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TomBAvoider

Massive takedown of Sinclair, Guarante, others, and the whole field of "anti-aging"

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Thanks!  Some good points (and a few a little below the belt).

But since he is placing this on a plane with Covid-19, I find some irony in the fact that the ultimate effect of overhyping "miracle cures" and shady amalgamations of science and marketing in the anti-aging industry, pale in comparison to the ultimate effect of overhyping the fear of Covid-19 and the amalgamation of politics, science and propaganda which we are currently witnessing.

And a few will make lots of money from it, too.

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Thanks Tomb.   Thought provoking,  yes,  but  I don't feel I have the time-- or competence-- to assess in depth the validity and significance of all the author's arguments and attacks.  I'd certainly want to read some responses,  if they exist,  from his targets.  I noticed Guido Kroemer was indicted as well--  his work on autophagy has come  up  a few times in this forum (e.g. here) and always seemed legitimate.

Btw, this comment caught my attention:

 
Quote

Patrick Vallance was one of the executives at GSK that allegedly ignored the advice of internal scientists and bought Sinclair’s company for $720 million. Although Sirtis’s drugs were abandoned by GSK, he became Sir Patrick Vallance FRS and was appointed Chief Scientific Adviser to the Government of the United Kingdom. He told Sky News, to fight Covid-19 “Communities will become immune to it and that’s going to be an important part of controlling this longer term,” he said. “About 60 per cent is the sort of figure you need to get herd immunity.”

 

 

 

 

Edited by Sibiriak

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Look, I'm not a scientist, so I really can't speak to the science aspect of what these guys put out - yes, I read the same accounts everybody else does, but I'm not a researcher myself, so...

What I have some familiarity with is BS hype and BS detection. I've been around for awhile, and I've been around for various biotech "revolutionary" companies which were flogging their supposed prospects through the decades with the especially big explosion back in the 80's. 

I have also lived to see the aftermath. As a result, I've developed a pretty keen nose for BS, the pump and dump schemes and hucksterism. 

And for years and years David Sinclair has set off my BS detector with alam bells. The whole way resveratrol was flogged and hyped and promoted - it just smelled really bad, like so many such schemes I recognized - it's the MO, the way it was done. I was NEVER ever taken in by the resveratrol hype, and I was not even a little surprised when it all collapsed into silence once you took a closer look. And right on schedule, I witnessed the formation of Sinclair's company and the pump and dump scheme. Hundreds of millions of $ changed hands, and then not that long after, it was ignminiously buried. I've seen this movie before - many times.

The MO this of this whole thing reminds one of that old saying: if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... Sinclair is certainly walking and quacking - but draw your own conclusion.

If you go through these boards - and the email list before I joined these boards - I've been expressing strong reservations about David Sinclair, going so far as to call him a huckster. But in the last couple of years, I've eased off on the criticism, because I don't actually have 100% PROOF he's a huckster, so I figured I am obligated to give him the benefit of the doubt. So, my new position has been that he's "overly optimistic" and allows his enthusiasm to carry him too far - that's far more diplomatic and non-confrontational. 

And whenever there's some new hype coming out of the Sinclair world (like the recent NAD "excitement"), or his new book about aging - I just caution people to remember the story of resveratrol. Because while I can't - and won't - call BS on everything he does, it is also entirely fair of me to mention documented history, becaus that is something that did actually happen. And what happened with resveratrol is its own kind of evidence.

Now, I personally am allergic to hype and immediately suspicious when I see evidence of the hype machinery being fired up and new products offered for sale, or careers to be made and PR propagated. But of course - YMMV, and you should make up your own mind.  

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26 minutes ago, TomBAvoider said:

Look, I'm not a scientist, so I really can't speak to the science aspect of what these guys put out - yes, I read the same accounts everybody else does, but I'm not a researcher myself, so...

What I have some familiarity with is BS hype and BS detection. I've been around for awhile, and I've been around for various biotech "revolutionary" companies which were flogging their supposed prospects through the decades with the especially big explosion back in the 80's. 

I have also lived to see the aftermath. As a result, I've developed a pretty keen nose for BS, the pump and dump schemes and hucksterism. 

And for years and years David Sinclair has set off my BS detector with alam bells. The whole way resveratrol was flogged and hyped and promoted - it just smelled really bad, like so many such schemes I recognized - it's the MO, the way it was done. I was NEVER ever taken in by the resveratrol hype, and I was not even a little surprised when it all collapsed into silence once you took a closer look. And right on schedule, I witnessed the formation of Sinclair's company and the pump and dump scheme. Hundreds of millions of $ changed hands, and then not that long after, it was ignminiously buried. I've seen this movie before - many times.

The MO this of this whole thing reminds one of that old saying: if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... Sinclair is certainly walking and quacking - but draw your own conclusion.

If you go through these boards - and the email list before I joined these boards - I've been expressing strong reservations about David Sinclair, going so far as to call him a huckster. But in the last couple of years, I've eased off on the criticism, because I don't actually have 100% PROOF he's a huckster, so I figured I am obligated to give him the benefit of the doubt. So, my new position has been that he's "overly optimistic" and allows his enthusiasm to carry him too far - that's far more diplomatic and non-confrontational. 

And whenever there's some new hype coming out of the Sinclair world (like the recent NAD "excitement"), or his new book about aging - I just caution people to remember the story of resveratrol. Because while I can't - and won't - call BS on everything he does, it is also entirely fair of me to mention documented history, becaus that is something that did actually happen. And what happened with resveratrol is its own kind of evidence.

Now, I personally am allergic to hype and immediately suspicious when I see evidence of the hype machinery being fired up and new products offered for sale, or careers to be made and PR propagated. But of course - YMMV, and you should make up your own mind.  

I loved your post!

  --  Saul

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1 hour ago, TomBAvoider said:

..for years and years David Sinclair has set off my BS detector with alarm bells.

Yes,  I recall this post of yours:
 

Quote

 

The other thing is for folks like us on this board, who enjoy reading research papers. Whatever the problems are as illuminated in this video, it goes twice as much - or five times as much - for research that comes out of dodgy countries in Eastern Europe or crucially China. In fact, the extensive fraud in Chinese medical reasearch is at such high levels, that you would be strongly advised to simply ignore any paper that comes out of China, as odds are it's 100% unreliable. Tons and tons of such research is also done for purely commercial reasons, where they identify some substance and a supposed "benefit" and then quickly look to monetize it through supplements which don't even need the paltry drug trial standards.

By the way, this practice is widespread in the West too - notably that (in my opinion) huckster, Dr. Sinclair of resveratrol fame, who published some rat studies and then quickly established a drug company centered around resveratrol and raked in a fortune in stock and eventual sale. Now he's on to the next substance to repeat the process. All the while helped by massive hype in the press.

Friends, we should be highly skeptical about all such research. Where there's a dollar to be made and professional position to be obtained, you will find fraud and abuse. We - the consumers - are a highly motivated group: who doesn't want to live longer, or at least avoid disease? Almost everyone, that's who - and we are often desperate. Combine this desperate demand, with hucksters who are willing to fill that demand with dodgy pills, and you have a firestorm of economic activity, with no benefit and often detriment to our health.

As the wise old saying goes: caveat emptor. You must take responsibility for your own health, do your own research, and don't simply blindly follow some doc's suggestions. CAVEAT EMPTOR!

 

 

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Very interesting. It is one thing to be overly optimistic, as Tom has suggested, or to reach different conclusions looking at the same data set. It is entirely different to photoshop data and to essentially be 'copying and pasting' photographic evidence. 

Huckster or not, I'm still keeping my eye on him to see how things pan out moving forward.

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So what do you guys think the odds are that this latest buzz from Katcher / Horvath / Akshay (promoted by Josh Mitteldorf) ends up falling into the same category (sketchy anti-aging hucksterism)?  I hope its legit, but already there are some red flags... they tested an injectable that they claim can be easily and inexpensively synthesized, but usually as these things go you can't hock injectables (if anything that adds to the legitimacy) but now all of a sudden they have a transdermal patch and a topical gel version! Haha. I don't know, we'll see... they do seem to be taking it slow and they are talking about FDA trials and they aren't actually selling anything for the moment, so those are good signs.  It would actually be pretty humorous (but depressing) if big pharma swooped in and bought them out for hundreds of millions like they did with Sinclair only to find that it is a dead end.

 

Edited by Gordo

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39 minutes ago, Gordo said:

So what do you guys think the odds are that this latest buzz from Katcher / Horvath / Akshay (promoted by Josh Mitteldorf) ends up falling into the same category (sketchy anti-aging hucksterism)?

I'm waiting for compelling evidence that they are actually improving the healthspan and lifespan of their mice and not just affecting biomarkers of an "aging clock".  And then I'll wait for compelling evidence that it applies to free living humans pursuing optimal health through diet and lifestyle and doesn't just benefit their strain of inbred lab mice fed an unnatural highly processed mouse chow living in cages.

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1 hour ago, Todd Allen said:

I'm waiting for compelling evidence that they are actually improving the healthspan and lifespan of their mice and not just affecting biomarkers of an "aging clock".  And then I'll wait for compelling evidence that it applies to free living humans pursuing optimal health through diet and lifestyle and doesn't just benefit their strain of inbred lab mice fed an unnatural highly processed mouse chow living in cages.

Ha, ha, that pretty much says it all :)...

I agree 100%. Again, as I said in the other thread - I don't trust the Horvath clock. It's just a set of biomarkers, which as we know, are always subject to multiple variables - because, c'mon, there's only one marker that matters - the calendar. Please note, we don't even have rat/mice longevity data here - anyone can take a strain of mice and show some kind of biomarker move in a "good direction" with any old treatment without having to show longevity data.

Folks, this is not even "early days". It's a burst of excitement. My suspicion is it will come and go, just like it happened a thousand times before.

We all hope, and hope springs eternal, but I see the first signs of the "MO" peeking through. We'll see how it goes.

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There is some groundbreaking research being done by myself. This is the real thing, but I can’t disclose my final results due to legal reasons and patent protection concerns.

What my lawyers tell me I’m able to release is that it concerns a flavored concoction of Vanilla and other assorted ingredients.

I have dubbed this substance, “COOKIES AND CREME”.

And again my lawyers are only allowing me to release preliminary findings.........

Fat, I’m getting fat.

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DHL, sounds like my research into my favorite seasonal "brandy beans" from TJ's - chocolates filled with brandy. Just a few boost my energy levels and I'm convinced prolong life :)... too bad those are only sold for about a month at TJ's :)

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