Mushroom supplements to boost immune system

[Ron Put]

17 hours ago, Gordo said:

The pic is of shiitake mushrooms, you are probably better off just eating the shiitake mushrooms and maybe some garlic to go with it too.

I agree with Gordo. Better to eat the whole mushroom:

"Active hexose correlated compound, or AHCC, is a proprietary medicinal mushroom extract intended to strengthen the immune system. In the past, the formula was considered a trade secret of the Japanese manufacturer, so we don’t know for sure what’s in it other than a combination of several species of Basidiomycete mushrooms, including shiitake (which has been shown to have anti-cancer effects).
...

Until we know more about whether AHCC works as advertised, I suggest that your sister-in-law consider the mushrooms I recommend to cancer patients for their proven immune-enhancing and anti-cancer effects:

Turkey Tail (Trametes versicolor), is a common medicinal mushroom shown to have anticancer effects in ongoing research in this country. Use liquid or encapsulated extracts.

Maitake (Grifola frondosa) is an edible mushroom known in the U.S. as “hen of the woods” because in appearance it resembles the fluffed tail feathers of a nesting hen. In addition to its anti-cancer, anti-viral and immune-enhancing properties, maitake may also help reduce blood pressure and blood sugar.

Reishi (Ganoderma lucidum) is too bitter to eat but is widely available in teabags, capsules and liquid extracts. Animal studies have shown that reishi improves immune function and inhibits the growth of some malignant tumors; it is also a natural anti-inflammatory agent.

Agaricus blazei (Agaricus brasiliensis) contains beta glucans, a group of polysaccharides (complex sugars) believed responsible for this mushroom’s immune-boosting effects. Research has shown that Agaricus has anti-tumor and anti-viral activity, as well as moderating effects on blood sugar and cholesterol. Oncologists in both Japan and Brazil use this mushroom in treatment protocols. It is sold in the U.S. in dried form as well as in extracts."

https://www.drweil.com/health-wellness/body-mind-spirit/cancer/mushrooms-against-cancer/

[Mike41]

 

11 hours ago, Matt said:

I have that brand of AHCC but only keep it at hand for when I think I need it. I frequently take beta-glucan from NOW Foods (taking 5 capsules per day right now ) as AHCC can be a bit expensive. 

Here's a bit more information from a couple of articles I wrote on AHCC and Beta-Glucan for immunity. 🙂  

http://www.crvitality.com/2018/07/ahcc-benefits-and-side-effects/

http://www.crvitality.com/2019/01/beta-glucan-vs-ahcc/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6942843/. 

A recent review of Ahcc. I was a bit disappointed although it might help, but just not enough good research. Mostly mouse studies

Edited March 6, 2020 by Mike41

[Mike41]

BTW wouldn’t plain old oats and barley be immune enhancing? It would seem so. After all they are good sources of beta glucans

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30049632

As for mushroom consumption I thought this article was helpful as to how Much?

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/19/well/eat/what-is-the-health-and-nutritional-value-of-mushrooms.html?referringSource=articleShare

Edited March 6, 2020 by Mike41

[Shezian]

thanks for all the information very helpful. 

cheers

Edited March 6, 2020 by Shezian

[Shezian]

3 hours ago, Mike41 said:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6942843/. 

A recent review of Ahcc. I was a bit disappointed although it might help, but just not enough good research. Mostly mouse studies

 

Edited March 6, 2020 by Shezian

[Shezian]

Thought l would write my experience with taking mushroom supplements for 2 months. I started taking these to increase my natural killer cells and it worked a treat. The results of my last blood test showed all my white blood cells within the normal range. Not sure if its because of the mushroom supplements and the garlic supplements l took, but it was great news. On the negative side, l noticed a few weeks back my face complexion looked a bit yellow, and have now decided to stop taking them for a month to see if my complexion will go back to normal,  I hope l haven't damaged my liver. So supplements seemed to benefit for immunity, but with possible unwanted side effects. 

The breakdown of these supplements are per tablet: (I took one per day)

Shitake 2g

Reishi 1g

Cordyceps 1g

Snow fungus 1g 

Turkey tail 500mg

 

 

[Ron Put]

11 hours ago, Shezian said:

Thought l would write my experience with taking mushroom supplements for 2 months....

 

I am glad your numbers are better. Whether the supplements helped in your case is another matter. I take a gram of turkey tail on most days and eat mushrooms (portabella, shitake, oyster, maitake, etc.) a few times a week, in much larger quantities than what's on your list.

Reishi is the only mushroom in your list I am aware of for which there is some evidence that it may cause liver damage after prolonged exposure, but if I recall the study, it was at larger doses and over 90 days. I know nothing about Snow Fungus.

[Shezian]

Can l ask why you take Turkey Tail and how much do you take daily?

I am not  trying  Maitake 600mg and Beta Glucan supplements. Do you have any knowledge on these?

 

 

[Ron Put]

On 4/23/2020 at 6:13 PM, Shezian said:

Can l ask why you take Turkey Tail and how much do you take daily?

I am not  trying  Maitake 600mg and Beta Glucan supplements. Do you have any knowledge on these?

Based on what I've read, I am fairly confident that some mushrooms are beneficial to health, so I consume them on most days.

Turkey Tail is best taken by capsules, since to some the taste is rather unpleasant (I take 2 capsules of 1g each nowadays, but used to take powdered mushrooms, from a seller in Oregon, I believe).

Here is some quick info:

Turkey Tail Mushrooms For Cancer Treatment?

"Researchers at the University of Minnesota and Bastyr University conducted the study in women with stages I-III breast cancer who had completed radiation therapy or chemotherapy. Results showed that immune function was enhanced in the women who took daily doses of turkey tail in pill form. (The actual product used in the study was Host Defense Turkey Tail mushroom from Fungi Perfecti.) The researchers reported that the improved immune response was dose dependent and that none of the subjects suffered any adverse effects."

If you need convincing, see this: FDA Approves Bastyr Turkey Tail Trial for Cancer Patients (it's nowadays approved treatment, but I don't have time to search for it. It also works for dogs).

Weil also mentions maitake (I buy these fresh from Whole Foods, they are rather tasty, to me at least :)

"Maitake (Grifola frondosa) is an edible mushroom known in the United States as “hen of the woods” because it resembles the fluffed tail feathers of a nesting hen. In addition to its anti-cancer, anti-viral and immune-enhancing properties, maitake may also reduce blood pressure and blood sugar."

Edited April 25, 2020 by Ron Put

[drewab]

On 2/27/2020 at 10:57 AM, Thomas G said:

Don't most people who practice CR have lower than normal white blood cells? And is that necessarily a bad thing?

It is certainly true for me. Out of curiosity I looked back to several blood tests I have had done over the past 6 months and this was my WBC count. The range indicated is 4.0-11.0 at the lab I go to.

• April 2020 - 4.5 (borderline low)
• Late January 2020 - 2.8 (below range)
• Early January 2020 - 3.4 (below range)
• December 2019 - 3.3 (below range)

Is this necessarily a bad thing? I'm not entirely sure but I do know that it's very common amongst CRON-ies and seems fairly common amongst those on a plant-based diet. The other biomarkers regularly low on my bloodwork is my platelet count, as well as testosterone. As for the topic of consuming mushrooms, I regularly use them in a culinary sense and have been gifted a lot of products from Four Sigmatic (mushroom coffee extracts) for Christmas. While I have consumed a variety of their non-caffeinated products including their lion's mane, chaga, and reishi, as well as their caffeinated mushroom coffee, green tea, and cocoa mix, it is not something I would recommend to purchase.  On a side note, you know you're a bit different when people buy you 6 boxes of mushroom coffee for Christmas. 

[Ron Put]

3 hours ago, drewab said:

It is certainly true for me. Out of curiosity I looked back to several blood tests I have had done over the past 6 months and this was my WBC count. The range indicated is 4.0-11.0 at the lab I go to....

I just looked at my WBC count and it's 4.6. Three years earlier, which is before I started reducing calories and eating within an ~8hr window, my WBC was 5.6. My BMI was around 20 three years ago and it's 19 today. So, it appears that CR lowers WBC count.

WBC at the lower end appear beneficial to longevity. You can plug in various numbers and see how it impacts your predicted Phenotypic Age based on the Levine spreadsheet I posted a while back.

[Shezian]

On 4/25/2020 at 11:23 PM, drewab said:

It is certainly true for me. Out of curiosity I looked back to several blood tests I have had done over the past 6 months and this was my WBC count. The range indicated is 4.0-11.0 at the lab I go to.

• April 2020 - 4.5 (borderline low)
• Late January 2020 - 2.8 (below range)
• Early January 2020 - 3.4 (below range)
• December 2019 - 3.3 (below range)

Is this necessarily a bad thing? I'm not entirely sure but I do know that it's very common amongst CRON-ies and seems fairly common amongst those on a plant-based diet. The other biomarkers regularly low on my bloodwork is my platelet count, as well as testosterone. As for the topic of consuming mushrooms, I regularly use them in a culinary sense and have been gifted a lot of products from Four Sigmatic (mushroom coffee extracts) for Christmas. While I have consumed a variety of their non-caffeinated products including their lion's mane, chaga, and reishi, as well as their caffeinated mushroom coffee, green tea, and cocoa mix, it is not something I would recommend to purchase.  On a side note, you know you're a bit different when people buy you 6 boxes of mushroom coffee for Christmas. 

Thanks so much for sharing your results. Was your doctor ever concerned about your low WBC? How old are you?  

Mushroom coffee. Never heard of it before.  Interesting to see your WBC, so it seems it can fluctuate a fair bit. Good to know l am not the only one.  It concerned me as l was catching more colds than normal. Every few months l was getting a sore throat or felt sinus build up. So for 3 months, l increased my calories, stopped intense exercise, (recommend by my doctor),  and gained weight, had mushrooms, zinc and garlic supplants daily,  and my bloods have improved. Now l would like to lose the weight  l gained, hopefully the colds and sore throats will not return.  

[Shezian]

On 4/26/2020 at 3:15 AM, Ron Put said:

I just looked at my WBC count and it's 4.6. Three years earlier, which is before I started reducing calories and eating within an ~8hr window, my WBC was 5.6. My BMI was around 20 three years ago and it's 19 today. So, it appears that CR lowers WBC count.

WBC at the lower end appear beneficial to longevity. You can plug in various numbers and see how it impacts your predicted Phenotypic Age based on the Levine spreadsheet I posted a while back.

It seems increases calories also increases WBC. The doctor said l had some sore of virus, hence why l had lower natural killer cells and it will go up over time. He also said if they don't go up we would need to do extra investigation, and these fluctuates happen more in the younger people.  But in the end it does seem more prevalent amongst us calorie restrictors. 

[Ron Put]

On 4/27/2020 at 6:00 PM, Shezian said:

It seems increases calories also increases WBC....

I just came across a study showing the relationship of sleep deprivation and WBC (and it's not a good thing):

Sleep restriction increases white blood cells, mainly neutrophil count, in young healthy men: A pilot study

Objectives:

This study examines the effects of sleep restricted to four hours for three consecutive nights on blood parameters, known to be associated with cardiovascular risk, in young healthy men.

Material and methods:

Eight young healthy men (age 24.5 ± 3.3 years) were studied in the sleep restricted group. Nine young healthy men (age 24 ± 2 years) were included in the control group and spent the days and nights in the sleep lab, while sleeping eight hours/night. One baseline night was followed by three nights of sleep restriction to four hours and by one recovery night of eight hours. Blood samplings were performed after the baseline night and after the third night of sleep restriction or without restriction for the control group.

Results:

A significant increase in white blood cells (WBC) (5.79 ± 1.05 vs. 6.89 ± 1.31 10³ cell/μl, p = 0.03), and neutrophils (3.17 ± 0.69 vs 4.24 ± 0.97 10³ cell/μl, p = 0.01) was observed after the third night of sleep restriction. Other blood parameters were not affected. No significant variation was observed in the control group.

Conclusion:

Sleep restriction affected WBC count, mainly neutrophils, considered as risk factor for cardiovascular disease. Stress induced by the short term sleep restriction could be involved in this observation.

[Shezian]

5 minutes ago, Ron Put said:

I just came across a study showing the relationship of sleep deprivation and WBC (and it's not a good thing):

Sleep restriction increases white blood cells, mainly neutrophil count, in young healthy men: A pilot study

Objectives:

This study examines the effects of sleep restricted to four hours for three consecutive nights on blood parameters, known to be associated with cardiovascular risk, in young healthy men.

Material and methods:

Eight young healthy men (age 24.5 ± 3.3 years) were studied in the sleep restricted group. Nine young healthy men (age 24 ± 2 years) were included in the control group and spent the days and nights in the sleep lab, while sleeping eight hours/night. One baseline night was followed by three nights of sleep restriction to four hours and by one recovery night of eight hours. Blood samplings were performed after the baseline night and after the third night of sleep restriction or without restriction for the control group.

Results:

A significant increase in white blood cells (WBC) (5.79 ± 1.05 vs. 6.89 ± 1.31 10³ cell/μl, p = 0.03), and neutrophils (3.17 ± 0.69 vs 4.24 ± 0.97 10³ cell/μl, p = 0.01) was observed after the third night of sleep restriction. Other blood parameters were not affected. No significant variation was observed in the control group.

Conclusion:

Sleep restriction affected WBC count, mainly neutrophils, considered as risk factor for cardiovascular disease. Stress induced by the short term sleep restriction could be involved in this observation.

Very interesting, l was always under the impression that sleep actually improve immune system parameters. Goes to show l was incorrect. 

[Gordo]

21 hours ago, Shezian said:

l was always under the impression that sleep actually improve immune system parameters. Goes to show l was incorrect.

White blood cell counts increase in response to infection, trauma, stress, tumor, etc.

[mccoy]

On 4/29/2020 at 5:50 AM, Shezian said:

Very interesting, l was always under the impression that sleep actually improve immune system parameters. Goes to show l was incorrect. 

Not at all, as a matter of fact, sleep is the main (empirical) remedy presently suggested against a SARS-COV 2 infection, due to its indisputable benefits to optimize the immune system.

As Gordo writes, an excess of WBC is not good, whereas an optimum amount is desirable. My take is that WBCs are able to proliferate, so probably the factors which govern are the efficiency of the signaling system and the prompt proliferation response of the cells. The low-range WBC in CR practitioners may be due to the usually very low levels of inflammation markers.

Probably this aspect has been discussed in previous threads.

[Ron Put]

I agree with Gordo and mccoy above.

As an aside, I was listening to a short TEDx video while driving this morning and at about the 10 minute mark, the speaker discusses the fact that light provides portion of the energy which helps blood flow, among other things.  So, while it appears to be a minute effect, it got me thinking if covering our bodies has a small deleterious effect on blood flow, at least theoretically.  Perhaps the nudists got it right?  :D
 

 

[Sibiriak]

On 3/1/2020 at 11:15 AM, tea said:

Anytime you see "mycelium", "mycelial biomass", or "full-spectrum lifecycle (Fruiting Body, Mycelium, Spores, and Primordia)" you can basically be assured you are being sold an impotent, overpriced product that is nearly entirely starch.

Is that really true? 

 

I noticed that Gordo wrote in another thread:

On 3/30/2020 at 11:52 AM, Gordo said:

Some studies even seem to indicate the health benefits are better from the mycelium vs. the fruit bodies (but this is not universal, depends on what compounds you are looking for and the species.)

 

And Ron Put cited this article:

On 4/25/2020 at 10:34 AM, Ron Put said:

Turkey Tail Mushrooms For Cancer Treatment?

"Researchers at the University of Minnesota and Bastyr University conducted the study in women with stages I-III breast cancer who had completed radiation therapy or chemotherapy. Results showed that immune function was enhanced in the women who took daily doses of turkey tail in pill form. (The actual product used in the study was Host Defense Turkey Tail mushroom from Fungi Perfecti.) The researchers reported that the improved immune response was dose dependent and that none of the subjects suffered any adverse effects."

The Host Defense Turkey Tail supplement contains mycelium:

https://hostdefense.com/products/turkey-tail-capsules

 

On 3/1/2020 at 5:31 AM, Ron Put said:

...to get the dosage I see used in studies (e.g. about 6g for turkey tail mushrooms). Better off buying dried mushrooms or powder.

If you buy Turkey Tail mushroom powder,  aren't you likely to be getting a lot of mycelium?   Is that good or bad?

[tea]

16 minutes ago, Sibiriak said:

Is that really true?

In general, I don't really trust Paul Stamets or his overpriced products. After some digging and no links being provided on any of their own websites, I found the actual study: https://bmccomplementmedtherapies.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12906-019-2681-7

Only an in-vitro study, which they leave out of their advertisements. Yes, mycelium has some immunological effects,  but it's important to note that the vast majority of studies with mycelium deal with some kind of extract. And this product is certainly an extract, considering it is 55% polysaccharides, but are mycelium polysaccharides a better option that astragalus extract standardized to polysaccharides? A bottle of NOW astragalus extract standardized to 70% polys can be had for like $10.  And polysaccharides are not exactly the gold standard metric for bioactive compounds, nor the truly interesting component of mushrooms. And then again, just showing immunological effects is a pretty easy thing to do. Even oatmeal consumption has demonstrated pretty robust immunological effects, proven through more than just in-vitro. 

Speaking from experience, I've gone through probably a kg each of both mycelium powders and fruiting bodies, and every time, the mycelium products taste almost exactly like the bland substrate they are grown on, and the fruiting bodies tastes like mushrooms.I just don't see much benefit to deliberately choosing a mycelium product over similarly priced fruiting bodies.

[Sibiriak]

Thanks Tea for the reply.

2 hours ago, tea said:

I found the actual study [...]  Only an in-vitro study, which they leave out of their advertisements.

The study Ron Put referenced, discussed by Dr. Weill,  clearly involved  women with stages I-III breast cancer,   and would appear to be this one. 

In any case,  I understand what you are saying about the bland taste of the mycelium products,  as I recently tried some,  but that could be deceptive.  Beta glucans taste pretty bland in general,  for example.  

I was thinking about incorporating some mushroom supplement(s) into my diet-- I don't want to grow them myself-- and I'm just beginning to explore this rather vast subject.

Argument for fruiting body (extracts)  over mycelium:

https://www.realmushrooms.com/medicinal-mushroom-benefits-fruiting-body-vs-mycelium/

Paul Stamets' counter-argument:

https://fungi.com/blogs/articles/benefits-of-mycelium

Both arguments look pretty slim on evidence.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/comments/94u05v/paul_stamets_host_defence_on_the_use_of_mycelium/

 

 

 

Edited June 17, 2020 by Sibiriak

[Gordo]

It does indeed seem that mycelium contains compounds beneficial to human health and boosting the immune system, there are lots of published studies out there on this.  The critics may say things like you see above, that the majority of these products are actually just the substrate itself (usually brown rice) and this is TRUE but that doesn't really mean you are getting ripped off, I mean many supplements sold today are mostly "filler" so consider it similar.  There is no way for the manufacturer to easily remove the rice from the product other than by doing an extract which in turn will also remove some of the beneficial compounds and may not be adding any real value.

That said, I also consider Paul Stamets to be a bit "questionable", he has touted some mushroom as cancer cure nonsense in the past and he's a huge supplement pusher, but he has also been one of the highest profile proponents of the health benefits of mushrooms, does do some original research, and has some interesting patents.  I enjoyed his book Mycelium Running as well as his latest interview on Joe Rogan:

 

[Sibiriak]

Thanks Gordo.   I didn't think I was going to watch that 2hr+ Stamet video,  you know, like that's all I need,  another health oriented video to watch,  but I jumped into it  at a random point and got sucked in.  Watching it now. 

[Gordo]

56 minutes ago, Sibiriak said:

Thanks Gordo.   I didn't think I was going to watch that 2hr+ Stamet video,  you know, like that's all I need,  another health oriented video to watch,  but I jumped into it  at a random point and got sucked in.  Watching it now. 

Same.  1:05:02 May be one of the best Joe Rogan monologues of all time. "People need to understand that there’s a lot of this squirreling away resources and money and things and trying to climb that corporate ladder... This is a finite life. It doesn’t last that long. It’s a trick, you get sucked into this trick and this trick is what every CEO and every head of every corporation every chief financial officer all these people that are just trying to like improve the bottom line, rake in more money, keep this company growing and keep kicking ass... it’s a trick. You’re sucked up in a trick. There is a natural human tendency to accumulate numbers. For whatever reason go back to our early days when resources were scarce and if you get sucked into that trick one day you’re going to wake up. And that’s gonna be usually too late. Usually it’s on your death bed, usually it’s close to it and you’re like "What did I do? This is IT? My health is failing, my life is falling apart, and what has my life been? It’s been 10, 12, 14 hrs. a day in these stuffed offices under fluorescent lights crunching numbers and trying to acquire things. And for what? What impact have I made on humans? What is the negative impact of my ambition on the people around me?" The one thing that psilocybin in particular and just psychedelics in general can provide is a break from patterns a stopping, a cease-fire, of all the momentum of our culture, civilization, finances, taxes, credit card debt all that shit just, whoooop, STOPS. And you get a chance to step back and look at the machine, watch it all whirl and spin in front of you, and you get to say "Ohhhh, I got sucked into the trick! I’m sucked into a trick.""

[tea]

7 hours ago, Sibiriak said:

Thanks Tea for the reply.

The study Ron Put referenced, discussed by Dr. Weill,  clearly involved  women with stages I-III breast cancer,   and would appear to be this one. 

"Preliminary data with these small samples of 3 breast cancer patients per dose cohort group showing dose-related trends lead to the testable hypothesis that 6 grams of Tv may lead to faster immune recovery after radiotherapy."

6 to 9 gram dosages of mycelium extract showing significant effects aren't exactly the same as the 1gram per serving offered in those capsules. I'm curious what the extraction ratio is. For all I know, it could be something like 10:1 wherein you would have to consume 50, 100 grams of raw mycelium to get those same effects. 

But also, I absolutely do not support RealMushrooms or a handful of the other companies reselling Nammex products at ridiculous prices. Nammex sells their mushroom powders in bulk for like $50/kg, only to be resold for nearly $1 a gram in some cases.