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Gordo

Just curious, anyone have a plan, or preps for global pandemic?

Covid-19 Vaccine Survey  

26 members have voted

  1. 1. Your Vaccine Status is:

    • Fully vaccinated
      21
    • Partially vaccinated
      0
    • Not Vaccinated
      5
  2. 2. If not (fully) vaccinated, your reason(s) for your decision (check all that apply):

    • Not Applicable - I'm vaccinated
      20
    • The rapid vaccine development process makes me distrust them
      3
    • I'm worried about vaccine side effects
      4
    • I don't think I'm at much risk of getting a covid infection
      3
    • I don't believe a covid infection is a serious risk for someone like me
      4
    • I'm waiting until the vaccines receive final approval
      0
    • Fear of needles
      0
    • A medical condition prevents me from getting vaccines
      0
    • Bad reaction to the first dose of the covid vaccine
      0
    • I already had COVID-19 and don't think I need the vaccine for protection
      2
    • Vaccine not available where I live
      0
  3. 3. Are you OK with having your CR forum name included on a list of members who have/haven't chosen to be vaccinated?

    • Yes
      23
    • No
      3


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On 1/3/2022 at 7:54 PM, AlanPater said:

There are no demands people be vaccinated.  Vaccinations are promoted to safe guard society from the harms of COVID, and restrictions are mandated in this promotion, as well as to protect society from the harms.

There are very strong demands that people be vaccinated, that's quite evident just about everywhere, and Italy is merely parroting America and the CDC.

Vaccinations are sure promoted to safeguard society, but indiscriminately, unscientifically, and 'taking down' any contrary opinion, even though coming from experts and Nobel laureates (pls see the infamous e-mail exchange with Fauci and another public health figure). Such methods remind me of Benito Mussolini, the Italian founder of the fascist party. Only he was far more capable than today's politicians (until huge hubris took him down).

The Restrictions which are mandated are often unreasonable and decided with a political bias, not with real scientific reasoning. 

Again, I'm the first one who admired the way vaccines were developed so rapidly and efficaciously, but now this boosting strategy and war against positive cases is an aberration spawned by politicians resemblant to the obtuse bureaucrats of the Soviet era.

I'm sorry that things went adrift this way, and that tribalism overtook a serious topic that should have been discussed with scientific objectivity.

Also, I'm sorry that most western governments are regarding citizens as so many ants, not as so many individuals. The anthill mentality is a hallmark of communist china, not of the ostensibly free western societies.

Edited by mccoy

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McCoy, take all your shots and boosters; believe me you don't want to live in a recreation of soviet Russia (which may be becoming real now).  My parents left Soviet Russia to come to the US.

And, worse, you don't want to be a human robot in Ping's China.

   --  Saul

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Regarding vaccines and kids, the CDC just published their report recently on:

Adverse events among children ages 5–11 years after COVID-19 vaccination: updates from v-safe and the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) Dec 13, 2021

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-2021-12-16/05-COVID-Su-508.pdf

Covid deaths in children are rare but they do happen

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/data-shows-more-children-are-getting-sick-dying-covid-n1281616

We had a local high schooler die from covid just recently (overweight, unvaccinated teen).  But yea, more die from the flu, so there is that.  Still, not sure I see the reason to avoid vaccination if the vaccine is safe and all indications seem to show that it is.  Covid is hitting local schools pretty hard right now where I live, a lot of kids out.  The vaccine seems to be the difference between being severely sick for a week or barely feeling sick at all.  So even without the death factor, there are benefits to being vaccinated (kind of like the benefits of the flu vaccine).

 

Edited by Gordo

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On 1/3/2022 at 4:23 PM, mccoy said:

Some voices of caution against repeated booster shots are coming from very eminent 'dissidents' like Robert Malone, one of the inventors of the RNA vaccines, who has been recently been interviewed by Joe Rogan. His interview is pretty long (over 3 hours) and he articulates relevant concepts of immunology, molecular biology and vaccinology with strict scientific rigor,

I haven't listened to it, but I have noticed over the years that Joe Rogan has a lot of quacks on his show.  I'm not calling Malone a quack, but in just doing some quick google searches, he seems to have failed miserably in the "fact check" department: https://www.dailyo.in/variety/robert-malone-joe-rogan-experience-podcast-uttar-pradesh-crush-covid-using-ivermectin-fake-news/story/1/35097.html

It appears he said some really dumb things.  We talked about India's covid record in this very thread long ago, some estimate up to 4 million died, it was horrendous, but this guy thinks they had some secret cure that crushed covid?  Not likely.  Plenty of science has been published on hydroxycholoriquine and ivermectin and it was never shown to be a very compelling treatment or preventive.

 

India's Pandemic Death Toll Estimated At About 4 Million: 10 Times The Official Count

 

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9 hours ago, Gordo said:

t appears he said some really dumb things.  We talked about India's covid record in this very thread long ago, some estimate up to 4 million died, it was horrendous, but this guy thinks they had some secret cure that crushed covid?  Not likely

I agree on this and I read the linked articl, but fact-checking is presently very hard, since speaking the truth appears to be dangerous for many doctors in America and some facts are just concealed from Google searches.

As I wrote above, Dr. Malone may be right or may be wrong, but his theories should be rejected on the basis of a scientific debate, not by eliminating his account from social platforms. If I am contrary for any reasons to vaccines, I have the right of free speech, whereas this right seems not existing on social platforms and even in the professional practice.

I've listened to his theories about the dangers of successive vaccinations. He seems a little extreme to me, but, to tell the truth, why natural immunity is being so much underrated by public health officers?

Why no official voice is talking about the cost/benefit ratio, miocarditis and pericarditis, other possible adverse effects, why my son needs to be boosted after having been infected by the virus and having done two vaccinations on top of it, why I have to be boosted when I am double vaccinated, healthy, not over 65, never been seriously ill, hence with an efficient immune system? So they lied to me when saying that the vaccine would have protected me, or they lied now saying that the 3rd booster will protect me. They are pushing mass sterilization of the virus when the vaccine was never designed to do this, in a context were natural or vaccinal immunization sends down significantly the probability of serious outcomes of infection.

This is an example of the anthill mentality: everyone is an ant and must contribute to the good of the anthill, no debate, no discussions, no voice in the facts. This is not what I've been taught to be democracy.

 

Edited by mccoy

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8 hours ago, mccoy said:

theories should be rejected on the basis of a scientific debate, not by eliminating his account from social platforms.

I agree, if they want to tag an account with some kind of obnoxious "sticky note" that says "this person promotes lies and misinformation" that would be more acceptable to me than just outright banning/silencing someone.  That said it's easy to say "I don't believe in censorship" but when really pressed,  just about everyone DOES in fact believe in censorship (for example do you think a person posting kiddie porn on social media should be banned? How about someone that does racist rants all the time?  Someone that threatens others with violence?).  You could argue that antivaxers are indirectly killing people, this makes them culpable to some extent.  Its debatable what should be tolerated by a private company.  Some antivaxers have recanted on their death beds:

 
 
 

 

8 hours ago, mccoy said:

why natural immunity is being so much underrated by public health officers?

What does that even mean?  Everyone who has died of any disease in all history has relied on "natural immunity"!

If you mean public health officials should put much more emphasis on diet, exercise, and supplements (Vitamin D especially) then I agree with you, they should.  That doesn't mean they shouldn't promote vaccines however.

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1 hour ago, Gordo said:
10 hours ago, mccoy said:

why natural immunity is being so much underrated by public health officers?

What does that even mean?

I believe he refers to immune protection from infection versus vaccination.

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2 hours ago, KHashmi316 said:

This 1-min  tv spot and internet video was created and produced by El Salvador govt.  for mass viewership of its population.

Love it!

FYI: stumbled upon this guy ripping on Rogan today, this guy has actually been ON Joe Rogan's show... he is a comedian that does serious science shows with legit experts (unusual combination): 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Gordo said:

hat does that even mean?  Everyone who has died of any disease in all history has relied on "natural immunity"!

I meant, 'naturally acquired immunity'. That is, in people who were infected by the virus, memory cells which remember the spike protein and will have the system build-up antibodies when the protein returns in the system.

As I wrote earlier, my son got the virus, so he got naturally acquired immunity. On top of it, he is double-vaccinated. Now, that's not enough. He will need to do a booster dose. If this is not overkill, what is it?

Edited by mccoy

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2 hours ago, AlanPater said:

I believe he refers to immune protection from infection versus vaccination.

Right, thanks

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4 hours ago, Gordo said:

I agree, if they want to tag an account with some kind of obnoxious "sticky note" that says "this person promotes lies and misinformation" that would be more acceptable to me than just outright banning/silencing someone.  That said it's easy to say "I don't believe in censorship" but when really pressed,  just about everyone DOES in fact believe in censorship (for example do you think a person posting kiddie porn on social media should be banned?

A person posting kiddie porn should not be banned just on social media, he should be banned from society, perhaps left somewhere to die a slow and painful death.

A researcher with credentials, that's just a very little different maybe. In the Joe Rogan interview, he provided reasoned technical explanations. If these explanations are contrary to the all-out vaccination policy, then other competent people should retort and provide counter-explanations.

Anyway, I agree that Twitter is a mess and being banned by it is a blessing in disguise. Someone should explain this to Dr. Malone.

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4 hours ago, Gordo said:

You could argue that antivaxers are indirectly killing people, this makes them culpable to some extent. 

I would rather say that antivaxers are killing themselves, or more precisely, increasing their probability to contract serious illness, in function of their age, fitness, health and so on.

Presently, with all non-antivaxer population double or treble-vaccinated and or naturally vaccinated by the virus, this appears no more an issue of harming others. 

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Here's a study from Germany that quantifies the average amount of organ damage from covid on unvaxxed individuals from 2020 who had a mild course, not hospitalized. Looks like around 2% loss of function on lungs/heart/kidneys roughly, plus leg vein damage, and I'd assume the slight loss of IQ reported in the UK studies. So nothing too major, but OTOH it's not nothing.

 

Hamburg City Health Study: Even a mild course of COVID-19 leaves traces on organs

https://www-uke-de.translate.goog/allgemein/presse/pressemitteilungen/detailseite_115521.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US

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8 hours ago, BrianA said:

Here's a study from Germany that quantifies the average amount of organ damage from covid on unvaxxed individuals from 2020 who had a mild course, not hospitalized. Looks like around 2% loss of function on lungs/heart/kidneys roughly, plus leg vein damage, and I'd assume the slight loss of IQ reported in the UK studies. So nothing too major, but OTOH it's not nothing.

I agree that, if the results of the study are validated (not a granted thing) the damage is not irrelevant. Nevertheless, the vaccine will offer a protection from serious outcome in about 90% of the population, so the protection from mild outcomes is going to be far less.

In a few words, the vaccines are not going to protect in a significant manner from mild consequences which may however entail non-negligible damage.

Edited by mccoy

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10 hours ago, mccoy said:

vaccines are not going to protect in a significant manner from mild consequences which may however entail non-negligible damage

The paper said:

"Given that moderate SARS-CoV-2 infection may impact multi-
organ function in the longer term, comprehensive preventive stra-
tegies such as hygiene measures, social distancing, and vaccination
seem crucial."

Vaccines prevent infections.  Duh.

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46 minutes ago, AlanPater said:

Vaccines prevent infections.  Duh.

 Alan, sorry if I cannot understand if your answer is an ironic one toward the paper or toward my words.

Anyway, that's the very simplistic notion governments are administering to the population. Vaccines prevent infections.

However, what we all know is that vaccines do not prevent infections, or at least, the SARSCOV2 vaccines do not do that (except the brief antibodies spike they cause). They just abate the probability of illness. The probability of serious illness and death is decreased by about 90%. What is less known is the probability of mild illness, which sure is decreased by a lesser extent. So, vaccines provide pretty good protection against serious illness and death, whereas providing lesser protection against mild illness.

The above logically shows that the SARSCOV2 vaccines are not very protective against mild illnesses.

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The study referenced earlier, that found strong evidence that Omicron evolved in mice for over a year before jumping back to humans, has now been peer-reviewed and published [1]. Here is the upshot:

Collectively, our results suggest that the progenitor of Omicron jumped from humans to mice, rapidly accumulated mutations conducive to infecting that host, then jumped back into humans, indicating an inter-species evolutionary trajectory for the Omicron outbreak.

You may recall that in the original pre-print, the Chinese authors seemed to bend over backwards to avoid any hint that mice in question may have lived in a research lab, despite citing several studies (including some ongoing ones in the US) which are experimenting with serial passage of SARS-CoV-2 in laboratory mice. In the original concluding paragraph of the pre-print, they went so far as to stress the wild animal hypothesis:

Our study suggests that SARS-CoV-2 could have spilled over from humans to wild animals, and that the variants which successfully infected animal hosts could then accumulate new mutations before jumping back into humans as a variant of concern. Given the ability of SARS-CoV-2 to jump across various species, it appears likely that global populations will face additional animal-derived variants until the pandemic is well under control. Viral surveillance and sequencing in wild animals will likely help to prevent future outbreaks of dangerous SARS-CoV-2 variants.

Here is the newly published concluding paragraph:

Humans represent the largest known reservoir of SARS-CoV-2, and frequently come in contact with other animals, including livestock animals, pets, or wild animals that invade homes searching for food and shelter. Given the ability of SARS-CoV-2 to jump across various species, it appears likely that global populations will face additional animal-derived variants until the pandemic is well under control. Our study thus emphasizes the need for viral surveillance and sequencing in animals, especially those in close contact with humans.

Notice in the new final paragraph they expand the potential origin from "wild animals" to "livestock animals, pets or wild animals." Again no mention of laboratory animals, which seem of pretty obvious alternative possibility given that the authors are strongly implicating mice as the likely Omicron origin.

It seems like a distinct possibility that the researchers involved in this study wanted to hint at the possibility of lab mice as the vector for Omicron (by their citation of studies of serial passage / gain-of-function researcher with SARS-CoV-2 in mice), without coming out and explicitly saying that lab mice are the most likely origin. Perhaps they realize how incendiary and controversial it would be if they suggested a lab leak or deliberate release of a laboratory-evolved variant to explain Omicron's origin, despite this seeming to me to be the most likely explanation for their findings.

Very curious.

--Dean

--------------

[1] J Genet Genomics. 2021 Dec 23:S1673-8527(21)00373-8. doi: 

10.1016/j.jgg.2021.12.003. Online ahead of print.

Evidence for a mouse origin of the SARS-CoV-2 Omicron variant.

Wei C(1), Shan KJ(1), Wang W(1), Zhang S(1), Huan Q(2), Qian W(3).

The rapid accumulation of mutations in the SARS-CoV-2 Omicron variant that 

enabled its outbreak raises questions as to whether its proximal origin occurred 
in humans or another mammalian host. Here, we identified 45 point mutations that 
Omicron acquired since divergence from the B.1.1 lineage. We found that the 
Omicron spike protein sequence was subjected to stronger positive selection than 
that of any reported SARS-CoV-2 variants known to evolve persistently in human 
hosts, suggesting a possibility of host-jumping. The molecular spectrum of 
mutations (i.e., the relative frequency of the 12 types of base substitutions) 
acquired by the progenitor of Omicron was significantly different from the 
spectrum for viruses that evolved in human patients, but resembled the spectra 
associated with virus evolution in a mouse cellular environment. Furthermore, 
mutations in the Omicron spike protein significantly overlapped with SARS-CoV-2 
mutations known to promote adaptation to mouse hosts, particularly through 
enhanced spike protein binding affinity for the mouse cell entry receptor. 
Collectively, our results suggest that the progenitor of Omicron jumped from 
humans to mice, rapidly accumulated mutations conducive to infecting that host, 
then jumped back into humans, indicating an inter-species evolutionary 
trajectory for the Omicron outbreak.

Copyright © 2021. Published by Elsevier Ltd.

DOI: 10.1016/j.jgg.2021.12.003
PMCID: PMC8702434
PMID: 34954396

Conflict of interest statement: Declaration of Competing Interest The authors 
declare that they have no competing interests.

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22 hours ago, mccoy said:

vaccines do not prevent infections, or at least, the SARSCOV2 vaccines do not do that

Vaccines are very good at preventing all the infections that would have happened had people not been vaccinated.  Sure, they do not prevent all infections, but they prevent many,  many more that I want to risk getting.

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Alan, we should not mix up the infection and the consequences of the infection. Infection is the invasion or replication of a certain virus in the body. It does not always cause disease. Positive cases (presence of infection) are often asymptomatic (absence of disease).

As far as I've grasped from the hours of listening to the Columbia University professors of virology, the only vaccine able to avoid infection, that is to sterilize a possible host, that is to prevent any replication of the virus in the body is the Human Papillomavirus vaccine (HPV vaccine).

The SARSCOV2 vaccine does not prevent infection, rather prevents, with a degree of probability, the consequences of infection (COVID or Coronavirus disease).

The booster dose is apparently able to prevent infection or sterilize the vaccinated individual for a brief period of time, due to the high concentration of antibodies it causes. Of course, no infection, no specific disease. This prevention of infection has the drawback of being short-lived though.

The booster campaign is an aberrant concept of mass sterilization which conceptually speaking is probably a losing one, unless governments are willing to spend trillions and boost all populations once every week or other week, that is still unknown. Even this may not be enough, since it is probably impossible to boost citizens of a whole country at the same time.

The third dose may have a use in making up for short spacing between the first and the second dose; the ideal spacing would have been about 6 months, but it was about 1 month instead (sources: Prof. Vince Racaniello Columbia University in his TWIV podcast. Undisclosed virologists cited in the Peter Attia Drive podcast).

 

 

 

Edited by mccoy

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