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Mark Nederland

New to CR: some random questions.

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Hi I am new to CR and have some random questions. I have read some of the books and articles on this website but as I am not a native English speaker sometimes it is a bit difficult, so forgive me if these questions are already answered somewhere else. Any help on 1 or more of my questions is helpful:

- I would be interested in personal values for the substances measured in Crono meter from CR people.

- Do fruit and vegetables that have been frozen retain the same nutrient values?

- Which glucose meters do you use? Or none?

- I cannot get this clear (because it probably is not): is it better to fast long periods in a day or is it all about restricting calories. I am asking because CR is easy for me but fasting is not. The CR-way and The Longevity diet seems to have different opinions about that?

Thanks.

 

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8 hours ago, Mark Nederland said:

 

- Do fruit and vegetables that have been frozen retain the same nutrient values?

- Which glucose meters do you use? Or none?

- I cannot get this clear (because it probably is not): is it better to fast long periods in a day or is it all about restricting calories. I am asking because CR is easy for me but fasting is not. The CR-way and The Longevity diet seems to have different opinions about that?

Thanks.

 

"- I would be interested in personal values for the substances measured in Crono meter from CR people."

I tracked everything I ate for a year, but honestly I didn't get much value from that and don't recommend it.  Eating a diverse, mostly plant based whole food diet will ensure you get all of the macro and micro nutrients you need plus a boat load of phytonutrients, fiber, and BAT activating foods (see Dean's list of modifiable and [nonmodifiable] factors associated with increased brown/beige adipose tissue and/or thermogenesis).

 

"Which glucose meters do you use? Or none?"

I haven't used one in a while, but when I was actively tracking it, I was using TrueResult (now discontinued) and the Bayer Contour (its inexpensive, has great reviews, and its a reputable brand).

"- I cannot get this clear (because it probably is not): is it better to fast long periods in a day or is it all about restricting calories. I am asking because CR is easy for me but fasting is not. The CR-way and The Longevity diet seems to have different opinions about that?"

Personally I don't think just restricting calories, in and of itself, is all that beneficial, and certainly it is not a case of "the more the better".  That said, there are almost endless things you can do for longevity and intermittent fasting is one of them.  You already mentioned reading the CR-Way so you probably know this already - most of the book has nothing to do with "CR" per se. Paul does not recommend BMI's below 20 (anymore) and people doing severe CR have had many problems, especially with bone loss and fractures (osteoporosis).  I do a lot of different things,  you can click to my profile for a more detailed description if interested.  There are lots of people who haven't bought into the fasting thing as well, but I think the scientific evidence certainly favors in the very least, a limited window for eating that gells with one's circadian rhythm - a major problem would be eating a lot late at night - leaving blood sugar levels high all night long.  I'm not convinced that one meal a day is a good idea, personally I eat two meals a day, and only eat during a fixed 6-7 hour window.

 

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Hi Mark!

Gordo is giving his personal views -- but much better is the video -- actually posted by Gordo -- given by Prof Luigi Fontana, who is the head of the department of Nutrition at WUSTL .  Luigi is an expert researcher on Calorie Restriction -- and has studied several us long term CR practitioners:

 

.

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On 7/10/2019 at 4:06 PM, Saul said:

better is the video --

Nice vid share; it starts getting good/relevant at ~8:25.

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On 7/10/2019 at 10:29 PM, Gordo said:

I would be interested in personal values for the substances measured in Crono meter from CR people

They vary across individuals, but usually CR starts at 10% protein, and100% RDA of essential amminoacids, then fats and glucose vary depending on people and the dietary philosophy they follow. Fat may vary from 20% to 60% and carbs vary accordingly. As discussed in another thread, very low fat is impractical and possibly damaging to health.

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On 7/10/2019 at 2:01 PM, Mark Nederland said:

Do fruit and vegetables that have been frozen retain the same nutrient values?

That depends, for example you cannot obtain sulphoraphane from frozen broccoli.

I rely upon the cronometer values of frozen vegetables. For example, micronutrients are huge even in  frozen spinach

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On 7/10/2019 at 2:01 PM, Mark Nederland said:

Which glucose meters do you use? Or none?

I use Aviva Accuchek. It's pretty good. I'd like to get one of those continos glucometers, but here in Europe the receiver is 1300 Euro and the transmitters are about 500 Euros for a one month replacement. The latter would constitute the equivalent of a mortgage.

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On 7/10/2019 at 2:01 PM, Mark Nederland said:

is it better to fast long periods in a day or is it all about restricting calories. I am asking because CR is easy for me but fasting is not.

My strong and reasoned belief is that it depends on individuals. Actually, narrow feeding windows may be detrimental to health, according to Valter Longo (possible gallstones and increased CVD hazard) . But some people may benefit from it, especially the insuline resistant ones.

If you prefer simple CR I'd go for it, maybe with occasional fasting when you don't feel like eating.

Edited by mccoy

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Quote

Mccoy:  ... you cannot obtain sulphoraphane from frozen broccoli.

 

That's not entirely correct.  True,  most frozen broccoli is blanched prior to freezing  and the high heat destroys the myrosinase enzyme needed to form sulforaphane .  However:

1)Lower blanching temperatures preserve most of the myrosinase.

Quote

...researchers experimented with blanching broccoli at slightly lower temperatures instead of at 86ºC, the current industry standard. When they used a temperature of 76ºC, 82 percent of the enzyme myrosinase was preserved without compromising food safety and quality.

https://aces.illinois.edu/news/illinois-scientists-put-cancer-fighting-power-back-frozen-broccoli

 

2) If you  eat the broccoli along with some other raw cruciferous source of myrosinase,  the  glucoraphanin in the broccoli will yield sulforaphane.  Adding just a bit of powdered mustard seeds or daikon radish will do the trick.

https://nutritionfacts.org/2016/02/09/how-to-cook-broccoli/

 

3) Most interestingly,  if you eat cruciferous vegetables regularly, it may be that your own gut bacteria will be able  to metabolize glucoraphanin into sulforaphane.  (This is an area of ongoing research.)

 
Human Gut Bacterial Communities Are Altered by Addition of Cruciferous Vegetables to a Controlled Fruit- and Vegetable-Free Diet1–3
Fei Li, et al.   J Nutr. 2009 Sep
PMID: 19640972

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2728691/

 

Quote
Epidemiologic studies have shown that there is an inverse association between the consumption of cruciferous vegetables and risk of cancer, especially cancers of the digestive tract, bladder, prostate, and lung (13). In a meta-analysis, Kohlmeier et al. (4) concluded that cruciferous vegetables confer a protective benefit against cancer after controlling for the effects of overall vegetable intake. At least part of the protective effect of cruciferous vegetables is hypothesized to be due to their relatively high content of fiber and phytochemicals such as glucosinolates. Dietary fiber can be fermented by gut bacteria to yield SCFA and other metabolites that suppress the growth of tumor cells (5,6). Isothiocyanates (ITC),6 one group of hydrolysis products of glucosinolates, have been shown to have anticarcinogenic properties (79). The enzyme myrosinase (EC 3.2.1.147), which is present in Brassica plant cells, catalyzes the hydrolysis of glucosinolates to ITC.
 
Plant myrosinases can be deactivated by cooking; however, certain bacteria residing in the human gut have myrosinase-like activity and can metabolize glucosinolates. Thus, humans depend on gut bacteria to convert glucosinolates to ITC when cooked cruciferous vegetables are consumed. The importance of gut bacteria in producing ITC was elucidated in a previous feeding study that showed that urinary ITC excretion after cruciferous vegetable consumption decreased significantly when participants were pretreated with antibiotics and bowel cleansing (10). In in vitro incubations of fecal or bacterial samples with glucosinolates, several gut bacteria species have been found to degrade glucosinolates (1117). Thus, not only the amount of cruciferous vegetables consumed but also gut bacterial composition may determine exposure to bioactive ITC and ultimately affect cancer risk.
 
 
Myrosinase-dependent and –independent formation and control of isothiocyanate products of glucosinolate hydrolysis (2015)
PMID: 26500669
 
 
Quote

Abstract

Brassicales contain a myrosinase enzyme that hydrolyzes glucosinolates to form toxic isothiocyanates (ITC), as a defense against bacteria, fungi, insects and herbivores including man. Low levels of ITC trigger a host defense system in mammals that protects them against chronic diseases. Because humans typically cook their brassica vegetables, destroying myrosinase, there is a great interest in determining how human microbiota can hydrolyze glucosinolates and release them, to provide the health benefits of ITC. ITC are highly reactive electrophiles, binding reversibly to thiols, but accumulating and causing damage when free thiols are not available. We found that addition of excess thiols released protein-thiol-bound ITC, but that the microbiome supports only poor hydrolysis unless exposed to dietary glucosinolates for a period of days. These findings explain why 3–5 servings a week of brassica vegetables may provide health effects, even if they are cooked.

 

 
Edited by Sibiriak

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2 hours ago, Sibiriak said:

If you  eat the broccoli along with some other raw cruciferous source of myrosinase,  the  glucoraphanin in the broccoli will yield sulforaphane.  Adding just a bit of powdered mustard seeds or daikon radish will do the trick.

So according to your sources myrosinase is destroyed by the cooking process before freezing and not by freezing itself and glucoraphanin is left intact.

Well, at this point frozen broccoli equals cooked broccoli and an external source of myrosinase as you say will indeed provide sulphoraphane. So far so good!

I'm going to look for mustard seeds powder, so far I've left behind this scheme, hopefully the seeds are raw and not toasted otherwise they'll be bereft of myrosinase ...

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On 7/12/2019 at 7:45 PM, Kenton said:

Nice vid share; it starts getting good/relevant at ~8:25.

These were my notes:

13:44 Talks about calorie restriction studies in primates

25:30 talks about CALERIE study in humans 29:02 specifically mentions the CR Society and shows a before/after pic and biomarkers of one member

36:55 talks about the importance of increasing adiponectin and especially the importance of reduced core body temperature as a biomarker for longevity

38:00 skeletal muscle profile on CR, importance of downregulation of IGF-1

43:40 Side effects of chronic severe CR - how to know if you are overdoing CR

44:30 It is NOT TRUE that the more CR the better. Talks about study showing how 40% CR did not result in increased longevity for 2/3rds of the subtypes of mice tested. 20% CR is optimal for many strains of mice.  Biomarkers are key for determining what the optimal CR level is.   You must have sufficient energy to promote longevity.

46:15 Used to think it was just about the calories, but now we know that is NOT true.  Composition of diet is important, meal timing is important - CR with eating all day does not result in longevity in mice (50:00)

51:10 Discusses ongoing human intermittent fasting clinical trial

53:40 Importance of low protein / methionine restriction for longevity independent of CR (blocks tumor development)

59:25 You should eat around 10% protein ("a calorie is not a calorie", "stay away from low carb or ketogenic diets")

1:04:20 Talks about the gut microbiome.  Diet reliably and rapidly changes the gut microbiome, protein intake and fiber are key, the more diversity of vegetables you eat the better your gut microbiome, which results in reduced inflamation (related to short chain fatty acids). Eat legumes, whole grains, and lots of vegetables.

1:10:50 Your gut microbiome impacts your physiologic response to CR

1:13:00 Describes other pieces of the health/longevity puzzle he will talk about in a future lecture: exercise, breathing and rate of respiration, sleep, meditation, phytochemicals, cognitive training

1:18:00 Future of medicine is prevention.  Reducing mental stress, reducing sedentary lifestyle, reducing excessive calorie intake, and eliminating poor diets are key.

Edited by Gordo

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On 7/10/2019 at 7:42 PM, Dean Pomerleau said:

FYI - Luigi left WUSTL for University of Sydney a couple years ago

Hi Dean!

Do you know what his position is in Sydney?  Is he the head of the Department of Nutrition in the medical school?  And is he continuing his research on human CR?

  --  Saul

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1 minute ago, Saul said:

Hi Dean!

Do you know what his position is in Sydney?  Is he the head of the Department of Nutrition in the medical school?  And is he continuing his research on human CR?

  --  Saul

Here is a crazy idea Saul. How about clicking on the link I posted and you quoted to find out for yourself the answer to your question. 

--Dean 

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Hi again!

I followed the link that you posted; indeed, Luigi is indeed continuing his research.

  --  Saul

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