CORONA vs CRONie ... are bugs more scared of us?

[KHashmi316]

 

Several years ago, a private (email) exchange between myself and fellow CRONie -- "CR vs.immunity (a different hypothesis)" -- led to the discussion of CR vs immunity (as pertaining to common colds/flu).

Because of the recent interest in pandemics and their consequences, I thought I might condense some of the highlights from the exchange.

Does CR "boost" immunity? Or less susceptibility to colds/flu something else, but CR related?

I argued that bugs leave the CR'd organisms alone because the organism is in poor (starving) condition and might not make it: (a) It could die taking you (bugs) with it (i.e., before you had a chance to spread); (b) better to wait the famine out, when organism is in better shape, and a more "meatier" host. 

I would support that argument with lowered WBC reported by many CR folks (on Main list, back in the day). 

That said, there are all sorts of bugs ... many are more "reckless" or have a different strategy. But, overall, it's better to have healthy, well-fed hosts that bugs can pimp every once in while.

[mccoy]

10 hours ago, KHashmi316 said:

I argued that bugs leave the CR'd organisms alone because the organism is in poor (starving) condition and might not make it: (a) It could die taking you (bugs) with it (i.e., before you had a chance to spread); (b) better to wait the famine out, when organism is in better shape, and a more "meatier" host. 

The argument might be valid if the virus were a sentient, conscious entity, capable of rational thinking.

Instead, it just seems to be a biological code, a very simple organism programmed to self-replicate into a host. The program is blind, that is executes known subroutines.

Bottom line, it all depends probably on the severity of CR. Too much starvation, mTOR chronically inhibited, T-cells and other cells of the immune system won't proliferate, the virus will meet no resistance. 

Balanced CR= allows regeneration and longevity but also proliferation when needed. Maybe this would be the time for strict CR practitioners to boost their caloric intake and switch on mTOR.

[KHashmi317]

On 3/12/2020 at 9:39 PM, KHashmi316 said:

 

I would support that argument with lowered WBC reported by many CR folks (on Main list, back in the day). 

 

Just wanted to add a bit more to this remark ... and I'm SPECULATING ... that the reason WBC is lower is that total non-sick "bug load" (viral load, etc) is less. And THIS is because the bugs are leaving their POTENTIAL host alone ... until famine conditions improve. 

On another note: I don't know how much extra energy (calories) are needed to power a normal (ad lib) defense network. In other  words, do MORE immune cells (WBCs, etc) suck up more power?

[Saul]

Hi Kuhram!

My understanding is that although serious CRONnies have fewer white blood cells (most types), each cell is more effective.  So it's a total positive.

[mccoy]

16 hours ago, KHashmi317 said:

On another note: I don't know how much extra energy (calories) are needed to power a normal (ad lib) defense network. In other  words, do MORE immune cells (WBCs, etc) suck up more power?

Back to serious talking, I have little idea. From one side CR very often seems to thwart infections, but I wonder about special cases like this one, where a prompt and decisive action of the immune system is requested. Valter Longo cites the death of Roy Walford as caused by the excessive CR he underwent during his experiment and the consequent undermining of the immune system (Walford had cancer if I remember well).

If a CR regimen seems to eliminate all symptoms of flu and other affections, by extrapolation we may guess that it's well protected. On the other hand, we don't know if the extrapolation is correct with this SARS-CoV-2 virus.

AFAIK, immune cells are among the cells which need to proliferate to implement an effective defense. In a normal state they are not numerous, but when for example a viral infection takes place, chemical signals cause a sudden proliferation of such cells. Proliferation requires energy= nutrients. A contrary signal from mTOR might maybe slow the proliferation down. 

I cannot quantify the extra energy but conceptually we know that leucine plus glucose activate the mTOR cascade and EAAs are needed to build new cells.

 

Edited March 14, 2020 by mccoy

[pete533]

Roy Walford died of amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS). Check out his Wikipedia page

[KHashmi317]

A living organism is comprised of "systems" that Nature uses to control life and biology for its own, selfish, MYSTERIOUS needs. One may be population control (weed out); another,  mutation (for the sake of adaptation), etc.

These systems -- of which any given organism (or species) is comprised of -- may include:

The genome

The cancerome 

The virome 

The microbiome

etc., etc.

ALL of the above are threatened by famine because famine threatens  the organism (= food, clothing, shelter, house-of-worship). 

IMO, it makes sense that baddies (cancerome , virome, etc.) de-limit THEMSELVES ... and/or the goodies and the baddies make some sort of deal ... until the famine emergency is over. 

Apologies for overuse of metaphors and scientific generalization .... the limits of human codified language ca. 2020. 

[mccoy]

20 hours ago, pete533 said:

Roy Walford died of amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS). Check out his Wikipedia page

Thanks, Pete, I'll have to review what Longo exactly said about Walford's demise, but he correlated it to his overextended CR in the biosphere-2 experiment. From the pictures shown, Roy Walford was sure extremely emaciated. And Valter Longo, of course, is not infallible.

[mccoy]

10 hours ago, KHashmi317 said:

LL of the above are threatened by famine because famine threatens  the organism (= food, clothing, shelter, house-of-worship). 

IMO, it makes sense that baddies (cancerome , virome, etc.) de-limit THEMSELVES ... and/or the goodies and the baddies make some sort of deal ... until the famine emergency is over. 

Apologies for overuse of metaphors and scientific generalization .... the limits of human codified language ca. 2020. 

OK, I grasp the concept and it has some logic. Although we know that optimization governs in that regard and most often the optimum is not very well known.

[mccoy]

OK, my memory was not correct, Longo said that ALS might have been caused by CR but didn't go into the causative details:

 

 

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Eventually, Dr. Walford developed ALS. His ALS could very well have been due to age and calorie restriction and other problems that they had in Biosphere 2. I have always said that whenever they came out of Biosphere 2, they looked terrible. A student just before me, Richard Weindruch, did a monkey study at the University of Wisconsin. In this study on calorie restriction, there were incredible effects on diseases such as diabetes, cancer, and cardiovascular disease,¹ but some problems started emerging.

 

[Fernando Gabriel]

Roy Walford was not that thin he was 5 feet and 9 inches at the start of the CR and 120 pounds and 5 feet 8 inches and 134 pounds on the day of death as he could do excessive CR if it were so we should have the BMI 21-22 to be I have seen successful cases of people with IMC 19.17 and even 14 who have reached supercentenary status.

[mccoy]

Hi Fernando Gabriel, where do you live? How is the virus situation there?

AFAIK, Roy Walford was extremely emaciated after the biosphere 2 experiment, then he probably regained some bodyweight.

[Fernando Gabriel]

46 minutes ago, mccoy said:

Hi Fernando Gabriel, where do you live? How is the virus situation there?

AFAIK, Roy Walford was extremely emaciated after the biosphere 2 experiment, then he probably regained some bodyweight.

This is a picture of him in biosphere 2 how many pounds did he have and what percentage of fat did he appear to have?
I already had 42 kg with 1.82 in 2019 and I had no sequels so I think I can reach 100 years with 1.82 and 56 kg

[mccoy]

Yes Fernando, you can reach 100 if SARS-COV-2 will not eat you out before! You need to eat to be able to fight the virus!

Re. Walford: yes, those are exactly the pictures I remembered.

[Robert Cavanaugh]

Haven't posted in the forums in a very long time, but thought this thread needed some stimulus.   As some here know I am an elected county commissioner here in eastern North Carolina.  I have 6 committee assignments with one of them being on the hospital board.  This past Monday, the hospital administrator had all board members tested for the antivirus and we all had our test results back about two hours later.

To my shock, I tested positive for the antivirus.  Sometime during the past several weeks or months, I contracted the virus but I never had any symptoms at all.  I am 72 years old, still run a one man landscape company in which I do all the work.  I started CR when I was 53 in 2001.  I keep my BMI around the upper limit of healthy  (24-25) and I am very active as a result of my work.  I should do some cardio work, but my GP said I was the healthiest 72 YO he has ever seen....and he has been practicing for 45 or more years.  I have no health issues though my cholesterol tends toward the upper limit.

Glad to see some of the old timers from our Yahoo days still chiming in.

Bob Cavanaugh

[TomBAvoider]

Welcome back - to posting - Bob! Also, you used to have employees, I'm sad to see you working by yourself. I remember the anecdote you told about employees. You said that you had a very good employee once, and you encouraged him and helped him branch out on his own so that he would have his own company or work on his own and no longer have to be your employee. However, that employee, while excellent in your employ, completely failed as a self-operator. From that you concluded that the reality is that it takes a special set of characteristics to be your own boss and that not everyone is suited and some people are better suited to be employees (even excellent employees) working for someone else. I bring it up, because you mentioned that you now work on your own, so that came back to me.

Clearly you are very active as a result of your work. What's interesting, is that research seems to say that LEISURE time physical activity is health-promoting while WORK time physical activity is the opposite. Nice to see you defy those results. 

I think you are competing with Saul for optimal health in later years. It's amazing to think that you started at 53. I remember those years like it was yesterday, mere 19-20 years ago, when CR was the hot new thing. Time flies. In another 20, you'll be in your 90's - maybe you'll go back to having employees in your landscaping company :)

[Saul]

😄

[drewab]

On 10/29/2020 at 8:44 PM, Robert Cavanaugh said:

Haven't posted in the forums in a very long time, but thought this thread needed some stimulus.   As some here know I am an elected county commissioner here in eastern North Carolina.  I have 6 committee assignments with one of them being on the hospital board.  This past Monday, the hospital administrator had all board members tested for the antivirus and we all had our test results back about two hours later.

To my shock, I tested positive for the antivirus.  Sometime during the past several weeks or months, I contracted the virus but I never had any symptoms at all.  I am 72 years old, still run a one man landscape company in which I do all the work.  I started CR when I was 53 in 2001.  I keep my BMI around the upper limit of healthy  (24-25) and I am very active as a result of my work.  I should do some cardio work, but my GP said I was the healthiest 72 YO he has ever seen....and he has been practicing for 45 or more years.  I have no health issues though my cholesterol tends toward the upper limit.

Glad to see some of the old timers from our Yahoo days still chiming in.

Bob Cavanaugh

I would be curious to hear about what your CR practiced looked like back in 2001 compared to what it looks like now almost 20 years later? Personally, I've been practicing since March of 2011 and maintain a lower BMI (20-21). I'm glad to hear that you had no problem defeating the coronavirus. There is a lot to be said about maintaining a healthy lifestyle/immune system to stack the odds in your favor against a number of illnesses/conditions, including COVID 19. 

[Saul]

Hi Bob!

I'm 81, very healthy.  I've become more strict on CRON and low protein.  My weight is now 120.5 lbs; it was 127l bs when I was tested by Luigi.  I've cut out any kind of snack between meals -- just breakfast (1 lb of raw Nappa cabbage), lunch (a very large varied vegetable salad), dinner (3oz of raw salmon, some avacado, red cabbage, cucumber, edamame, some pickled ginger).  I'm still full time as a Prof. of Math. at the University of Rochester -- and I teach two classes in-person twice a week.  I'm the oldest guy in the math dept -- and one of the very few who are teaching in-person (all of the others teaching in-person are under 40; the vast majority of the faculty are teaching on-line).

An  interesting detail:  The UR and I are in Monroe county, in upstate NY.  According to (I forget what reference), the county in the US with the lowest percentage of Covid-19 cases, that has a population of over 1/2 million, is Monroe county.  Monroe has a population of about 2 million or more.

  --  Saul

 

 

[Saul]

Also I should note that I exercise vigorously on an elliptical cross trainer with hand motion, at the maximum resistance at a high speed for 1/2 hour, 6 days a week.  I used to do the same at my gym; since the pandemic, I now do this at my home.  This kind of exercise is aerobic, but also some strengthening, because of the resistance level.

  --  Saul

[Mechanism]

Thanks for the update Saul. I am very happy to hear you are doing well both health wise and also with a wonderful sense of purpose you have always had - teaching math at the University of Rochester. And with an excellent attendance rate too I recall.

Many ease up CRON a bit with age because of the evidence keeping a little extra reserve may prove helpful in the event of an injury or metabolic insult, with some evidence to this effect. Obviously it depends on personal circumstances.  I am curious, what made you decide to get “more strict on CRON?”

I presume you still follow your biomarkers along with your doctors including the “CR-sympathetic” nephrologist you referred to in the past. You have always been understandably  proud of your outstanding lipid panel ratios.

Wishing you well,

Mechanism

PS- I will declare Covid in “a new era” when Kriplalu re-opens.  No word yet, AFAIK.

 

Edited November 4, 2020 by Mechanism

[Saul]

Hi Mechanism!

I always wanted to up my level of CRON; I decided to do it.

  --  Saul

[Mechanism]

Glad you are doing well Saul. Stay healthy and stay safe!