Are pretty much all viral/bacterial diseases pro-aging?

[BrianA]

Here we have another disease proven to increase the body's biological age, in this case quite significantly. Now that science has epigenetics-based clocks it can use to easily test and compare study participants' biological ages, we are starting to learn which environmental and lifestyle factors accelerate aging. It is starting to appear to me that many viral and bacterial infections seem to be pro-aging, for example studies of covid infections at this point have described it as increasing biological brain aging by around 1 year. So is this going to be proven out in the future that pretty much all infections are pro-aging, and is this going to be part of the explanation as to why individuals of higher financial status tend to live longer? (less exposure to disease)

 

"Researchers found that the cells of humans and animals who have recovered from tuberculosis had prematurely aged up to 12 to 14 years. It's possible that this premature cellular aging is one reason why survivors of tuberculosis have a high risk of mortality."

Tuberculosis induces premature cellular aging

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/03/220324130315.htm

[Saul]

Clearly, being infected ny organisms that make you sick is not good -- and unlikely to extend your lifespan (and definitely not extend your healthspan.

But, if you have a healthy, calorie restricted diet, good exercise and a good social life, it's likely to boost your immune system.  If you are exposed to infectious agents, you're enhanced immune system is likely to fight them off, and you're likely to develop natural immunity to the organism -- that's probably better than locking yourself away from possible contact with infectious agents.

So a mor open lifestyle is probably better.  (And of course, IMO, I wouldn't hesitate to take vaccines to infectious agents as they are approved (or even when they are in Phase 3).

  --  Saul

 

[BrianA]

I've often heard this saying that infections make the immune system stronger, but in an overall sense is that true when disease like covid or even apparently the flu destroy CD4 + T cells?

Yes, your immune system afterwards is better able to fight off that particular infectious agent again, but is its ability to fight off other diseases or even things like cancer reduced overall?

[Mike Lustgarten]

Yep, and it's not just bacteria or viruses (fungi, too), but also their metabolic products that increase during aging and that negatively impact health:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01G48A88A

[BrianA]

"Based on our findings, we speculate that the accumulation of epigenetic aging and telomere attrition after SARS-CoV-2 infection might contribute to the post-COVID-19 syndrome, and irreversible epigenetic aging might be served as a biomarker for the risk of developing post-COVID-19 syndrome"

 

Accelerated biological aging in COVID-19 patients

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-29801-8

[BrianA]

"The point is: As a society, we don’t consider the role infectious disease can play in other types of chronic diseases, despite mounting evidence."

 

Endemic Pathogens Are Making You Crazy And Then Killing You: Toxoplasmosis Spotlight

https://www.hardtowrite.com/pathogens/

[BrianA]

"Of the seven herpesviruses examined, HSV2 and CMV were associated with incidence of (pre)diabetes among individuals with normal glucose tolerance at baseline that were independent of other risk factors. Individuals with HSV2 were 59% more likely to develop (pre)diabetes than those who were seronegative, while CMV infection was associated with a 33% increased (pre)diabetes incidence."

 

Herpesvirus infection may increase the risk of developing diabetes

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/05/220512092658.htm

[BrianA]

The flu virus directly attacks the heart, and getting vaccinated reduces the damage/heart attacks/etc.

 

Adults vaccinated against flu at lower risk for heart complications, study finds

https://www.upi.com/Health_News/2022/04/29/flu-shot-heart-disease-risk-study/7881651238179/

 

Flu causes cardiac complications by directly infecting the heart

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/05/220511142354.htm

[BrianA]

Pathogenic Viruses Have Evolved to Provoke Cellular Senescence

https://www.fightaging.org/archives/2022/05/pathogenic-viruses-have-evolved-to-provoke-cellular-senescence/

 

Virus-Induced Membrane Fusion in Neurodegenerative Disorders

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fcimb.2022.845580/full

[BrianA]

The Inflammatory Burden of Infection Accelerates Hematopoietic Aging

https://www.fightaging.org/archives/2022/08/the-inflammatory-burden-of-infection-accelerates-hematopoietic-aging/

[mccoy]

 

 

 

On 5/18/2022 at 4:30 AM, BrianA said:

Pathogenic Viruses Have Evolved to Provoke Cellular Senescence

https://www.fightaging.org/archives/2022/05/pathogenic-viruses-have-evolved-to-provoke-cellular-senescence/

This concept is supported by novel studies that found postinfectious cognitive dysfunction in several viral illnesses, including human immunodeficiency virus-1, herpes simplex virus-1, and SARS-CoV-2. 

Sentences like are very generic and sometimes belie a research bias. I wonder how many causative effects (virus vs. cognitive dysfunction) have been proven with statistical reliability. Also: in animals? In humans? For how long post-infection?

Edited August 13, 2022 by mccoy

[BrianA]

A new study claims that two common viruses trigger Alzheimer's

A group of researchers has claimed that chickenpox and herpes viruses can team up to cause Alzheimer's.

https://interestingengineering.com/science/study-common-viruses-alzheimers

[Matt]

Having a chronic dental infection (abscess) under tooth from a failed root canal has made me think over the past few months how much of an effect this can have on the immune system and general health over time. I've had it for a long time now because of being unable to see a dentist (2 cancelled appointments over the past 1 year on the NHS dentist and both dentists left the practice. No new dentist until October 5th).

My latest blood tests showed high C reactive protein (3 mg/L) but low ESR. Neutrophils seem quite a bit higher than usual as well.

Apparently, it's fairly common to have asymptomatic dental infections that don't show for months or years. Mine, for the most part has been asymptomatic for over a year until the past few days. 

I started taking Jarrow's Beta Glucan (yeast derived) at 1000 mg and within 2 days my tooth started to get really painful and in the morning it's painful to bite (feels like the tooth is pushed up).

I've been holding off going private due to lack of money right now, but think I'm just gonna go to an emergency dentist and get it pulled. Not worth keeping in and taking antibiotics over and over. It's my lower right premolar. Unfortunately, I'm already missing a tooth behind that (2nd molar), so I'm gonna have a huge gap.

A lot of the damage was done when I was younger. Dentist did tell me that the deep fillings I required might end up killing the teeth and I'll probably lose them. Seems he was right.

It seems root canal treatment always fail for me. One tooth (incisor) got damaged in training before and died, requiring root canal (failed and replaced with a bridge). 2nd bottom right molar had a root canal after deep filling caused it to die and that RC failed. Now this premolar tooth root canal also failed and needs retreatment by an endodontist (can't afford) or needs to be pulled.

Hopefully I'll be rich from crypto in 2026 and maybe then I can get a dental implant and bridge lol. 

Why did I not just look after my teeth when was younger. I'm paying for it now. 😐

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by Matt

[mccoy]

On 9/4/2022 at 2:52 PM, Matt said:

Why did I not just look after my teeth when was younger. I'm paying for it now

If it may be of any solace to you, I practiced just about the same carelessness. In my case the results were lots of cavities. And it might have been worse.

Back to pathogens, even apparently slight dental negligence like letting plaque accumulate apparently may result in a detrimental (to the whole body) proliferation of germs.

[BrianA]

"Infections treated with specialty hospital care in early- and mid-life are associated with an increased subsequent risk of Alzheimer's (AD) and Parkinson's diseases (PD), but not amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS), according to a new study."

 

Repeated infections associated with increased risk of some neurodegenerative diseases

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/09/220915142440.htm

[IgorF]

being sick again after 3+years of reduced contacts due to covid and also after listening to one of the last Attia's podcast with Michael Gershon where they also mentioned VZV (this brought me a recoll how wide herpesviruses are spread in the modern world) I came again to the thought that the phenomena of the blue zones is formed with lucky heredity _and_ a limited set of circulating patogens, so people have less total load on their immune systems and less debrees to cleanup after invasion;

and they are starting to fail when they are opening to the modern world not just because of transitioning to the bad habits but also due to constant exposure to a much wider plethora of patogens, mostly viruses perhaps novadays

also another factor in addition to the "patogen base" is frequency that perhaps became an important factor when thymus is degraded and the only way to address something is clonal expansion which probably has its limits (just statistically, the rate of decease onset could simply defeat the "slow start" of the immune cells multiplication), so being in a limited environment could be beneficial on the individual level (to some degree, it is not just straight), while group exposed to the wider range will defeat competitors like in "guns, Germs and Steel" described

 

edited: I forgot about life-long CMV "tax" on the immune system as a studied example, no idea however if somebody ever studied "longevity enclaves" for (especially early years) CMV exposure

https://books.google.com.ua/books?id=BzcqBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA64&lpg=PA64&dq="The+prevention+of+life-long+stimulation+of+the+immune+system+by+chronic+bacterial+and+viral+infections,+especially+CMV,+seems+to+be+the+most+promising+strategy."&source=bl&ots=9YSlDZjOgM&sig=ACfU3U32g4SCFs4LkFUNESZ3qYeyVzJ-3g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjck6Lwnpn6AhUTIMUKHfecBNYQ6AF6BAgDEAM

 

The prevention of life-long stimulation of the immune system by chronic bacterial and viral infections, especially CMV, seems to be the most promising strategy.

Edited September 16, 2022 by IgorF
edited to add

[BrianA]

Good points Igor, I've also been wondering similar thoughts lately. It would seem part of replicating the full blue zone experience would be to arrange lifestyle to reduce infections. Also I'd say reduce air pollution level, as many of these zones are on islands or less industrialized locations with low air pollution.

[BrianA]

"Our study suggests that when norovirus infects those with a weakened ability to produce apoptosis inhibitor five, it tips the balance toward a full-blown autoimmune disease,"

 

Norovirus link to Crohn's disease may point to new therapies

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/10/221005111916.htm

[Ron Put]

On 9/16/2022 at 10:29 AM, IgorF said:

The prevention of life-long stimulation of the immune system by chronic bacterial and viral infections, especially CMV, seems to be the most promising strategy.

We don't know that and it seems unlikely from an evolutionary standpoint. Some pathogens cause long-term issues in some humans, such as cancers, cardio-vascular damage, etc.. Virtually all of the "long-Covid" scaremongering studies are mirrored by older flu common cold studies, yet most of those hiding under their beds because of Covid shrug off the flu and don't get their flu shot. BTW, the flu kill far more kids than Covid, yet somehow we don't mandate flu shots, but mandate Covid shots even though we have no knowledge of its long term effects on kids. Fear drives mass stupidity, sometimes with disastrous consequences.

Funny enough, I just listened to this somewhat rambling video, but it makes the point well enough:
 

 

[BrianA]

You know we look back at history, at the times before we had clean water to drink (some people in the world are still at this stage), and shake our heads at the "dark ages" and all the diseases they caught from that.

 

Guess what, we're still living in the dark ages in a lot of other ways. Clean, non-infecting air is one of the ways, particularly in public and work spaces. We have ways to fix the problem, but most folks are still deniers and/or put money over health in order to maximize profits. Folks 50 years from now will look back at this time and shake their heads at how backwards we were.

 

Lack of focus on aging research is another example. Things have gotten better in the past decade, but it's still at a laughably poorly funded level from both public and private sector sources.

[Ron Put]

7 hours ago, BrianA said:

 

Guess what, we're still living in the dark ages in a lot of other ways. Clean, non-infecting air is one of the ways, particularly in public and work spaces. We have ways to fix the problem, but most folks are still deniers and/or put money over health in order to maximize profits.

Of course, this kind of thinking makes many all warm and fuzzy, until one reflects that the industrial revolution and maximizing profits were instrumental in providing the technology and the funds to have cleaner water, scientific, technological and health advances, enabled the population explosion (responsible for most of the environmental impact), and the lifting of billions out of poverty. And, maximising of profits has driven a rapid, unseen hereto increase in the average human lifespan.

And yes, the primary focus on aging research is also for profits.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Ron Put

[Saul]

Ron, I agree completely.  If we all followed the (unfortunately many) that follow that reasoning, we'd probably end up as the "US Province of Greater China".

(Of course, we all know the magnanimity of the dear Communist Party of China.; not6hing to worry about.)

The most idiotic of the many environmental ideals is the one currently followed by our current brilliant President:  Stop producing oil and gas in the US; instead, encourage countries such as Saudi Arabia to produce more oil to make up for the resulting shortfall.

I guess the current white House thinks that Saudi Arabian oil produces less CO2 than American oil?

  --  Saul

[IgorF]

Maybe another way to build a pro-aging argument would be like this (focusing only on the virures to cut over additional complexity):

1. viruses until they met us are neither pro- nor neutral or contra- from our aging perspective

2. when an emerging virus with properties that makes us its new host is faced by us then there could be almost 100% possibility that its properties will be disrupting for something in our cells/intracellular areas - the biochemical machinery is enourmously complex and for the host-virus pair that was not coevolved many generations it is hard to expect something good for the host

3. if the pair will be stabilized (from the now undividable evolutionally preasure unit perspective) then under a long run there could be raised some things that looks like miracles (a few fascinating cases are described in the Virusphere by Frank Ryan)

4. so, having all the 3 points above we can conclude that there is a possibility that something that already happened with us many times had a contra-aging effect in the past, it could be either a coevolution or a "genetic deposit" that was integrated into our genome that originally came from the outside, in other words - maybe something that made us living longer somehow was a part of a virus invasion to our predecessors bodies.

 

But narrowing down the question from the long-term, species-level point of view to a "here and now assessing human being" I personally still think we do have limits in the immunologic areas ("wear and tear" = errors accumulation due to extreme complexity of the machinery that creates energy and molecules - every such a process has its error rate due to the nature of the energy-matter and physics) and the less we use the whole complex of the intruder countermeasures - the less we are taxing the limited resource.

In the best case we will not lose some resource, if the faced challenge will generate "wear and tear" when our bodies are still managing the cleanup faster that it accumulates (and there will not happen a type that could not be cleaned and that will not passively stay with us).

Br,

Igor

 

 

[BrianA]

14 hours ago, Ron Put said:

Of course, this kind of thinking makes many all warm and fuzzy, until one reflects that the industrial revolution and maximizing profits were instrumental in providing the technology and the funds to have cleaner water, scientific, technological and health advances, enabled the population explosion (responsible for most of the environmental impact), and the lifting of billions out of poverty. And, maximising of profits has driven a rapid, unseen hereto increase in the average human lifespan.

And yes, the primary focus on aging research is also for profits.

 

This is an interesting angle to think about the issues from, but I don't believe pure economics is what is holding back society on these two issues. I think both suffer to a significant extent from something like the Overton Window, which determines what is "ok" to discuss publicly. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window)

 

Because in both cases if society was "ok" with making a push to solve the issue, then economists would IMO plainly point out via basic economic analysis that in both cases the "cure" for the issues results in overall net-improved economics and profits rather than net-costs. Example: if you solve indoor air infecting people, less people get sick all the time, and more work gets done/higher productivity for businesses. There also would be more workers available instead of getting disabled, so businesses could pay less for workers, which means more profits and lower inflation. Example 2: if you significantly extend lifespan, people can work longer before retiring, or needing significant healthcare, greatly reducing the healthcare costs load on businesses and governments.

 

The fact is that most of society just simply hasn't moved their Overton Window status to "Acceptable" or "Sensible" (let's not even talk about "Popular" or "Policy"), instead for the majority of society, research into greatly extending lifespan or actually admitting that indoor air needs to be fixed remains at the "Radical" or even "Unthinkable" stage. And this is what I'm referencing in part with my dark-ages hypothesis. Interestingly it affects virtually everyone, no matter their politics. You can find the most "woke" individuals ranting on twitter that a billionaire might be so bold as to fund anti-aging research, and I've yet to hear of even the most woke companies actually spending any money on improving their office ventilation systems as they try to force more employees back to in-person work. The government has done zip to improve indoor air at its facilities. It's nonsensical denialism everywhere, and although society has very gradually and slowly improved a bit on moving the Window to make these issues Acceptable to talk about without marking yourself as a "wacko", we've still got a long ways to go.

[BrianA]

Olfactory viral inflammation associated with accelerated onset of Alzheimer's disease

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/12/221214113910.htm