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Gordo

Just curious, anyone have a plan, or preps for global pandemic?

Covid-19 Vaccine Survey  

25 members have voted

  1. 1. Your Vaccine Status is:

    • Fully vaccinated
      20
    • Partially vaccinated
      0
    • Not Vaccinated
      5
  2. 2. If not (fully) vaccinated, your reason(s) for your decision (check all that apply):

    • Not Applicable - I'm vaccinated
      19
    • The rapid vaccine development process makes me distrust them
      3
    • I'm worried about vaccine side effects
      4
    • I don't think I'm at much risk of getting a covid infection
      3
    • I don't believe a covid infection is a serious risk for someone like me
      4
    • I'm waiting until the vaccines receive final approval
      0
    • Fear of needles
      0
    • A medical condition prevents me from getting vaccines
      0
    • Bad reaction to the first dose of the covid vaccine
      0
    • I already had COVID-19 and don't think I need the vaccine for protection
      2
    • Vaccine not available where I live
      0
  3. 3. Are you OK with having your CR forum name included on a list of members who have/haven't chosen to be vaccinated?

    • Yes
      22
    • No
      3


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20 hours ago, Gordo said:

What's the point though? Do you think having 100% of people masking 100% of the time in public is going to stamp out covid permanently? Doesn't seem likely. A 36% reduction won't matter. I still kind of feel like almost everyone will be exposed eventually, we are just prolonging the inevitable. It's not that different from the last big worldwide flu pandemic (which never really went away). 

Right on. 

I would have a different story if it was about a virus like ebola but in this case, all those fallacies like the masks, social distancing & stay-at-home orders achieved nothing, incredibly counterproductive and created more chaos than needed, justifying  an incessant string of abuses.   I can tell you that the hospitals are overwhelmed year after year, covid or not, especially in vacation times.   Find something else.   

According to the newly-radicalized, Sweden's excellent outcome should have never happened.  Sweden is different from its immediate neighbors as it has way many more large & dense cities comparable to the ones found on the old continent, but their herd immunity strategy worked.    Their average death rate has been almost 0 for almost two months...  no resurgence of death rate unlike ultra-zealots countries like Japan and most of the western world!   People who defend the masks refer often to Japan as the golden standard....wrong.   Most of  those countries with low death rate have one thing in common.... their citizens are rather  in excellent physical shape.  Covid attacked the populations that are the most out of shape.  Even at that, Japan is not even  in the top tier of countries with the least death per M, it is now ranked 81 of 223.   Here, the YTD 2021 overall deaths (no matter the cause) is not only lower than their equivalent YTD 2020, but also lower than 2018 and 2019.... this comes from the very official The Institut de la statistique du Québec.  Still they act like if it was totally the contrary.  Then you have to figure out why people are still paid by our dear federal government TO NOT WORK until October, in a context that we are in a severe shortage of workers.... insanity.

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21 hours ago, Dean Pomerleau said:

Here is an useful visualization from Axios illustrating the point that Todd made last week, namely that the virus is continuing to rapidly mutate. It shows the prevalence of different variants in the US over the course of the year:

Screenshot_20210909-194626_Google News.jpg

It shows the Alpha variant being rapidly replaced by Delta in June, and the original Delta strain slowly getting superceded by several different Delta substrains over the past couple months.

--Dean

Hi Dean!

I had an interesting conversation a couple of months ago with Dr. Walsh, who holds a dual appointment in Infectious Diseases, both at UR Strong Memorial Hospital and Rochester Regional Health.  (He also headed the Pfizer vaccine trial here in Rochester).

I pointed out that Covid-19 is an RNA virus; and that these usually mutate quickly; but that it is a Coronavirus, and these tend to mutate more slowly than other RNA viruses.

Dr. Walsh said, "Yes and No":  "Yes", what I said was correct for coronaviruses that have been infecting the human race FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS -- which is "True" of all the coronaviruses with which we are familiar (including the ones that were new to  Westerners, but familiar to other parts of the world).

But the novel Covid-19 virus is new to humanity; it will take a long time for it to adapt to humans, and during that period, it will mutate rapidly.

Dr. Walsh certainly was 100% correct.

  --  Saul

 

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On 9/8/2021 at 4:50 PM, Dean Pomerleau said:

Large Study Confirms Masks Work to Limit COVID-19 Spread

So, a study published by Innovations for Poverty Action is the best you can offer to override decades of research that showed no benefits of masking to contain the spread of infectious respiratory diseases?! Remember, until the politicization of masking by the Left, virtually all medical authorities recommended against the wearing of masks by healthy people under most circumstances. Taken at its claims, this study claims a 9% reduction of "symptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infections." But it also claims a 5 to 7 percent increase in social distancing that is also likely to have had an effect. And based on this governments are forcing healthy people to wear masks outdoors, in schools, and on suffocating long-distance flights?

There are better studies that show no practical effect. Like this randomized controlled trial in Denmark:

Effectiveness of Adding a Mask Recommendation to Other Public Health Measures to Prevent SARS-CoV-2 Infection in Danish Mask Wearers

Despite the obligatory nod to the party line, they found no statistical differences. But studies that don't support the party narrative don't get equal coverage and the righteous never have to entertain any doubts while passing judgment on those "others" who are not properly branded with a mask.

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On 9/8/2021 at 8:43 PM, BrianA said:

Twitter thread and link to paper from July showing long term kidney damage even in non-hospitalized covid cases:

More FUD, completely oblivious to the fact that that renal issues are relatively common to infections of all kinds. A quick search bring many instances, including this one:

Influenza A viral infection associated with acute renal failure


On another note, right as Biden orders the "other" 80 million to be forced to vaccinate with a vaccine he and Kamala claimed that is untrustworthy before the elections, Fauci goes on CNN to say that he doesn't "have a really firm answer for you" to the question if those with past Covid infections have as good or better immunity than the vaccinated. But the Administration still orders the millions who have already had Covid to be injected with two doses of hastily approved vaccine based on presumably safe, but untested in the long-term, technology. Would anyone sane predicted that this is what the United States would be like a decade ago?

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1 hour ago, Ron Put said:

So, a study published by Innovations for Poverty Action is the best you can offer to override decades of research that showed no benefits of masking to contain the spread of infectious respiratory diseases?!


Reduction of secondary transmission of SARS-CoV-2 in households by face mask use, disinfection and social distancing: a cohort study in Beijing, China.
Wang Y, Tian H, Zhang L, Zhang M, Guo D, Wu W, Zhang X, Kan GL, Jia L, Huo D, Liu B, Wang X, Sun Y, Wang Q, Yang P, MacIntyre CR.
BMJ Glob Health. 2020 May;5(5):e002794. doi: 10.1136/bmjgh-2020-002794.
PMID: 32467353 Free PMC article.
Abstract
Introduction: Transmission of COVID-19 within families and close contacts accounts for the majority of epidemic growth. Community mask wearing, hand washing and social distancing are thought to be effective but there is little evidence to inform or support community members on COVID-19 risk reduction within families.
Methods: A retrospective cohort study of 335 people in 124 families and with at least one laboratory confirmed COVID-19 case was conducted from 28 February to 27 March 2020, in Beijing, China. The outcome of interest was secondary transmission of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) within the family. Characteristics and practices of primary cases, of well family contacts and household hygiene practices were analysed as predictors of secondary transmission.
Results: The secondary attack rate in families was 23.0% (77/335). Face mask use by the primary case and family contacts before the primary case developed symptoms was 79% effective in reducing transmission (OR=0.21, 95% CI 0.06 to 0.79). Daily use of chlorine or ethanol based disinfectant in households was 77% effective (OR=0.23, 95% CI 0.07 to 0.84). Wearing a mask after illness onset of the primary case was not significantly protective. The risk of household transmission was 18 times higher with frequent daily close contact with the primary case (OR=18.26, 95% CI 3.93 to 84.79), and four times higher if the primary case had diarrhoea (OR=4.10, 95% CI 1.08 to 15.60). Household crowding was not significant.
Conclusion: The study confirms the highest risk of transmission prior to symptom onset, and provides the first evidence of the effectiveness of mask use, disinfection and social distancing in preventing COVID-19. We also found evidence of faecal transmission. This can inform guidelines for community prevention in settings of intense COVID-19 epidemics.

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2 hours ago, AlanPater said:

Reduction of secondary transmission of SARS-CoV-2 in households by face mask use, disinfection and social distancing: a cohort study in Beijing,

OK, so you found another shoddy study supporting your belief. Congratulations!

But first, you and Dean are missing the point here: What gives the state the right to force everyone to wear masks, when the scientific evidence for a practical benefit is at best flimsy, and there was no public debate on the issue? Just like there wasn't a debate before the US and many Western governments abandoned long-standing medical practices set in place, and locked us all up, trampling over civil rights and crashing the economy and the livelihood of many.

Second, aren't you noticing that virtually all of these often laughable studies supporting the use of masks sprung up in 2020, when the Left made masks into a political issue and masking became a partisan battle cry, separating those masked from the "others?"

Before the politicization of masks, the prevailing scientific opinion was lined up against masks, and prolonged use was considered harmful:

Adverse Effects of Prolonged Mask Use among Healthcare Professionals during COVID-19

"Prolonged use of N95 and surgical masks by healthcare professionals during COVID-19 has caused adverse effects such as headaches, rash, acne, skin breakdown, and impaired cognition in the majority of those surveyed."

The bottom line is, if you or Dean, or anyone else, wishes to wear a mask 24 hours a day, knock yourself out. We may disagree on what theory is better supported, but I am not arguing that you should be forced to go maskless. And I personally would oppose any arbitrary rule that forces you to do so.

Yet the Left has used the power of the state to impose arbitrary rules on all of us, and its supporters are all too happy to cheer on, with religious zeal, such unprecedented restrictions of civil rights.

Edited by Ron Put

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20 hours ago, AlanPater said:

Face mask use by the primary case and family contacts before the primary case developed symptoms was 79% effective in reducing transmission (OR=0.21, 95% CI 0.06 to 0.79). 
Conclusion: The study confirms the highest risk of transmission prior to symptom onset, and provides the first evidence of the effectiveness of mask use,

So this was looking at transmission within families, people living in the same household, and they found that wearing masks was really effective but only when no one is sick (not showing symptoms) so the conclusion is that you should be wearing a mask 24/7 inside your own house whenever there are other family members around?  STOP THE MADNESS!!  Seriously, has everyone gone off the rails?  Is all the mask wearing making people even stupider than usual?

From Ron's above study, masking can cause headaches, difficulty breathing, and impaired cognition. It also interferes with vision, communication, and thermal equilibrium. Policy makers are likely impaired at this point (they may have to be replaced).

Edited by Gordo

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I can't imagine wearing a mask at home with my family.

My oldest daughter, (who is an MD/PhD about to start working for the CDC, researching fungal disease) came to us with her husband, two young children (2 and 5) to celebrate the Rosh Ha Shona Holiday with us.  She was very sick --  considering cancelling her flight from her very bad sickness (cold? flu? [fully vaccinated, and having had Covid before, so not Covid]).  She was afraid of infecting her mother and me.  We insisted that she come -- and they all did.

No one even thought of wearing a mask, or avoiding hugging.

  --- Saul

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Also.I'm now reading "Brave New World" on my kindle.  I hope some of the crazzies aren't trying to create their own version of "Utopia" here in the US.

  --  Saul

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Did anyone else see this article from NPR?   I Got A 'Mild' Breakthrough Case. Here's What I Wish I'd Known

Yes, it’s an N of 1, but still I think the advice is good.

Reporter received second Pfizer vaccine in April.  Early August test confirmed covid-19.  Symptoms that led to the test were fatigue and headache.

Two rapid antigen tests (a day apart) were negative but the PCR test was positive.  [Personal note:  The same happened with my daughter – Friday morning, she and some friends all took a quick test and all were negative.  So they had a delightful dinner Friday evening without masks or other concerns.  Sunday morning she was woken up by a call from one of those friends who had a pcr test on Thursday and had just received a positive result of the more reliable test.  We’re waiting for her results now.]

The reporter was miserable for five days but was told it probably would have been much worse without the vaccine.  Although he said it took about a month for a full recovery.

His recommendations:

Remember the vaccine was approved to reduce the likelihood of serious illness or death.

The initial euphoria about the efficacy of the vaccine led the CDC to say drop the mask if you’re vaccinated.  But we should continue precautions. 

Delta appears to have increased the likelihood of breakthrough infections.

Don't leave it all up to the vaccine. Wear masks, stay away from big gatherings with unvaccinated people, cut down on travel, at least until things calm down.

[Second personal note:  I still go to the gym but I do wear a mask.  Only a few others do, but we do say “Thank you for wearing a mask.” to each other.] 

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Severe Covid-19 may make autoimmune diseases more likely.

Study links severe COVID-19 to increase in self-attacking antibodies

Hospitalized COVID-19 patients are substantially more likely to harbor autoantibodies—antibodies directed at their own tissues or at substances their immune cells secrete into the blood—than people without COVID-19

Upward of 60% of all hospitalized COVID-19 patients, compared with about 15% of healthy controls, carried anti-cytokine antibodies, the scientists found. This could be the result of immune-system overdrive triggered by a virulent, lingering infection.

Within a week after checking in at the hospital, about 20% of these patients had developed new antibodies to their own tissues that weren't there the day they were admitted

It could be that inflammatory shock to the systems of patients with severe COVID-19 caused a jump in previously undetectable, and perhaps harmless, levels of autoantibodies these individuals may have been carrying prior to infection.

It's possible that, in the course of a poorly controlled SARS-CoV-2 infection—in which the virus hangs around for too long while an intensifying immune response continues to break viral particles into pieces—the immune system sees bits and pieces of the virus that it hadn't previously seen. If any of these viral pieces too closely resemble one of our own proteins, this could trigger autoantibody production.

The finding bolsters the argument for vaccination, he added. Vaccines for COVID-19 contain only a single protein—SARS-CoV-2's so-called spike protein—or the genetic instructions for producing it. With vaccination, the immune system is never exposed to—and potentially confused by—the numerous other novel viral proteins generated during infection.

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11 minutes ago, corybroo said:

With vaccination, the immune system is never exposed to—and potentially confused by—the numerous other novel viral proteins generated during infection.

I doubt it but if that is true then the vaccinated will have zero protection from new strains that evade the narrow immune response produced by the vaccines.

(edit)

Rereading this I guess what they are saying only applies to the vaccination itself and not what happens when a vaccinated person gets exposed to the virus.  In the case of exposure my expectation is the immune response will be broadened but not as much as in the unvaccinated.  To what degree vaccines impede the development of natural immunity I think is a vital question for which I've yet to see compelling data.

Edited by Todd Allen

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Worth a read!

Vaccinating people who have had covid-19: why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

BMJ 2021; 374 doi: https://doi.org/10.1136/bmj.n2101 (Published 13 September 2021)Cite this as: BMJ 2021;374:n2101

he US CDC estimates that SARS-CoV-2 has infected more than 100 million Americans, and evidence is mounting that natural immunity is at least as protective as vaccination. Yet public health leadership says everyone needs the vaccine. Jennifer Block investigates

Edited by Matt
typo

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4 hours ago, corybroo said:

I still go to the gym but I do wear a mask.  Only a few others do, but we do say “Thank you for wearing a mask.” to each other.] 

Yep, I heard the story, part of NPR's propaganda stream alternating Covid horror tales, and critical theory programming. Your personal note is the reason the pandemic was turned into a political weapon by the Left. To instill fear and create an enemy to unite the "us" and separate them from the "others." Religions and cults do it too, because it works on many people. It's why some wear masks in their cars, while alone...

3 hours ago, corybroo said:

Hospitalized COVID-19 patients are substantially more likely to harbor autoantibodies

And yet another example of how easy it is to create fear by framing a story. Of course, just like with virtually all of these scary stories about Covid, the reality is that most viruses and other infections are known to cause similar latent effects. Here is an even scarier article about influenza:

Autoimmune nature of influenza atherogenicity

It has been observed during influenza epidemics and in a number of population and clinical trials that this prevalent viral infection was associated with increased death rates from cardiovascular diseases. The clinical and experimental data that may explain accelerated coronary atherosclerosis in influenza infection with implications involving autoimmune mechanisms are analyzed in this article. Both cellular and humoral autoimmune modes could be proposed to participate in the onset or progression of atheromatous lesions due to influenza infection.

 

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On 9/14/2021 at 4:20 PM, Saul said:

Also.I'm now reading "Brave New World" on my kindle.  I hope some of the crazzies aren't trying to create their own version of "Utopia" here in the US.

Hah, I just reread it, too :) Reread "1984" before it -- I had forgotten how good it is at describing how totalitarianism changes society. I fear we are getting a bit too close to the possibility of such a change.

BTW, flu shots are available. Despite what NPR and the rest imply, the flu kills a lot more kids and young adults than Covid. Get your shot.

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20 hours ago, Ron Put said:

Yep, I heard the story, part of NPR's propaganda stream alternating Covid horror tales, and critical theory programming.

Denying real dangers can be hazardous.  It would be nice if we could wish it away, "just like a miracle."

From the news over the last few weeks:

First, the person in FL who identified himself as Mr. Anti-Vax.

Conservative radio host who called himself ‘Mr. Anti-Vax’ dies after COVID-19 battle

Second, the person in TN who produced the song Vax Man (using the Beatles tune).

"Phil got it wrong"; Family encourages vaccination after Phil Valentine's COVID-19 death

Third, in Co.

Another radio host who urged listeners to boycott COVID-19 vaccines dies from COVID-19

Those are the three that I’ve seen in the last couple of weeks, the last article states that there are at least two more I haven’t heard of.   Enyart is at least the fifth anti-vaccine talk show host to die from complications of COVID-19 in recent weeks.

These were influential people.  I respect the fact that they were willing to risk their lives for what they said.  I deeply regret the consequences for at least some of their listeners.

 

20 hours ago, Ron Put said:

And yet another example of how easy it is to create fear by framing a story. Of course, just like with virtually all of these scary stories about Covid, the reality is that most viruses and other infections are known to cause similar latent effects

I apologize if I stated that the auto immunity issue is unique to Covid-19.  I think everyone would be amazed if it were.  I posted that article because it gives some benefits to getting the vaccine before catching Covid-19.  

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On 9/15/2021 at 7:55 PM, Ron Put said:

Here is an informative and thoughtful interview with Martin Kulldorff on the topic of Covid:
 

 

I thought he made a reasoned case. It’s certainly not an easy call as I pondered at least a year ago on this same most popular ever thread!

And below is a MUCH DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE!

 

Edited by Mike41

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On 9/15/2021 at 7:52 PM, Ron Put said:

Hah, I just reread it, too 🙂 Reread "1984" before it -- I had forgotten how good it is at describing how totalitarianism changes society. I fear we are getting a bit too close to the possibility of such a change.

BTW, flu shots are available. Despite what NPR and the rest imply, the flu kills a lot more kids and young adults than Covid. Get your shot.

I just got my flu shot -- the fluzone quadrivalent, recommended for people over 65 (same flu vaccine that I got last year).

  --  Saul

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On 9/15/2021 at 6:55 PM, Ron Put said:

Here is an informative and thoughtful interview with Martin Kulldorff on the topic of Covid:

Here is Dr. Peter McCullough quite alarmed about the way these vaccines are being used.  When people speak with certainty it usually puts me off, but I am concerned he might be mostly right.

https://www.bitchute.com/video/95lJP00jEZhu/

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There appear to be some limitations to post-infection immunity.

Antibodies from original strain COVID-19 infection don't bind to variants

People infected … early in the pandemic produced a consistent antibody response, making two main groups of antibodies to bind to the spike protein on the virus's outer surface. However, those antibodies don't bind well to newer variants

There are also questions about the efficacy of the vaccine for newer strains that are currently evolving.

The finding has implications for the ability of new variants to reinfect people who contracted earlier versions of the virus, as well as for the continuing efficacy of vaccines and the design of possible vaccine boosters

Some antibodies may continue to provide some immune response.

Even though this antibody response is very common with the original strain, it doesn't really interact with variants …  Some antibodies should still be effective—the body makes antibodies to many parts of the virus, not only the spike protein—but the particular groups of antibodies that we saw in this study will not be as effective.

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1 hour ago, corybroo said:

the spike protein

The spike object on the novel coronavirus is not a protein,  It's a structure, containing many proteins.

  --  Saul

 

 

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I''m still not sure what to think about boosters, but J&J is in the news today as they just came out with more info about their particular booster data:

J&J: Booster Shot Increases Protection Against Coronavirus

A booster shot of Johnson & Johnson's coronavirus vaccine generates a strong immune response, the company announced on Tuesday.  

The company said that clinical trial data from the U.S. shows that a booster shot given two months after the first dose increases protection against moderate to severe coronavirus to 94%. While an extra dose after two months generates a four-fold increase in antibodies, a booster shot given at six months provides a 12-fold increase in antibodies, the company said in a press release.

J&J said it submitted the data, which has not been published in a peer-reviewed journal, to the Food and Drug Administration.

 

image.png

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