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Mike41

No wonder SCIENCE is scorned!

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https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31547615/
 

The Predimed study is referred to over and over again in so called scientific articles with claims That low fat diet is inferior to a nut or olive oil based diet Wrt cardiovascular risk. The low fat diet reference is 37% fat and a lot of it is saturated! This is pathetic and we can see from this one simpleton example why science is so often scorned, especially wrt personal habits like wearing a mask etc.

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I have no idea why you see science as being "scorned" and why you try to connect it to wearing masks?

The Predimed study basically says that substituting fats from EVDO and nuts is healthier than consuming most of your fat from animal products.

As to the "low fat" diet, it is low fat relative to the standard Western diet. Eating leaner meats at every meal and switching to a bowl of low-fat Yoplait with your margarine pancakes with tons of powdered sugar and maple syrup would qualify. It doesn't mean it's healthy, just like eating a vegan diet of potato chips and donuts is not necessarily healthy.  The only large population study of a truly low-fat diet I am aware of is the 1940s-50s Okinawan study, where fat comprised about 9% of the daily calories (and purple yams were the predominant source of calories).

As to the masks, there is no good study that supports the use of masks, especially outdoors.  This is why "no masks" has been the long-standing position of every major medical organization until the recent wave of rabid political attacks and letter-writing campaigns by political activists has forced reluctant changes in official positions, based on bad data, as was the case with the lockdowns.  Fear is the greatest political motivator and populists and extremists of all stripes know this.

But science is still alive and well, and it will live as long as free debate is not squashed by censorship.

Edited by Ron Put

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Ron Putt said:

I have no idea why you see science as being "scorned" and why you try to connect it to wearing masks.

my point was that science is a process and prone to failure which can be amplified by the news media and the so called scientists themselves. Hence the predimed fable that still prevails! Even the science people continue to quote it as an example of a low fat diet comparison group which is patently false and even acknowledged by the perpetrators of the phony claim. hence my comparison to masks. when we see science still fighting over low fat diets and a multitude of other subjects and going back and forth for decades then why should people believe masks Are protective. Of course I understand the innate complexity of NATURE and the monumental challenge to understanding how it works, and I deeply respect the scientific method. However that does not at all mean that the process is some kind of divine, holy path to truth. Not by a long shot!

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Yes, the "low relative to SAD" part of "Low" Fat Diet is doing a lot of work, and is thoroughly misleading. It's like being hit in the head with a 5 pound mallet, and saying that's a "gentle tap" because it's gentle "in relation to" a 6 pound mallet. Completely ridiculous. It's like those studies that claim ingested cholesterol from eggs does not raise serum cholesterol - then you look at the study and the participants are already ingesting tons of cholesterol from other sources, so adding eggs on top indeed does not raise serum cholesterol any further (studies often supported by the egg industry). Or those sugar studies supported by the sugar industry that use the same trick - oh, added sugars from drinks don't matter, except that those studied already shovel tons of sugar from other sources. Dishonest and undermining of public trust.

The state of nutritional science is in sad shape, and rightly scorned by large segments of the population.

 

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Good points Tom! I just this morning listened to a podcast where the guest on with Chris Kessler  used peanut butter as a vegan source Of protein in which he compared it to lean beef. He was obsessed with peanut butter and how much fat and calories it had compared to beef to get similar amount of protein. He was obsessed with peanut butter. He kept bringing it up as the vegan source of protein. I finally got fed up and figured he was a meat industry hack!

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No wonder SCIENCE is scorned! Otherwise-intelligent people believe what they read in highly-slanted, dishonest low-fat vegan blogs instead of actually reading the scientific papers those blogs falsely claim to summarize. I addressed this "crappy control diet" nonsense in my major post on extra-virgin olive oil and health, including PREDIMED: begin at "And the results can't be argued to be the result of a crappy control diet" etc.

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I found this a helpful overview. The authors are not without conflicts of interest, but the data, in my estimation, is pretty solid:

A Pesco-Mediterranean Diet With Intermittent Fasting
James H. O’Keefe, Noel Torres-Acosta, Evan L. O’Keefe, Ibrahim M. Saeed, Carl J. Lavie, Sarah E. Smith, Emilio Ros
J Am Coll Cardiol. 2020 Sep, 76 (12) 1484-1493.
https://www.onlinejacc.org/content/76/12/1484

Hope this stirs more interest than controversy!

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Hm, I am really not certain that the Mediterranean diet, with its fat and often fried fish, is the "gold standard" for CVD.  There are a lot of arguments against it, as it's been discussed before.

Anyway, there is a lot of marginal science in this field, some of it with clear conflicts, and some of it just sloppy.  But in the last few years it seems that there are a lot of journals in search of authors and now with Covid-19, there is a whole industry feeding the headline-hungry popular media and social apps.

So, this interview is kind of a timely cautionary tale, as some of the "standards" of the fringe social "sciences" are seeping into the loosening ground of more scientific fields:
 


About a third in, as he describes the published studies, it's both hilarious and a little scary.

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On 10/21/2020 at 6:39 PM, Michael R said:

No wonder SCIENCE is scorned! Otherwise-intelligent people believe what they read in highly-slanted, dishonest low-fat vegan blogs instead of actually reading the scientific papers those blogs falsely claim to summarize. I addressed this "crappy control diet" nonsense in my major post on extra-virgin olive oil and health, including PREDIMED: begin at "And the results can't be argued to be the result of a crappy control diet" etc.

Yes Michael, and red wine you also claimed for years was a wonder food or drink in moderation etc. etc. Now I understand you gave that up along with a couple dozen other things over time that  you once touted as almost miraculous! I’m waiting for the day you quietly add  olive oil to your “not taking it anymore list!” 

Another problem wrt EVOO as shown in Animal models, including with  primates show that mono fats are atherogenic even though they have a favorable effect on lipids!  Epedmiological evidence is NOT effective here because we are not comparing fats against a seriously low fat diet such as pritikin, esseltyne or Ornish diets which have been shown to literally reverse atherosclerosis. No olive oil diets have ever been shown to do anything other than to lower risk when compared to relatively high fat diets including predimed 37% so called low fat diet. So the epidemic of atherosclerosis is tempered by consuming so called healthy olive oil when compared to butters, cheeses, bacon, pork etc. etc. that’s hardly heart healthy. I am more interested in a diet that reverses or cures the major cause of death, brain dysfunction and disability for certain. 

Edited by Mike41

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