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mccoy

glucose versus cholesterol optimization

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On 8/29/2021 at 12:45 AM, Ron Put said:

and I couldn't resist this personal tale ūüôā

Why I Quit The Keto Diet

Interesting anecdotal story from Drew Harrisberg. Please note that he has T1D which means his pancreas beta cells are completely nonfunctional and that he must use exogenous insulin otherwise he's toast. He agrees that a keto diet very high on animal saturated fats blunted his insulin receptors. He agrees that keto diet can be done on vegetable food although it's not long-term sustainable.

It's an interesting fact that after turning to a healthy vegan diet his insulin receptors became very sensitive, even with high concentrations of carbs.

I don't know if all his conclusions are valid in individuals without T1D, but basically, he makes a point.

In my case, I am not cutting carbs very low and even that allowed my BG baseline to drop to normal. My next step could be to reintroduce gradually low GI carbs and decrease fats, although I don't find very practical a VLF diet.

What is sure is that my adiposity was lower on a lower fats diet than on a lower carbs-higher fats diet, since the former provided less calories. In my personal experience, low carbs and ad-lib energy did not yield rippedness and six-packs.

Edited by mccoy

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Keto diets are potent because they virtually eliminate carbs. The problem with carbs is fat! And the problem with fat is carbs. We have enormous data on low fat high carb diets (not junk food carbs)! But the keto diet is not in the same camp; however we do have the Inuit populations and they seemed to do ok eating largely carb free high fat diets that were whole food based. My hunch is a proper Keto diet may not be terrible and for some may indeed be healthful. The key of course is a proper whole food based and very low carb keto plan. I doubt many are doing that. For myself I’ll gladly continue with a whole food plant based low fat diet.

Edited by Mike41

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32 minutes ago, Mike41 said:

however we do have the Inuit populations and they seemed to do ok eating largely carb free high fat diets that were whole food based.

They seemed to be ok for the short lifespan they were allowed. And, probably, their evolutionary adaptation to such an extreme diet involved a brutal selection with so many Inuit bodies strewn along the ice. Only those with the right genetical polymorphism survived to procreate and the spawn would eventually carry such polymorphism. Or die prematurely.

This is the truth that the acolytes of the paleo religion fail to aknowledge.

Edited by mccoy

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Hi Mike41!

I like your diet.  I don't think much of keto diets -- except for the morbidly obese.  A keto diet helps fat people lose weight.  If they ever make it to CR, your type of diet is, IMO, best.

  --  Saul

 

 

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https://dmsjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13098-020-00580-w
 

combination of k2 and Vitamin D effects

Conclusion

Individual or combined supplementation with vitamins D3 and K2 significantly decreases the glucose levels and ¬†% of functional pancreatic beta cells, while D3 and D3‚ÄČ+‚ÄČK2 treatments also induced a reduction in the uOC/cOC index. Only in the group with vitamin D3 supplementation, it was observed a reduction in undercarboxylated osteocalcin while vitamin K2 increased the carboxylated osteocalcin levels

Edited by Mike41

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23 hours ago, Saul said:

Hi Mike41!

I like your diet.  I don't think much of keto diets -- except for the morbidly obese.  A keto diet helps fat people lose weight.  If they ever make it to CR, your type of diet is, IMO, best.

  --  Saul

 

 

Thanks Saul I couldn’t have summed it up better!

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I've been following this moderate-carbs regime for over 3 months now. I renounced to all simple sugars like honey and brown sugars, to all cereals and starchy vegetables, eating sometimes half a peach in a day, sometimes modest amounts of legumes. My main source of carbs is lactose from fresh dairy products, mainly lowfat or nonfat. I'm eating vast amounts of vegetables and conspicuous quantities of nuts and seeds.

The result is that presently in the fasted state  I'm hovering in the BG range of  90-100 mg/dL. Not as good as I was expecting, but other conditions have changed, like now I cannot practice aerobic exercise because of important commitments, also I must eat hurriedly and cannot devote time to cooking or preparing food. I've lost 3 kg from my latest report, having now a BMI of 23.8, whereas previously it was 24.9. Adiposity has decreased a little, lean mass is about the same.

I believe the change to be significantly beneficial, considering the fact that this diet does not bring about spikes or transients in blood glucose. So, unless things change, the first step of the optimization seems to have been acceptably reached, now I'll have to worry about blood lipids. Next move will be to monitor the other variable, cholesterol and trigs. Didn't do that yet because I cannot do it that at home and need at least to go to the nearest pharmacy on an appointment, which is not easy presently.

Of course, there are possibly suboptimal aspects in this regime, like the largish amount of protein ingested and the sweeteners. I'd like to be so much a stoic as to avoid completely to indulge in the taste for sweets, but I'm not.

 

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5 hours ago, mccoy said:

My main source of carbs is lactose from fresh dairy products

I imagine that the vegetables are the main source of your carbohydrates.  And lactose does not give the bang that most simple sugars provide, I believe.

Seasonally speaking, the fruit pumpkin has less sugars than the vegetable carrots.

Edited by AlanPater

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Alan, in terms of net carbs lactose was more often than not the prevailing carb last summer (I consumed lots of yogurt and fresh dairy products). Now it may not be so, it also depends upon the type of vegetables, I'm not eating often carrots or pumpkins. I should resume tracking with cronometer to be sure now.

As you say, lactose does not give a significant glycemic peak, although the whey fraction in some dairy products (like milk and yogurt) does give rise to an insulin increase. In strained yogurts like Greek yogurt the casein fraction is prevalent and insulin secretion is less stimulated.

 

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At last, I was able to obtain a current lipid profile, after 4 months of a moderately low-carb diet. All units are in mg/dL

  • Total -C 173
  • HDL-C: 66
  • LDL-C: 95
  • Trigs: 58

I would say that the results are totally acceptable, although not glamorous (except the values of the trigs which are pretty low and suggest no insulin resistance). The theory according to which the main responsible for elevated cholesterol are saturated animal fats seems to hold true in my case. I'm eating copious amounts of fats, especially EVOO since I have access to one of the best products in the world, plus nuts and seeds, plus a moderate amount of animal fats in dairy products.

My current fasting glucose is in the range of 95 to 100 mg/dL, which is not at all glamorous, but I had to cease all aerobic activities in the last 2 months, and probably that contributed to an increase in 5 mg/dL. Looking forward to starting again walking and jogging.

From the above data, I may say that I reached a sufficient degree of glucose-Cholesterol optimization. The glucose baseline is below the prediabetic threshold and the regimen ensures a lack of significant peaks. The lipid profile is reasonable.

The experiment may go along with testing some supplements like berberine for glucose and red rice oil or amla for cholesterol (it seems to decrease LDL by 20 mg/dL in some cases).

What I miss more in this regime is not cereals, nor fruit, it's dark chestnut honey in my hot cacao in the morning.

Edited by mccoy

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6 hours ago, mccoy said:

Total -C 73

That can't be right.  173?   

Looks great overall.

Quote

The theory according to which the main responsible for elevated cholesterol are saturated animal fats seems to hold true in my case

ÔĽŅHolds true for me as well.¬† When I radically¬† reduced my cheese intake and increased olive oil/nuts,¬† my TC/LDL¬† plummeted. ¬†

I'm still consuming plenty of dark –į–Ľ—ā–į–Ļ—Ā–ļ–ł–Ļ¬† honey!¬† For me, calorie control/ maintaining a 21-22 BMI is the key to glucose control.

Quote

red rice oil or amla for cholesterol

Bergamot extract (from Italy!) is something else you could look into.

Edited by Sibiriak

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Sibiriak, yes, TC is 173,  thanks for underlining the error, I had to edit text and erroneously deleted a number.

I lost about 10 pounds since when my fasting BG reached a peak of 106 mg/dL (from a BMI of 25.6 to a BMI of 23.8) but it seems that fewer calories plus carbs control are barely able to maintain the baseline below the prediabetic threshold. That is, carbs control did not make a dramatic difference, probably because of the elevated protein and fats. Since I'm all right with the present regime, I'll go on a little further, then I'll try what happens by reintroducing some carbs, checking the response with a CGM. Hopefully by then I'll be able to resume a regular aerobic activity, which indisputably helps.

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After 8 months of carbs restriction, results are not glamorous at all, although the main goal of staying below the prediabetic threshold AND having a good lipids panel has been obtained.

Presently, although I reduced proteins and calories, my FBG is in the range of 95-100, but the total interruption of aerobic activity has resulted apparently in +5 mg/dL FBG, that is it seems that regular aerobic activity in my case would contribute to a 5mg/dL reduction of fasting BG, regardless of energy input decrease.

Also, my sleep is irregular and cortisol is consequently probably elevated, which contributes to preventing more optimal values.

Conversely, my current regimen avoids glucose spikes, which according to some narratives may be detrimental to health.

The reason why I haven't been able to reach more optimal values may be due to the consumption of proteins slightly in excess of requirement or to some insulin resistance due to the increase of intramyocellular lipids since I'm currently ingesting many, many predominantly healthy fats. 

One disappointment is that the reduced carbs regimen apparently caused a slight increase in the adipose pannicle around the waist, but again that may be due to the elimination of aerobic activity, which was regular up to 6 months ago.

In the end, I'm not missing the carbs, although I would almost kill for a cup of hot cocoa with chestnut honey!

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12 hours ago, mccoy said:

After 8 months of carbs restriction, results are not glamorous at all, although the main goal of staying below the prediabetic threshold AND having a good lipids panel has been obtained.

Presently, although I reduced proteins and calories, my FBG is in the range of 95-100, but the total interruption of aerobic activity has resulted apparently in +5 mg/dL FBG, that is it seems that regular aerobic activity in my case would contribute to a 5mg/dL reduction of fasting BG, regardless of energy input decrease.

Also, my sleep is irregular and cortisol is consequently probably elevated, which contributes to preventing more optimal values.

Conversely, my current regimen avoids glucose spikes, which according to some narratives may be detrimental to health.

The reason why I haven't been able to reach more optimal values may be due to the consumption of proteins slightly in excess of requirement or to some insulin resistance due to the increase of intramyocellular lipids since I'm currently ingesting many, many predominantly healthy fats. 

One disappointment is that the reduced carbs regimen apparently caused a slight increase in the adipose pannicle around the waist, but again that may be due to the elimination of aerobic activity, which was regular up to 6 months ago.

In the end, I'm not missing the carbs, although I would almost kill for a cup of hot cocoa with chestnut honey!

My experience w/ low carb (whether regular meat/keto or veg/nuts) is that my cortisol shoots through the roof and sleep tends to suffer. In my view, obtaining optimal sleep is just as important as anything else (and may be the most important dynamic), which is why I don't even count carbs any more and stick to calorie thresholds -- if eating a carb heavy meal at the end of the day, I never will consume it after 19. 

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14 hours ago, mccoy said:

After 8 months of carbs restriction, results are not glamorous at all,

I would suggest calorie restriction instead.  Aim for a muscularly-ripped BMI of 21-23.    That would be the primary step;  nutrient ratios, exercise scheduling etc. can be tweaked secondarily.

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11 hours ago, Sibiriak said:

I would suggest calorie restriction instead.  Aim for a muscularly-ripped BMI of 21-23.    That would be the primary step;  nutrient ratios, exercise scheduling etc. can be tweaked secondarily.

I'm almost convinced

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At this point, I cannot compare before and after results. As explained in another post, my lifestyle has abruptly changed. I cannot sleep regularly, I cannot do cardio but keep doing resistance workouts, even though brief ones. I also started taking berberine and Corean ginseng, which may be confounding factors. I introduced a little fruit (like bananas and oranges) but in modest amounts. My latest fasting BG was 95. 

My feeling is that, as posed by Sibiriak and alluded to in other posts, calories may govern blood glucose more than it is believed.

My present diet is mainly vegetables with liberal amounts of hi-polyphenols coratine EVOO, hi-polyphenols cacao powder, dairy products most of them lowfat or nonfat, many walnuts, never ate so many 'em before. I may eventually adopt a variant of Longo's longevity diet (a diet with a low glycemic load), which includes dairy products and a little fruit.

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11 hours ago, mccoy said:

My feeling is that, as posed by Sibiriak and alluded to in other posts, calories may govern blood glucose more than it is believed.

mccoy, did you take a baseline before starting berberine? What dosage are you taking? My own berberine experiment was a failure based on blood tests, and I still doubt its effectiveness. But I may be wrong. I did my berberine experiment during a period when I also received two doses of COVID-19 vaccine, and while at the time I did not seriously entertain the idea that the vaccine may have affected my blood measurements, maybe it did after all. I might try another round of berberine after I do my next blood panel.

I will again suggest that high-fat diets increase insulin resistance, which would then result in higher spikes when ingesting even whole carbs. It's a vicious circle falsely leading one to attribute the problem to carbs. Based on what I read, it makes sense to me.

Don't have the time to do better research, but here is a rat study that pops up at the top of the list:

Effect of high fat diet on insulin resistance: dietary fat versus visceral fat mass.

The purpose of the present study was to determine whether chronic high-fat diet (HF) induces insulin resistance independently of obesity. We randomly divided 40 rats into two groups and fed them either with a HF or with a high-carbohydrate diet (HC) for 8 weeks. Whole body glucose disappearance rate (Rd) was measured using a euglycemic hyperinsulinemic clamp. Firstly, we defined whether insulin resistance by HF was associated with obesity. Plasma glucose and triglyceride concentrations were significantly increased in HF. Rd was decreased (10.6+/-0.2 vs. 9.1+/-0.2 mg/kg/min in HC and HF, respectively) and the hepatic glucose output rate (HGO) was increased in HF (2.2+/-0.3 vs. 4.5+/-0.2 mg/kg/min in HC and HF, respectively). Rd was significantly correlated with %VF (p<0.01). These results implicate that visceral obesity is associated with insulin resistance induced by HF. In addition, to define whether dietary fat induces insulin resistance regardless of visceral obesity, we compared Rd and HGO between groups 1) after matching %VF in both groups and 2) using an ANCOVA to adjust for %VF. After matching %VF, Rd in HF was significantly decreased by 14% (p<0.001) and HGO was significantly increased by 110% (p<0.001). Furthermore, statistical analyses using an ANCOVA also showed Rd for HF was significantly decreased even after adjusting %VF. In conclusion, we suggest that dietary fat per se could induce insulin resistance in rats fed with chronic HF independently of obesity.

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Ron, I'm taking 500 to 1500 mg of Berberine per day, the baseline before was 95 mg/dL and now it's the same, but presently the conditions are more favorable to higher glycemia (like lack of cardio, irregular sleep). As soon as my stock is over I'll go without it and see the difference.

What I noticed about my high-fat diet is that it causes more adiposity than a lowfat, high carbs diet, probably because the less fatty diet also had less calories.

The above is contrary to the popular narrative that low carb high fat would make you lean and skinny automatically, regardless of calories. However, the above is consistent with the literature that indicates that a keto diet has no weight advantage over an isocaloric higher carbs diet.

 

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I decreased my weight by 7 kg  (15.4 pounds) in exactly one year. My BMI went from 25.6 to 23.1 presently. I lost adiposity but muscle mass as well, especially in the legs, since I cannot work them out due to lack of time. The decrease was natural, due to humoring my instinct to eat less, due to abstinence from creatine and lesser exercise hence lesser hypertrophy.

Apparently, losing that much body weight did not help with the fasting glucose values. Maybe, having stopped aerobics and having resumed eating more carbs (mainly beans and fruit) balances the weight loss. I'm not sure about the effects of berberine, another interference may be irregular sleep, due to my autistic son, so there are many factors at work.

Presently, I'd like to keep eating one or two bananas a day, or a home-made cantaloupe icecream, low fat and delicious. Too few carbs in my case compelled me to eat a substantial amount of protein, maybe too much.

Strategy for the future? I don't know, maybe I'm going to consult a diabetologist, but they are good to cure fully-fledged diabetes, not sure about prevention and optimization. Or maybe I'm going to take metformin for some time, it may be useful especially now in lack of adequate exercise.

 

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