One half cup of low-fat kefir, for example, would provide  around 5.5 g  protein and  nearly 200mg calcium.  http://lifewaykefir.com/products/plain-lowfat-kefir/

In general, I tend to avoid dairy and stick closer to a paleo-like diet. While my lipids look fine on a high fat diet, they don't look great on a high saturated fat diet. The simple trick that I found to achieve stellar lab work was to ditch the cheese, butter, and coconut oil. It was a simple trick that brought my LDL down into the 70s while eating a ketogenic diet. So, I've ended up with a mostly vegetable covered plate with a bit of seafood / lean meat / eggs since I find these much easier to digest than beans and grains. I don't eat a ton of meat, but it's enough to patch the hole that would exist if I was just trying to run around on broccoli and almonds. Kefir does look like the micronutrients would fit my goals, although I could do without the 12 grams of sugar (if I'm going to eat sugar, I'd prefer something like blueberries rather than lactose, galactose, etc.) Perhaps I'm being overly picky in my selection and something like calcium-carbonate-fortified almond milk would do the trick.

Thinking more about micronutrients -- do you one-meal-a-dayers make any effort to get sodium or potassium in during the fast (say if you're going to go for a run and lift weights?) I would imagine that a low-carb diet would benefit from a higher sodium intake, though it seems like a problem if you eat an entire day's sodium in a single sitting.

[Sibiriak]

 

Quote

I tend to avoid dairy and stick closer to a paleo-like diet. While my lipids look fine on a high fat diet, they don't look great on a high saturated fat diet.

 While I agree about  high-saturated fat diets,  I was only suggesting a very modest amount of kefir which would  add  only minimal saturated fat, while possibly having many other healthy properties (eg. anti-cancer effects).   Cf. Chris Kresser: Kefir: The Not-Quite-Paleo Superfood   https://chriskresser.com/kefir-the-not-quite-paleo-superfood/    

That 12g of carbohydrates  is for a full 240 ml of the Lifeway product,  not the half cup I suggested, but I can see how even 6g or less  might be unwelcome  in a low-carb diet. 

It should also be noted also that the polysaccharides in kefir ( polymeric carbohydrate molecules composed of long chains of monosaccharide units bound together by glycosidic linkages)  are very complex, with  multiple possible  health benefits:

Milk kefir: composition, microbial cultures, biological activities, and related products

Maria R. Prado et al.

Front Microbiol. 2015; 6: 1177. PMID: 26579086

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4626640/

 

Quote

The EPS [ exopolysaccharide] kefiran is produced by Lactobacillus kefiranofaciens (Kooiman, 1968; Wang et al., 2010) from kefir grains, which are composed of proteins, polysaccharides, and a complex symbiotic microbial mixture (Witthuhn et al., 2005; Jianzhong et al., 2009). These microorganisms grow in kefiran, which is a polysaccharide matrix consisting of glucose and galactose. Despite good kefiran production by L. kefiranofaciens alone, it has been observed that the addition of Saccharomyces sp. to the culture improves the net quantity of kefiran, illustrating the importance of the symbiosis between the bacteria and yeast that are present in kefir (Cheirsilp et al., 2003).

Lactic acid bacteria can synthesize homopolysaccharides or heteropolysaccharides. The synthesized homopolysaccharides are glucans or fructans, which are composed of only one type of monosaccharide (glucose or fructose, respectively; Van Hijum et al., 2006; Badel et al., 2011), whereas the heteropolysaccharides contain different types of monosaccharides in different proportions (mainly glucose, galactose, and rhamnose), (De Vuyst and Degeest, 1999; Ruas-Madiedo et al., 2002).

Similarly to lactic acid bacteria, Lactobacillus sp. also produces glucan and fructan. The homopolysaccharides show a much higher performance compared with heteropolysaccharide production (Welman and Maddox, 2003; Badel et al., 2011).

The heteropolysaccharides excreted by Lactobacillus delbrueckii, Lactobacillus bulgaricus, Lactobacillus rhamnosus, and Lactobacillus helveticus contain galactose, glucose, and rhamnose as the main monosaccharides, with other monosaccharides being present in smaller concentrations. They are also highly branched with different types of linkages, and their denominations are complex and generally dependent on the main monosaccharide (De Vuyst and Degeest, 1999; Badel et al., 2011).

Lactobacillus plantarum isolated from Tibetan kefir excretes EPS classified as heteropolysaccharides composed of galactose, glucose, and mannose. This EPS has the capacity/ability to reduce blood cholesterol and form a biofilm shape (Zhang et al., 2009; Wang et al., 2010).

Kefiran is an EPS classified as a heteropolysaccharide comprising glucose and galactose in high concentrations, and it is classified as a water-soluble glucogalactan, which makes it suitable to be used as an additive (Wang et al., 2008, 2010). Kefiran has excellent rheological properties and can significantly improve the viscosity of lacteous products by favoring and maintaining gel properties and avoiding the loss of water during storage (Rimada and Abraham, 2006). With respect to the biological activity of kefiran, several studies have demonstrated that this EPS can be used as a nutraceutical, as described in Table 3.

Table 3

Biological activity of kefiran.

Exopolysaccharide	Biological activity	Reference
Kefiran	Reduction of blood pressure induced by hypertension	Maeda et al., 2004
	Favors the activity of peritoneal macrophages
	Increase in peritoneal IgA	Duarte et al., 2006
	Antitumoral activity	Liu et al., 2002
	Antimicrobial activity	Rodrigues et al., 2005a
	Modulation of the intestinal immune system and protection of epithelial cells against Bacillus cereus exocellular factors	Medrano et al., 2008; Piermaria et al., 2010

 

Kefiran suppresses antigen-induced mast cell activation.

Furuno T¹, Nakanishi M.

Biol Pharm Bull. 2012;35(2):178-83. PMID:22293347

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22293347

 

Quote

Abstract

Kefir is a traditional fermented milk beverage produced by kefir grains in the Caucasian countries. Kefiran produced by Lactobacillus kefiranofaciens in kefir grains is an exopolysaccharide having a repeating structure with glucose and galactose residues in the chain sequence and has been suggested to exert many health-promoting effects such as immunomodulatory, hypotensive, hypocholesterolemic activities. Here we investigated the effects of kefiran on mast cell activation induced by antigen. Pretreatment with kefiran significantly inhibited antigen-induced Ca(2+) mobilization, degranulation, and tumor necrosis factor-α production in bone marrow-derived mast cells (BMMCs) in a dose-dependent manner. The phosphorylation of Akt, glycogen synthase kinase 3β, and extracellular signal-regulated kinases (ERKs) after antigen stimulation was also suppressed by pretreatment of BMMCs with kefiran. These findings indicate that kefiran suppresses mast cell degranulation and cytokine production by inhibiting the Akt and ERKs pathways, suggesting an anti-inflammatory effect for kefiran.

 

 

Quote

Sirtuin:   ...whey protein (possibly a useful source of calcium and glutathione-boosting cysteine?)

Btw,  methionine moderation implies cysteine moderation as well, if I understand correctly.   Michael Rae:

Quote

No Cheating with Cysteine
As I've noted earlier, the rodent MetR studies involve diets that are not only extremely low in Met, bu contain no Cys at all. This turns out to be quite important. Some people have wondered if you might be able to get the benefits of MetR while minimizing the side-effects by consuming some Cys. Instead, consumption of Cys clearly impairs the metabolic effects of MetR.  

https://www.crsociety.org/topic/13120-methionine-restriction-is-not-viable-in-humans/?tab=comments#comment-23622

[Todd Allen]

Bone in sardines are high in calcium although I don't know how readily it is absorbed.  Put the sardines on a bed of leafy greens and top with a tahini based dressing or parmesan cheese.

[mccoy]

On 5/16/2019 at 8:32 AM, sirtuin said:

While my lipids look fine on a high fat diet, they don't look great on a high saturated fat diet

On top of sibiriak's observations, I would add that there are many nonfat dairy products to which the above drawback would not apply. 

[Clinton]

On ‎5‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 8:20 AM, mccoy said:

Michael Rae has cautioned about flaxseed use, which can be substituted by chia seeds though. I eat both, since the lignans in flaxseed exhibit probably hormetic effects.

 

McCoy,

Can you link to or describe what MR's caution wrt flaxseed use is?

Thanks - Clinton

(Based on the micronutrients it seems to be fantastic)

[PeteM]

I try to keep my protein up to at 60 g/day by drinking chocolate flavored whey isolate, at 24 g per glass. This regimen after reading two small, but well constructed experiments with persons over 65, who hadn't been getting recommended protein. After 7 months of at least 80 g of daily protein, the experiment group had larger biceps with no additional exercise. (Strength was no greater until strength training was done) At 84, I want to remain strong to help avoid falls and other age related problems. 

[Sibiriak]

Quote

Mccoy:  the equivalent of 15 grams of soy protein per day is regarded to be all right.

 

Hi Mccoy,   When you have a moment, could  cite the source for that 15 gram limit?   Just curious...

[mccoy]

On 7/2/2019 at 4:43 PM, Clinton said:

McCoy,

Can you link to or describe what MR's caution wrt flaxseed use is?

Thanks - Clinton

(Based on the micronutrients it seems to be fantastic)

Clinton, unfortunately I tried but I wasn't able after a few attempts to find the thread, which was about omega 3s, if my memory serves me right. The caution was about the very high amount of lignans in this food.

[mccoy]

On 7/3/2019 at 10:46 AM, Sibiriak said:

 

Hi Mccoy,   When you have a moment, could  cite the source for that 15 gram limit?   Just curious...

Sibiriak, I remember an article which revised the issue, I did some research because I've been eating lots of soy products when 99% vegan. That very general reccomandation should also be contained int Jack Norris site. Afterwards I also came across another article which ruled out significant isoflavones content in isolated soy protein.

I used to eat more than that. 

But I'll see if I can retrieve those papers.

[mccoy]

Nutrients. 2016 Dec; 8(12): 754.

Published online 2016 Nov 24. doi: 10.3390/nu8120754

PMCID: PMC5188409

PMID: 27886135

Soy and Health Update: Evaluation of the Clinical and Epidemiologic Literature

Mark Messina

 

Quote

Each gram of soy protein in soybeans and traditional soyfoods is associated with approximately 3.5 mg of isoflavones [89]. Consequently, one serving of a traditional soyfood, such as 100 g of tofu or 250 mL soymilk, typically provides about 25 mg isoflavones. In more refined products, such as ISP, as much as 80% to 90% of the isoflavone content can be lost as a result of processing [68,90,91].

...

In any event, it is clear that isoflavones should not be equated with the hormone estrogen. The literature is replete with clinical examples of differences between these two molecules. For example, isoflavones do not stimulate the vaginal maturation index [109] or increase C-reactive protein (CRP) [103] whereas estrogen does [103,109]. Furthermore, isoflavones may exert potentially-relevant hormone-independent physiological effects [110]. Therefore, classification only related to their hormonal activity may be an incomplete characterization [111]. Finally, not only should isoflavones not be equated with estrogen but soyfoods should not be equated with isoflavones. The soybean, like all foods, is a collection of many biologically active molecules [112].

 

[Clinton]

1 minute ago, mccoy said:

Clinton, unfortunately I tried but I wasn't able after a few attempts to find the thread, which was about omega 3s, if my memory serves me right. The caution was about the very high amount of lignans in this food.

Thanks for looking, McCoy - I thought maybe you forgot ;-)

I am only consuming 2TBSP per day of ground flaxseeds and I am planning on maintaining this amount - I think this should be 'safe' regardless.

Since you and I are quite interested in similar body composition goals I'll mention this:

There are seemingly endless details that one could concern themselves with regarding optimal health & longevity; at this point I'm (only) focussing on:

• optimal nutrition (ensuring RDA levels of all micronutrients, optimal O3:O6 & Cu:Zn ratios, fiber, etc.) (and adding in a few supplements almost identical to Michael Rae's supplement regimen https://www.longecity.org/forum/stacks/stack/122-michaels-tiered-supplement/ however I adjust doses based on my own micronutrient intake & I also take more creatine - at least 5g per day, I also take LEF's 'super K' vitamin K which is fairly different than the K2-MK4 supplement MR takes)
• 8-16 time restricted feeding
• plenty of resistance training to maintain what I consider extremely high strength levels (i.e. can (now!!) do 7 chin-ups or dips now with bodyweight plus 90lbs on weighted belt) with intermittent CR (as required) to achieve & maintain zero visceral fat
• My diet is what I would describe as paleo-ish with some whole grains (rolled oats or steel-cut oats) and I will allow dairy; I only avoid milk in Canada because I find it very difficult to find milk that has not been fortified with vitamin A, D2, etc..  If I could just find unfortified milk I'd be all for it; considering using kefir instead in my smoothies.  So having said my diet is 'paleolithic' plus some whole grains and dairy, maybe it should be more accurately described as 'neolithic'  ;-)
• My diet could probably use more variety but regardless of chaos in life, I ensure I consume plenty of kale, spinach, carrots, low-sodium V8 juice, almonds, walnuts, ground flaxseed, blueberries, raspberries, sardines, eggs, whey protein, rolled oats, bananas ...

That's it for me - at least for the next few years.  I am very intrigued with Dean's excellent thread on CE as well as hormetic stressors such as sulphoraphane; not to mention intermittent rapamycin w metformin (the 'Koschei' formula), but I am not implementing any of these, for now at least.

 

Best Regards,

Clinton

[mccoy]

The above article gives a useful conversion from soy protein to isoflavones. The following article seems to be the one I saw tiem ago:

 

Nutrients. 2018 Jan; 10(1): 43.

Published online 2018 Jan 5. doi: 10.3390/nu10010043

PMCID: PMC5793271

PMID: 29304010

Soy, Soy Foods and Their Role in Vegetarian Diets

Gianluca Rizzo^1,* and Luciana Baroni²

 

Quote

6. Food Safety

The use of soy in Japanese and Chinese diets has a traditional usage history of safety that was recently extended to Western countries [121]. However, some studies raised concerns regarding soy foods use, such as tofu, on cognitive outcomes [282,498,499]. In a short term dietary intervention study, high soy diet versus low soy diet have no adverse effect on cognitive function and mood in healthy young students [500]. Achievement of some level of college education was non different between soy or cow milk formula fed in infancy [432].

Daily administration of 54 mg of genistein in aglycone form to menopausal women for 3 years did not affect thyroid function [406]. Moreover, 200 mg of isoflavones daily administration for 2 years did not influence TSH [501]. Isoflavones showed an overall good profile of safety for thyroid function [413].

In 2015 an EFSA panel concluded that the intake of 35–150 mg per day of isoflavones from supplements or foods does not have adverse effect on sex hormones-responsive tissues such as breast and uterus or thyroidal gland up to 2.5 years duration of intake [502].

Clinical and prospective epidemiological data show safety of use during isoflavone exposure in women [503,504]. In a double blind randomized intervention study of 12 months, soy intake did not worsen breast fibroglandular tissue density in breast cancer patients previously exposed to antineoplastic treatments or in women at high risk [440]. Moreover, exposure to isoflavones or soy protein in breast cancer patients was associated with reduced mortality and cancer recurrence in women with ER(+) and ER(−) breast cancers [318,349]. No contraindication for isoflavone intake in women under treatment with tamoxifen or anastrozole has been observed [505,506,507], rather, soy consumption enhanced efficacy of anticancer treatments [508,509].

 

So. 54/3.5 = 15 grams soy protein

(35 to 150) mg/d = 10 to 43 grams soy protein 

[mccoy]

17 minutes ago, Clinton said:

That's it for me - at least for the next few years.  I am very intrigued with Dean's excellent thread on CE as well as hormetic stressors such as sulphoraphane; not to mention intermittent rapamycin w metformin (the 'Koschei' formula), but I am not implementing any of these, for now at least.

Clinton, your diet sounds pretty good since it's associated to an high-intensity regime of resistance exercise. It wouldn't be so good in a sedentary context of course. I can imagine it minimizes adiposity.

By the way, hormetic stressors are many in foods, including in flaxseeds. Many xenohormetic properties are exhibited by the various spices and seasoning herbs. That's why I adopted Dean's 20 spices scheme and expanded it to 30 spices daily.

2 tbsps flaxseed per day should not constitute an issue at all.

[Clinton]

Update: I’m going to substitute the milk with kefir; it’s got the minerals cal & mag I want plus probiotic.  And I don’t concern myself with saturated fat intake (the rest of my entire diet is nearly absent of sat fat and next to zero refined sugar).