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KHashmi316

CORONA vs CRONie ... are bugs more scared of us?

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Several years ago, a private (email) exchange between myself and fellow CRONie -- "CR vs.immunity (a different hypothesis)" -- led to the discussion of CR vs immunity (as pertaining to common colds/flu).

Because of the recent interest in pandemics and their consequences, I thought I might condense some of the highlights from the exchange.

Does CR "boost" immunity? Or less susceptibility to colds/flu something else, but CR related?

I argued that bugs leave the CR'd organisms alone because the organism is in poor (starving) condition and might not make it: (a) It could die taking you (bugs) with it (i.e., before you had a chance to spread); (b) better to wait the famine out, when organism is in better shape, and a more "meatier" host. 

I would support that argument with lowered WBC reported by many CR folks (on Main list, back in the day). 

That said, there are all sorts of bugs ... many are more "reckless" or have a different strategy. But, overall, it's better to have healthy, well-fed hosts that bugs can pimp every once in while.

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10 hours ago, KHashmi316 said:

I argued that bugs leave the CR'd organisms alone because the organism is in poor (starving) condition and might not make it: (a) It could die taking you (bugs) with it (i.e., before you had a chance to spread); (b) better to wait the famine out, when organism is in better shape, and a more "meatier" host. 

The argument might be valid if the virus were a sentient, conscious entity, capable of rational thinking.

Instead, it just seems to be a biological code, a very simple organism programmed to self-replicate into a host. The program is blind, that is executes known subroutines.

Bottom line, it all depends probably on the severity of CR. Too much starvation, mTOR chronically inhibited, T-cells and other cells of the immune system won't proliferate, the virus will meet no resistance. 

Balanced CR= allows regeneration and longevity but also proliferation when needed. Maybe this would be the time for strict CR practitioners to boost their caloric intake and switch on mTOR.

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On 3/12/2020 at 9:39 PM, KHashmi316 said:

 

I would support that argument with lowered WBC reported by many CR folks (on Main list, back in the day). 

 

Just wanted to add a bit more to this remark ... and I'm SPECULATING ... that the reason WBC is lower is that total non-sick "bug load" (viral load, etc) is less. And THIS is because the bugs are leaving their POTENTIAL host alone ... until famine conditions improve. 

On another note: I don't know how much extra energy (calories) are needed to power a normal (ad lib) defense network. In other  words, do MORE immune cells (WBCs, etc) suck up more power?

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Hi Kuhram!

My understanding is that although serious CRONnies have fewer white blood cells (most types), each cell is more effective.  So it's a total positive.

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16 hours ago, KHashmi317 said:

On another note: I don't know how much extra energy (calories) are needed to power a normal (ad lib) defense network. In other  words, do MORE immune cells (WBCs, etc) suck up more power?

Back to serious talking, I have little idea. From one side CR very often seems to thwart infections, but I wonder about special cases like this one, where a prompt and decisive action of the immune system is requested. Valter Longo cites the death of Roy Walford as caused by the excessive CR he underwent during his experiment and the consequent undermining of the immune system (Walford had cancer if I remember well).

If a CR regimen seems to eliminate all symptoms of flu and other affections, by extrapolation we may guess that it's well protected. On the other hand, we don't know if the extrapolation is correct with this SARS-CoV-2 virus.

AFAIK, immune cells are among the cells which need to proliferate to implement an effective defense. In a normal state they are not numerous, but when for example a viral infection takes place, chemical signals cause a sudden proliferation of such cells. Proliferation requires energy= nutrients. A contrary signal from mTOR might maybe slow the proliferation down. 

I cannot quantify the extra energy but conceptually we know that leucine plus glucose activate the mTOR cascade and EAAs are needed to build new cells.

 

Edited by mccoy

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A living organism is comprised of "systems" that Nature uses to control life and biology for its own, selfish, MYSTERIOUS needs. One may be population control (weed out); another,  mutation (for the sake of adaptation), etc.

These systems -- of which any given organism (or species) is comprised of -- may include:

The genome

The cancerome 

The virome 

The microbiome

etc., etc.

ALL of the above are threatened by famine because famine threatens  the organism (= food, clothing, shelter, house-of-worship). 

IMO, it makes sense that baddies (cancerome , virome, etc.) de-limit THEMSELVES ... and/or the goodies and the baddies make some sort of deal ... until the famine emergency is over. 

Apologies for overuse of metaphors and scientific generalization .... the limits of human codified language ca. 2020. 

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20 hours ago, pete533 said:

Roy Walford died of amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS). Check out his Wikipedia page

Thanks, Pete, I'll have to review what Longo exactly said about Walford's demise, but he correlated it to his overextended CR in the biosphere-2 experiment. From the pictures shown, Roy Walford was sure extremely emaciated. And Valter Longo, of course, is not infallible.

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10 hours ago, KHashmi317 said:

LL of the above are threatened by famine because famine threatens  the organism (= food, clothing, shelter, house-of-worship). 

IMO, it makes sense that baddies (cancerome , virome, etc.) de-limit THEMSELVES ... and/or the goodies and the baddies make some sort of deal ... until the famine emergency is over. 

Apologies for overuse of metaphors and scientific generalization .... the limits of human codified language ca. 2020. 

OK, I grasp the concept and it has some logic. Although we know that optimization governs in that regard and most often the optimum is not very well known.

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OK, my memory was not correct, Longo said that ALS might have been caused by CR but didn't go into the causative details:

 
 
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Eventually, Dr. Walford developed ALS. His ALS could very well have been due to age and calorie restriction and other problems that they had in Biosphere 2. I have always said that whenever they came out of Biosphere 2, they looked terrible. A student just before me, Richard Weindruch, did a monkey study at the University of Wisconsin. In this study on calorie restriction, there were incredible effects on diseases such as diabetes, cancer, and cardiovascular disease,1 but some problems started emerging.

 

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Roy Walford was not that thin he was 5 feet and 9 inches at the start of the CR and 120 pounds and 5 feet 8 inches and 134 pounds on the day of death as he could do excessive CR if it were so we should have the BMI 21-22 to be I have seen successful cases of people with IMC 19.17 and even 14 who have reached supercentenary status.

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Hi Fernando Gabriel, where do you live? How is the virus situation there?

AFAIK, Roy Walford was extremely emaciated after the biosphere 2 experiment, then he probably regained some bodyweight.

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46 minutes ago, mccoy said:

Hi Fernando Gabriel, where do you live? How is the virus situation there?

AFAIK, Roy Walford was extremely emaciated after the biosphere 2 experiment, then he probably regained some bodyweight.

Resultado de imagem para roy walford biosphere 2 bmiThis is a picture of him in biosphere 2 how many pounds did he have and what percentage of fat did he appear to have?
I already had 42 kg with 1.82 in 2019 and I had no sequels so I think I can reach 100 years with 1.82 and 56 kg

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Yes Fernando, you can reach 100 if SARS-COV-2 will not eat you out before! You need to eat to be able to fight the virus!

Re. Walford: yes, those are exactly the pictures I remembered.

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