Supplements

[Shezian]

What supplements do you take?

What are your thoughts on B3 (nicotinamide) for anxiety and improved mood,  and magnesium for sleep and relaxation. 

 

Cheers 

Snez

Edited February 25, 2021 by Shezian

[Clinton]

1-Low calories/CR

2-Vegetarian/vegan wfpb diet (naturally plenty of soluble and insoluble fibre) and lower in protein (not much more than RDA).  Beans, greens, nuts, tomato paste or v8 juice, carrots, cruciferous veggies, etc.

3-Time restricted feeding; at least 16-8 or even OMAD

4-optimize any necessary micronutrients to RDA levels based on chronometer (or other) evaluation; I need some iodine, zinc, some B vitamins

5-some additional vitamin D3 and K2.  I am comfortable taking Jarrow K-Right which is 2000ius of D3 and plenty (but not above tolerable upper limits) of K1, k2-mk4, and k2-mk7

6-nicotinamide riboside 300mg, green tea extracts or lots of green tea (I take AOR active green tea; not insignificant amounts of all 4 catechins); you can take up to 3 caps per day; I take 1 or 2.  1500mg of glucosamine sulfate.

7-  2 tablespoons of ground flaxseed, some fish oil.  Small amounts of taurine, beta-alanine and creatine similar to Michael Raes regimen.

8- 100mg of ubiquinol.  Some melatonin before bed.  Sleep (and sleep hygiene) are critical.

9-resistance training and HIIT

This completely reverses aging 👍😁

For sulforaphane I am considering BROQ.  It is apparently made identical to the prostaphane drug made in France and yields over 10mg sulforaphane per capsule.  They look legit, and upregulating NrF2 is maybe the most valuable supplement beyond micronutrients since it upregulates NQO1 (therefore better at improving nad to nadh ratio than only increasing nad like N(R)), causes markers of inflammation to plummet ... if you could only take 1 phytonutrient; sulforaphane would get my vote.  Check out BROQ, etc, also good links to other sulforaphane refs.

   https://fastlifehacks.com/rhonda-patrick-sulforaphane/

Edited February 25, 2021 by Clinton

[Ron Put]

Clinton, as long as you don't suffer from Chron's, non-fortified nutritional yeast is a great and rather tasty source of B vitamins, except for B-12.

As to sulforaphane, I am not sure that supplements are the best solution since it's so unstable and I don't see independent verification of the potency of the off-the-shelf products. Growing broccoli sprouts is really easy and it takes about 5 days a batch, although they can smell and also have a garlic-like ability for the rather offensive smell to seep through your skin for hours after consumption :)

I've been experimenting with moringa and berberine to see if my glucose and insulin levels will change on my next blood test.

[Clinton]

Thanks Ron,

 I’ve been considering broccoli sprouts also.  Jed Fahey has tested a few sulforaphane supplements and Rhonda seems to be pretty knowledgeable about this topic.  She was previously growing sprouts but began ordering prostaphane mainly due to time coming constraints.  BROQ is apparently the same supplement; but it still requires 3rd party verification/testing.

clinton

[mccoy]

On 2/26/2021 at 7:28 PM, Ron Put said:

non-fortified nutritional yeast is a great and rather tasty source of B vitamins, except for B-12

Yes, I've been surprised by how easier it is to reach a 100% RDA (and over) of those vitamins when taking 15-20 grams of nutritional yeast. Also a good source of protein.

[Ron Put]

26 minutes ago, mccoy said:

Yes, I've been surprised by how easier it is to reach a 100% RDA (and over) of those vitamins when taking 15-20 grams of nutritional yeast.

Hah, that's just about the amount I consume daily. I use this.

[Clinton]

So if you buy the flakes (??) do you mix them in with a smoothie or oatmeal or how?

Ron, please post back about if berberine impacts your blood glucose, and moringa is something both professor Jed Fahey and Rhonda Patrick also take.

 I assume for the sulforaphane?

[Shezian]

Thanks so much, for great info. Will take it all on board. So, is that a no to B3 and magnesium supplements??? If so, why?

 

Cheers

[Clinton]

15 hours ago, Shezian said:

Thanks so much, for great info. Will take it all on board. So, is that a no to B3 and magnesium supplements??? If so, why?

 

Cheers

Shezian,

 If you are asking me, regarding any vitamin or mineral (micronutrient), the only way to determine if you have a deficiency is to track/input what you are consuming into the chronometer app and see if you are meeting the RDA level; then eat foods that can address any shortcomings or supplement.

Personally I have been taking a low-dose B complex; high intake of B-vitamins, or high dosing of any micronutrient is nearly always associated with some increased risk of some disease state that we’ve identified... or haven’t identified... yet.

Magnesium isn’t too hard to get RDA levels from diet; for example my main sources are spinach, rolled oats, almonds and soy, and these 4 foods are enough to meet RDA (for me).

From what I have seen from several very intelligent, learned and conservative folks on these forums is that some people like Michael Rae and Mike Lustgarten is to only take smaller amounts of B6,B9, B12 in order to decrease homocysteine levels which were ‘too high’.

Edited February 28, 2021 by Clinton

[Shezian]

I use chronometer app, and the only thing that shows a deficiency is iodine. I remember watching a program that fish and shellfish has the best absorption rates, and that seeweed is not as easily absorbed. Your thoughts on this please.

I also take low dose B complex on some days, but is it not better to take fortified Nutritional yeast instead?

Lastly l noticed many talk here about Melatonin, is this mainly to aid sleep or for healthy reasons?

 

Thanks so much for your help. greatly appreciated. 

 

 

[Clinton]

14 hours ago, Shezian said:

I use chronometer app, and the only thing that shows a deficiency is iodine. I remember watching a program that fish and shellfish has the best absorption rates, and that seeweed is not as easily absorbed. Your thoughts on this please.

I also take low dose B complex on some days, but is it not better to take fortified Nutritional yeast instead?

Lastly l noticed many talk here about Melatonin, is this mainly to aid sleep or for healthy reasons?

 

Thanks so much for your help. greatly appreciated. 

 

 

Hi Shezian,

I have not researched iodine, however based on a couple of experiences I've read about, I would avoid seaweed or other 'natural' sources.  You can cause serious issues with your thyroid; I believe Michael Rae was consuming seaweed (or something similar) at one time and had thyroid issues from it.  I just take half of the NOW brand potassium iodide capsules which are 225microgram (so half of that is 112.5 although you need to break the capsule into 2 pieces and ... well that isn't going to be exactly half 😉 ).  RDA is 150micro grams ... I also get 50 micro grams from taking 1 AOR MultiBasics Capsule per day.

Nutritional yeast is likely safer/more natural source of B-vitamins (assuming that generally speaking a food source is 'safer' than a supplement/vitamin) ... taking a B-vitamin is just my personal preference; I'm a little more liberal than most people on these forums with my threshold tolerance for safety perhaps ... that OR I just don't perceive there to be excessive risk with the B-vitamin that I'm taking; I only take 1 AOR MultiBasics capsule daily (the 'full 'daily 'dose' is 3 capsules) and even taking 3 capsules per day of this vitamin doesn't provide the excessive quantities found in the typical '50-50-50' B-complex's that are common.

As far as melatonin goes; personally I think melatonin is quite safe AND I consider sleep to be extremely important for overall health & longevity.  I take 2.5 or 3mg at night probably 5 or 6 nights a week ... but again this is just my view of it; it has some evidence of life extension in lower mammals; although I'm sure that according to Spindler they failed to control for caloric restriction and that they don't mean much.  

Regarding melatonin (or other supplements) I find one decent source that provides a good review (review of several peer-reviewed pubmed journals) is www.examine.com;

Or go to pubmed, type in the name of the supplement you want to review and type in 'review' afterwards; often-times there will already be a summary completed by a researcher which you might find useful; so for melatonin, type:  'melatonin review'

Edited March 1, 2021 by Clinton

[Shezian]

Hi Clinton

Having tried all kinds of supplements and am now a firm believer that food should the main source of your nutritional needs, as l find each time l take some kind of supplements, (my latest was magnesium,) even on a small dose l felt quiet unwell and lethargic and floaty brain fog. I took them mainly for sleep as l tend to fall asleep easily but wake up during the night. The only supplement l take at times is Zinc and mushroom for immune health.

So will try the melatonin. Hopefully l won't feel groggy the next day. 

Which one do you take and how much?

Regarding Iodine,  what about using iodised salt?

For B vitamins, l take the nutrilite Dual Action and one per day has just the right RDA requirements. When l type it in the cron, its perfect. 

Thanks for all the very helpful info, will be looking into  examine for the reviews. 

 

Cheers Snez 

 

Edited March 1, 2021 by Shezian

[Clinton]

Snez,

Iodized salt absolutely works for iodine; iodine deficiency was the reason it was added to table salt- check out the history of it on wiki - that works well because you might also need the sodium...   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iodised_salt?wprov=sfti1

 I believe that melatonin has some significant mitochondrial and neurological benefits in addition to helping one fall asleep slightly faster/improved (not a significant improvement but still...)

I take the Webber naturals 5mg extra strength and just nibble the tablets approximately in half.  They are sublingual so I place it under my tongue and it dissolves in a few minutes. I find that a full 5mg might make a person feel groggy.  In fact, breaking them into quarters is probably closer to the right amount.

cheers to good health!

Clinton

[Ron Put]

What's the consensus here on magnesium supplementation over and above RDA?

Mine is running at about 170% (716mg) and I am wondering if taking a supplement before bed would do any harm (or add any benefit in addition to the potential relaxation effect)?

[Sibiriak]

5 hours ago, Ron Put said:

What's the consensus here on magnesium supplementation over and above RDA?

Interesting question.  I hope someone else chimes in here with a comprehensive response.  I'm too lazy at the moment to attempt one myself.

Just a couple of points.

1) There's seems to be a general consensus that the calcium/magnesium ratio is as important as absolute intake amounts  (as it is with other minerals such as zinc/copper etc.).  Unfortunately, there is still a lot of disagreement about optimal intake levels and ratios.    See, for example  Calcium for Vegans and other threads.

2) Testing for calcium/magnesium biomarkers (serum, urine) may or may not provide useful information.

The following article is primarily focused on low magnesium intake, but has a lot of general information which may be relevant to your  question.

Essential Nutrient Interactions: Does Low or Suboptimal Magnesium Status Interact with Vitamin D and/or Calcium Status?

Quote

Magnesium physiology

In human adults, whole-body magnesium content is ∼24 g (1 mol). Approximately half of this magnesium is present in bone and the other half is found in soft tissue, with <1% present in blood. Serum magnesium represents ∼0.3% of whole-body magnesium (73). Although the measurement of serum magnesium is useful in medical diagnoses of clinically severe magnesium deficiency (74), it may not reliably represent whole-body magnesium status. The healthy human body tightly regulates blood magnesium concentrations, maintaining a “normal” range even in times of low dietary magnesium intakes and/or excessive magnesium excretion.

Both bone and soft tissue intracellular magnesium concentrations may be depleted (or depleting) while serum/plasma magnesium concentrations remain in the “healthy” range (75). Pig studies in the 1970s (76) showed that magnesium-deficient pigs had reduced intracellular magnesium from soft tissues and erythrocytes as well as reduced bone magnesium content, although serum magnesium remained at the normal concentration. This magnesium physiology appears to be similar in humans (75). Thus, in populations who have chronically low dietary magnesium intakes and high dietary calcium to magnesium ratios, such as in the United States (discussed later in this review), people who are nonsymptomatic with normal serum magnesium concentrations may have dangerously low tissue magnesium concentrations and decreasing bone magnesium content. This condition has been termed “chronic latent magnesium deficit” (CLMD) (75) and is further considered later in this review.

Magnesium status assessment

There is currently no simple, reliable biomarker for whole-body magnesium status, and the challenges of assessing magnesium status can impede the interpretation of human magnesium research. The currently available forms of assessment are described below.

 

Quote

Magnesium load retention test as a biomarker.

The magnesium retention test is cumbersome but is considered the most reliable research indicator of whole-body magnesium status. In this test, an intramuscular or intravenous infusion of magnesium (the magnesium “load”) is given to a subject, followed by urine collection for ≥24 h. The percentage of the magnesium load excreted in the urine is measured, and the percentage of the magnesium load retained by the body during the length of the urine collection is calculated. Subjects who are magnesium replete are expected to retain small percentages of the magnesium load, whereas subjects with magnesium deficits are expected to show larger retention percentages [...]

 

Quote

Value of serum magnesium as a biomarker.

Additional research is needed on the proper use of serum magnesium as a biomarker of magnesium status and the possible impact of CLMD [ “chronic latent magnesium deficit” ] . Studies are needed to address whether there are physiologic changes to bone or soft tissue that are associated with low magnesium intakes but normal serum magnesium concentrations. In addition, proton pump inhibitors are widely prescribed and these medications significantly increase the risk of hypomagnesemia in the general population (87).

Recent analysis of human magnesium balance studies suggests that serum magnesium may represent long-term, severely magnesium-deficient status, because it does not respond as rapidly or as flexibly to magnesium intake as does urinary magnesium (FH Nielsen, unpublished data, 2015). At this time, serum magnesium values can be considered a useful, but not an absolutely reliable, indicator of whole-body magnesium status when interpreting human magnesium research.

Urinary magnesium.

Urinary magnesium increases with high magnesium diets and/or oral magnesium supplementation and remains low during times of low magnesium intake (88, 89). A study by Joosten et al. showed that urinary magnesium excretion is an indicator of intestinal magnesium absorption and is thus a potential marker of CVD risk (90) that is perhaps more reliable than serum magnesium (2, 89).

 

Quote

Just as a calcium to magnesium ratio >2.6–2.8 can result in a detrimental effect, baseline calcium to magnesium ratios <2.0 may also have a detrimental effect. The Shanghai Women’s Health Study and the Shanghai Men’s Health Study are 2 population-based cohorts with >130,000 participants. These studies were conducted in a Chinese population in whom magnesium intakes are comparable to the US population; however, the median calcium to magnesium ratio (∼1.7) is much lower than the calcium to magnesium ratio in the US population (≥3.0) (114). In this population with very low calcium to magnesium ratios, magnesium intakes at or above RDA levels were associated with an increased risk of total mortality in both women and men. This is in contrast with US studies undertaken with a high background calcium to magnesium ratio (≥3.0), which showed decreased mortality when magnesium intakes were increased by 200–375 mg/d (7, 13, 115, 116).

Furthermore, in the Chinese studies, among those with calcium to magnesium ratios >1.7, a magnesium intake ≥320 mg/d was significantly associated with reduced risks of total mortality and mortality due to ischemic heart disease (IHD) among men and mortality due to all cancers among women. By contrast, when calcium to magnesium ratios were ≤1.7, magnesium intake ≥320 mg/d was significantly related to increased risks of all-cause mortality and mortality due to CVD and colorectal cancer among women.

In addition, one study measuring both serum calcium and magnesium found that elevated serum magnesium was significantly associated with a lower risk of high-grade prostate cancer (OR: 0.26; 95% CI: 0.09, 0.85), whereas an elevated serum calcium to magnesium ratio was associated with an increased risk of high-grade prostate cancer (OR: 2.81; 95% CI: 1.24, 6.36) adjusted for serum calcium and magnesium (50).

Another study with an examination of serum concentrations of calcium, magnesium, and phosphorus in a large population of whites and African Americans (27%) indicated that when serum magnesium is low and calcium and phosphorus are higher, this leads to a greater risk of heart failure (117). With the use of NHANES data, a recent study found that women who met the RDA for both magnesium and calcium had the greatest reduced odds of MetS (OR: 0.59; 95% CI: 0.45, 0.76). In men, meeting the RDA showed no association with MetS, but those with intakes in the highest quartile for magnesium (≥386 mg/d) and calcium (≥1224 mg/d) had lower odds of MetS (OR: 0.74; 95% CI: 0.59, 0.93) (118).

In skeletal studies, magnesium depletion was associated with decreased osteoblastic and increased osteoclastic activity (40), lower bone mineral density (BMD) (32, 34, 36), and fragility. Most studies suggest that magnesium intake favorably alters BMD. In a study by Orchard et al. (33) that used data from the Women’s Health Initiative, a lower magnesium intake was associated with lower BMD of the hip and whole body, as expected; however, this did not translate into an increased risk of hip or total fractures. In the same study, excess magnesium appeared to be detrimental to bone and fracture risk of the forearm and wrist. The authors speculated that greater physical activity, made more likely by increased magnesium intakes, was responsible for this unexpected result. It would have been interesting to see whether calcium intakes and calcium to magnesium ratios might have further explained this detrimental outcome of higher magnesium intakes (33).

Together, these findings suggest that any magnesium or calcium effect is dependent on the intake amount of calcium or magnesium, respectively, and thus on the calcium to magnesium ratio. Furthermore, dietary intake studies of either magnesium or calcium alone may be unwittingly confounded by the unmeasured calcium or magnesium. These findings are relevant to the US population (and other populations experiencing an increased Ca:Mg) because the calcium to magnesium ranges that show these modifying effects (i.e., <1.7 in the Chinese study and >2.6–2.8 in the US studies) are well below the current mean calcium to magnesium ratio in US adults, which was 3.1–3.2 in 2007–2008 (119) and increased to 3.3–3.4 in 2009–2010 (Figure 2) from food intakes alone (i.e., not including supplements).

It appears that too much or too little of either calcium or magnesium might not be beneficial and there may be an optimal range of human calcium and magnesium intake. Studies in this area might expand our knowledge of when supplementation with magnesium or calcium is helpful or detrimental. Long-term exposure to a diet with a high calcium to magnesium ratio, which is common in the United States, may lead to public health concerns and requires further study.

 

 

Edited June 6, 2021 by Sibiriak

[Saul]

I take 6 capsules of Jarrow Bone-Up daily.  This has calcium, in the form of calcium hydroxyappetite, magnesium and a host of other minerals, as well as supplying 1000IU of Vitamin D3.  I also have blood and urine tested semiannually, and see an endocrinologist annually, and a CR-friendly nephrologist semiannually.

  --  Saul

[Syl]

Without supplementation, do people here typically meet most all micro and macro RDAs in Cronometer?

Edited June 6, 2021 by Starlight

[Ron Put]

On 6/5/2021 at 11:19 PM, Sibiriak said:

1) There's seems to be a general consensus that the calcium/magnesium ratio is as important as absolute intake amounts  (as it is with other minerals such as zinc/copper etc.).  Unfortunately, there is still a lot of disagreement about optimal intake levels and ratios.    See, for example  Calcium for Vegans and other threads.

2) Testing for calcium/magnesium biomarkers (serum, urine) may or may not provide useful information.

Thanks, this helps.

I am unsure if I should do it, as I don't take calcium either, but my DEXA scan shows that my bone mass is currently fine.

 

On 6/6/2021 at 10:16 AM, Starlight said:

Without supplementation, do people here typically meet most all micro and macro RDAs in Cronometer?

I pretty much nail all, except vitamin B-12, biotin, choline and sodium. I am also slightly below RDA for calcium on most days.

 Since I am practically vegan, I take B-12 and don't worry about the rest (choline is usually about 350, which is below RDA but fine IMO).

I also take vitamin D occasionally.

[Syl]

On 6/7/2021 at 5:32 PM, Ron Put said:

I pretty much nail all, except vitamin B-12, biotin, choline and sodium. I am also slightly below RDA for calcium on most days.

 Since I am practically vegan, I take B-12 and don't worry about the rest (choline is usually about 350, which is below RDA but fine IMO).

I also take vitamin D occasionally.

Hi Ron, would you be able to share a screenshot of a typical day of meals? I'm vegan and am doing pretty well meeting most targets but definitely don't get 100% RDAs of everything all of the time. I usually come up as low in vitamins D,  E, some B vitamins (though I do use a vitamin B supplement to compensate), and various minerals. I also use a vitamin D supplement occasionally, or get appropriate sun exposure. Just looking for some new ideas!

[Ron Put]

9 hours ago, Starlight said:

Hi Ron, would you be able to share a screenshot of a typical day of meals? I'm vegan and am doing pretty well meeting most targets but definitely don't get 100% RDAs of everything all of the time. I usually come up as low in vitamins D,  E, some B vitamins (though I do use a vitamin B supplement to compensate), and various minerals. I also use a vitamin D supplement occasionally, or get appropriate sun exposure. Just looking for some new ideas!

Hi, Starlight. Here are grabs of my day yesterday, which is more or less typical:

 

[Syl]

On 6/9/2021 at 7:14 PM, Ron Put said:

Hi, Starlight. Here are grabs of my day yesterday, which is more or less typical:

Thank you!

[Ron Put]

Hi, Starlight. Note that I eat non-fortified nutritional yeast and then supplement with B-12 and occasionally D3.

I do eat a bunch of spices almost every day, such as nigella, cumin and amla, and I take olive leaf extract since I don't consume EVOO at home and don't want to miss out on all the benefits that some here swear by. I also take curcumin almost daily, as well as either nori or dulse for iodine.

I also take melatonin, zinc, Q-10, quercetin, lutein, and glucosamine on occasion, some more often than others.