Natto is the way to go!

[Mike41]

to hell with the pills I’m going with real food source of vitamin k2. Too many times we have seen pills are not equivalent to the real food sources. Natto is also a good source of plant proteins, probiotics, and other nutritional positives. I’m ordering my NATTO from Nyrture a New York based firm that uses real glas, not plastic and gets great reviews. I talked to Anne who answered when I called and she Was so friendly and especially knowledgeable about k2 and all the other health aspects of Natto. She is a bio chemistry major. Wonderful person, concerned about environmental impact of their business etc. We talked for quite a while. 
 

https://www.nyrture.com/blog/natto-and-immunity

I have an order on the way. I’ll let you know my impression of the product as soon as I try it

Edited July 28, 2020 by Mike41

[Gordo]

Mmmmmmm natto! So delicious and it even cures covid-19 ;)

[Gordo]

Huh, from your link it turns out they sell their product at a store just a couple miles from me.  I’ll have to check it out.  But the Asian grocer sells the usual styrofoam servings for like 50 cents, not sure about a $10 glass jar, haha.

[Mike41]

16 minutes ago, Gordo said:

Mmmmmmm natto! So delicious and it even cures covid-19 ;)

In fairness the blog did not make that claim! In fact they stressed that It is pure speculation. See below from the blog article:

There are a lot of great reasons to eat natto, but this probably isn’t one of them!

The truth is no one has shown any scientific evidence that natto specifically impacts Covid-19 infection or outcomes. And even if this were true, there has not been enough time to do the science necessary to test the idea. However, natto is well known to protect against many bacterial pathogens, and there are some early hints that natto can help fight some viral infections too

Edited July 28, 2020 by Mike41

[Mike41]

11 minutes ago, Gordo said:

Huh, from your link it turns out they sell their product at a store just a couple miles from me.  I’ll have to check it out.  But the Asian grocer sells the usual styrofoam servings for like 50 cents, not sure about a $10 glass jar, haha.

I don’t have the luxury of a local supplier. So I’m stuck ordering online

[Todd S]

I buy natto from a local japanese market (Nijiya). I also buy Trader Joe's Steamed Lentils [ lentils, salt ,and essential oils (cloves, laurel, thyme, pepper, and garlic) ]. I combine the two together and distribute the combination into small plastic containers that I (freeze or just) refrigerate -- and consume with dinner over the subsequent week.

I find this to be an enjoyable way to consume natto

[TomBAvoider]

I believe Dean pioneered a method of making your own natto, so hit him up for tips if he's willing. I think Gordo also experimented, but I think he gave up for reasons I no longer remember - or maybe I'm misremembering Gordo's adventures with natto.

[Mike41]

Thanks for the tip Tom. I googled it and numerous sites came up with Natto recipes. I will spend some time exploring.

[Ron Put]

Natto has been discussed rather extensively here already if I recall.

Also, depending on how much you consume, you may or may not get enough k2-7, which still leaves the door open for occasional supplementation, IMO.

I find that making natto yourself is not very efficient, as good natto can be found easily and it's cheap.  Just don't eat the condiments they pack with it, as they are packed with salt, etc..  I often mix it with a little apple cider vinegar and stir, or sometimes I add a ripe avocado and mash the tow together.  To me it tastes better than it sounds -- I quite like it, actually.

[Mike41]

Ron You don’t have to consume much Natto to get plenty of k2. Screw the pills! Ha ha

“The only food that gives you a sufficient amount is natto.” Dr. Yonetani says that a single heaping tablespoon of natto contains approximately 300 micrograms of K2, about seven times the minimum daily requirement.Aug 2, 2016

 

Are You Ready to Eat Your Natto? - The New York Times

[Ron Put]

7 hours ago, Mike41 said:

Ron You don’t have to consume much Natto to get plenty of k2. Screw the pills! Ha ha

“The only food that gives you a sufficient amount is natto.” Dr. Yonetani says that a single heaping tablespoon of natto contains approximately 300 micrograms of K2, about seven times the minimum daily requirement.Aug 2, 2016...

 

Mike, I am not arguing against natto 🙂  

I've been eating natto on pretty much daily bases for a while now and we've had this discussion elsewhere here (Dean is a big proponent of it and got me excited about it).  The content of k2-7 is about as high in natto as it gets, but I am not sure that eating a serving (50g or so) is sufficient or optimum, so I supplement with MK-7 every other day or so. 

K2 can be MK-4 or MK-7 and while natto has the highest concentration of MK-7 found in any food, 

This is an interesting article, which also mentions the MK-7 content in a pack of natto:

Intake of Fermented Soybeans, Natto, Is Associated with Reduced Bone Loss in Postmenopausal Women: Japanese Population-Based Osteoporosis (JPOS) Study

One pack of natto contains 35 mg of calcium and 350 μg menaquinone-7.
 

[Mike41]

Ron please explain why you think you need a supplement if a mere TB of Natto has 300 micrograms. I am looking at a supplement of NOW MK-7 it has 100 micrograms? Another point wrt Natto is that the very microbe it contains can populate your gut and produce even more k-2

Edited July 30, 2020 by Mike41

[Mike41]

8.7. Vitamin K2: The Immune System

In recent years, ex vivo studies have demonstrated a previously unknown immunomodulatory role for vitamin K2. First, it was demonstrated that MK-7 modulated expression of TNF-α, IL-1α and IL-1β [102]. Furthering this finding, K2 decreases proliferation of T-cells from healthy individuals, whereas vitamin K1 had no such effect [103]. This has been further substantiated with T-cells from a larger number of children with pediatric atopic dermatitis and healthy controls, as well as a separate study with patients on dialysis [104,105]. Both these studies demonstrated that K2 decreased the number of activated T-cells, as well as proliferation. Thus, accumulated evidence is showing a novel role of K2 as an immunosuppressive agent. This needs to be further elaborated; until then, a novel physiological mechanism by which vitamin K2 can aid immunomodulation can be hypothesized, although it requires further study

Edited July 30, 2020 by Mike41

[Ron Put]

On 7/30/2020 at 8:48 AM, Mike41 said:

Ron please explain why you think you need a supplement if a mere TB of Natto has 300 micrograms. I am looking at a supplement of NOW MK-7 it has 100 micrograms? Another point wrt Natto is that the very microbe it contains can populate your gut and produce even more k-2

Because it seems like more is better, based on studies like this:

Intake of fermented soybean (natto) increases circulating vitamin K2 (menaquinone-7) and gamma-carboxylated osteocalcin concentration in normal individuals

Eight male volunteers were given sequentially fermented soybeans (natto) containing three different contents of MK-7 at an interval of 7 days as follows: regular natto including 775 micrograms/100 g (MK-7 x 1) or reinforced natto containing 1298 micrograms/100 g (MK-7 x 1.5) or 1765 micrograms/100 g (MK-7 x 2). Subsequently, it was found that serum MK-7 and gamma-carboxylated osteocalcin concentrations were significantly elevated following the start of dietary intake of MK-7 (1298 or 1765 micrograms/100 g). Serum undercarboxylated osteocalcin concentrations were significantly decreased by dietary MK-7 (1765 micrograms/100 g) supplementation. Moreover, the changes in serum MK-7 level with the frequency of dietary natto intake were examined in 134 healthy adults (85 men and 39 women) without and with occasional (a few times per month), and frequent (a few times per week) dietary intake of regular natto including MK-7 (775 micrograms/100 g).

In Japan, they sell a patented version of natto which has triple the MK-7 amount of ordinary natto.  Thus, I figure that supplementation is warranted, as I also skip a day or two a week.

[TomBAvoider]

The BBC did a natto writeup, mentioning vit. K, but failing to differentiate between K1 and K2:

http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20200727-japans-most-polarising-superfood

[Dean Pomerleau]

2 hours ago, TomBAvoider said:

The BBC did a natto writeup, mentioning vit. K, but failing to differentiate between K1 and K2:

http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20200727-japans-most-polarising-superfood

What this article and this thread don't mention is that besides vitamin K2, natto contains the beneficial enzyme nattokinase, which I discussed extensively on this thread on natto's health benefits.

--Dean

[Dean Pomerleau]

Here is a recent review article [1] on the CVD and neuroprotective effects of nattokinase.

From the article:

 

First, NK has potent fibrinolytic/antithrombotic activity.^3–6 In addition, in both animal and human studies, NK also has an antihypertensive,^7,8 anti-atherosclerotic,^9,10 lipid-lowering,^9,11antiplatelet/anticoagulant,¹² and neuroprotective actions.^13,14 All these pharmacologic actions of NK have relevance to the prevention and treatment of CVD. Indeed, NK supplementation has shown to enhance markers of fibrinolysis and anticoagulation and to decrease blood pressure (BP) and atherosclerosis in human subjects.^8,9,15–17

 

^--Dean

--------------------------

[1] Biomark Insights. 2018; 13: 1177271918785130.

 

Nattokinase: A Promising Alternative in Prevention and Treatment of Cardiovascular Diseases

 

Hongjie Chen, Eileen M McGowan, [...], and Yiguang Lin

 

Abstract
Cardiovascular disease (CVD) is the leading cause of death in the world and our approach to the control and management of CVD mortality is limited. Nattokinase (NK), the most active ingredient of natto, possesses a variety of favourable cardiovascular effects and the consumption of Natto has been linked to a reduction in CVD mortality. Recent research has demonstrated that NK has potent fibrinolytic activity, antihypertensive, anti-atherosclerotic, and lipid-lowering, antiplatelet, and neuroprotective effects. This review covers the major pharmacologic effects of NK with a focus on its clinical relevance to CVD. It outlines the advantages of NK and the outstanding issues pertaining to NK pharmacokinetics. Available evidence suggests that NK is a unique natural compound that possesses several key cardiovascular beneficial effects for patients with CVD and is therefore an ideal drug candidate for the prevention and treatment of CVD. Nattokinase is a promising alternative in the management of CVD.

Published online 2018 Jul 5. doi: 10.1177/1177271918785130

PMCID: PMC6043915

PMID: 30013308

[TomBAvoider]

Right. Btw., Dean, are you still fermenting your own natto? If you don’t mind, could you recapitulate your experience with this (or point to the relevant discussion), as not everyone has easy access to affordable natto and may want to try their hand at this. LA where I’m at has plenty, but I’m thinking of readers out there who might not even be chiming in.

The secretive world of Dean’s natto project may yet be revealed!

[Dean Pomerleau]

Tom, 

Yes, I did at one time culture natto using spores I bought on the internet and using black beans rather than soybeans. It worked OK but was kind of a pain. When I found inexpensive natto in the traditional styrofoam containers at the Asian market not too far from my house I stopped making it myself. But given my strategy of minimizing shopping trips during these crazy times, I'm considering culturing my own natto again. I'll let everyone know if I do. 

--Dean 

[Mike41]

Wow Dean pretty impressive even when compared to statins!

The carotid plaque size and CCA-IMT reduced from 0.25 ± 0.12 cm² to 0.16 ± 0.10 cm² and from 1.13 ± 0.12 mm to 1.01 ± 0.11 mm, respectively. The reduction in the NK group was more significant (P < .01) than that in the group treated with simvastatin (daily dose of 20 mg). Our data suggested that NK was a better alternative to statins, a commonly used drug to reduce atherosclerosis, and furthermore, NK could be a viable alternative therapy for cardiovascular attack and stroke in patients.⁹

Edited August 2, 2020 by Mike41

[Gordo]

At a glance it looks like most or all NK studies have used nattokinase supplements, one used 2000FU but these guys used 6000:

[A clinical study on the effect of nattokinase on carotid artery atherosclerosis and hyperlipidaemia]

With comparison to statin.

 

 

[Mike41]

It also appears to be quite non toxic even ate crazy high doses

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30742876/

[Gordo]

Just from a quick google I see: 

Quote

Nattokinase (NattoesseTM) is a Food and Safe Natto has been eaten more than 2000 years and is still being eaten in Japan. 100g of natto contains 0.1g (1000IU) of Nattokinase. 100g of natto is packed for serving a meal. Nattokinase densely exists in sticky substance covering the surface of natto beans

It seems like you’d have to eat 6 cartons of natto a day to get the same amount of nattokinase used in the above study that showed excellent cardiovascular results. Edit: actually looks like it would be 12 cartons (standard size)

Edited November 13, 2020 by Gordo

[Mike41]

https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/105/2/426/4637490
 

of particular interest in this well done study that controlled for confounders was that the higher the intake of natto the lower hemerogic strokes by a significant margin. There were also significant lowering of ischemic stroke and cvd dose based. This surprises me because natto is a blood thinner and one would expect an increase in hemorrhage.

[Mike41]

On 8/6/2020 at 10:12 PM, Gordo said:

Just from a quick google I see: 

It seems like you’d have to eat 6 cartons of natto to get the same amount of nattokinase used in the above study that showed excellent cardiovascular results. Edit: actually looks like it would be 12 cartons (standard size)

Right, but I am wary of taking full dose nattokinase based on these conclusions from the article Dean Pomerleau sent. I have familial hypercholesterolemia and require maximum top strength statins. 40 mg of Crestor. It would be playing with fire imo to start taking high therapeutic doses of nattokinase. A current study they cite that still remains unpublished for unknown reasons excluded current statins users. I’ll stick with a safe and Been eaten for 1000s of years Natto for now.

 

There are a few obstacles that remain to be overcome for NK to become more widely accepted as a drug, or drug candidate, for CVDs and these include establishment of pharmacokinetic evidence of the absorption and metabolism of NK in humans and the requirement for extensive studies to elucidate potential drug interactions between NK and other cardiovascular drugs, which are commonly, and concurrently, used in the prevention, treatment, and management of CVD in affected patients

 

Edited August 8, 2020 by Mike41