Energy levels and metabolism

[pwonline]

Greetings, I'm new so I'd like to first show my diet:

cronometer isn't picking up the micronutrients from the fresh greens so I'm well beyond the RDA for all since the amount I'm consuming in a day is high and they are a power house for nutrients.

I also do intermittent fasting, my first meal is at 10am (35 minute eating) then at 3pm (35 minute eating). I drink water for the remaining 19.5 hours a day. My plan/goal is to have the exact same meals for the rest of my life and if my body starts rejecting something I'll just change the legumes or the grains. I start my eating fibre first in my meal then olive oil then my main meal of grain+lugume and finish off with more fibre. This is to help glucose spiking in blood and lower insulin levels.

Now my question is this, I've been doing this on and off and other similar diets for almost the whole of 2022. my weight is 46kg and I'm 168cm tall, cronometer says I have a BMI of 16.4

I'm starting to have more strength in the gym but I can't move fast, I'm fatigued and feel like being stationary, I have to will my body to move more than I used to. I would say I've done my strict diet for a few weeks so I'm guessing after time I would adapt further and it will get easier? I'm hoping to put on muscle and have noticed that indeed my body seems to be getting more toned. My veins have started showing, like I'm extremely vascular! I used to weigh 84kg and was a gym fanatic so build good big veins from before.

I wear 7 layers on my upper body to feel warm enough, otherwise I'm cold. I know my metabolism has slowed down, which is what I want and It troubled me knowing i'm more lethargic and want to be stationary but I realised something that isn't talked about and infact disputed against in the CR community that I've seen in youtube.

Have a look at the animal kingdom and see all the species that live long lives, they all have slow metabolism but they also move really slowly! like giant turtles or sloths etc.

I notice if I walk slower I feel more "normal", I feel similar to the energy levels when I walked faster without being on a cron diet. No one talks about this that slow metabolism means that you live life much more slowly, has anyone else experienced this? or is this just while I'm in adaptive phase or is it my very low calories and low bmi? cronometer says I'm around 25% less calories than I need a day, I'm 38 and hope to reach 100 years of age with CRON + healthy lifestyle. Someone please share their views on my slow metabolism equals slow and longer life theory? Also I'm super happy to have finally created an account and joining this community. I'm proud to be a CRONnie.

 

[Dean Pomerleau]

9 hours ago, pwonline said:

No one talks about this that slow metabolism means that you live life much more slowly, has anyone else experienced this? or is this just while I'm in adaptive phase or is it my very low calories and low bmi? cronometer says I'm around 25% less calories than I need a day, I'm 38 and hope to reach 100 years of age with CRON + healthy lifestyle. Someone please share their views on my slow metabolism equals slow and longer life theory?

Welcome to the CR Forums pwonline!

It is great that you are tracking your nutrition and your energy expenditure using Cronometer. That is really helpful. And your diet (while spartan) looks like it covers your micronutrient requirements quite adequately. Congratulations on that!

But...

Eating only 1600kcal per day and 600kcal fewer than you are burning leaves no doubt as to why you are feeling lethargic. I went through a similar period many years ago when I was started practicing a CR lifestyle with an excess of enthusiasm. And I wasn't nearly as extreme as you appear to be. More (or in this case less) is not always better.

You mention you used to be over 80lbs heavier (sorry, I think in lbs) and you now have a BMI of 16.4. I can unequivocally say you should not be running a 600kcal/day deficit at a BMI of 16.4. You are at serious risk of catabolizing important tissue (like vital organs - heart, liver, etc.) and triggering serious health consequences by running that kind of deficit at that BMI. 

There are a (very) few CR folks who have successfully taken CR to that low a BMI. I'm not one of them. But those people who have reached that point successfully (e.g. Michael Rae, Khurram) have done so very gradually, and by the time they are in that vicinity they are carefully modulating their calories and physical activity (e.g. targeting deficits or surpluses of ~25kcal/day) to maintain their weight.

9 hours ago, pwonline said:

I would say I've done my strict diet for a few weeks so I'm guessing after time I would adapt further and it will get easier? I'm hoping to put on muscle and have noticed that indeed my body seems to be getting more toned. My veins have started showing, like I'm extremely vascular! I used to weigh 84kg and was a gym fanatic so build good big veins from before.

Unequivocally no. It will not get easier and you won't put on muscle mass eating 1600kcal per day while burning 2200kcal at a BMI of 16.4. You will continue to have low energy and waste away.

You say you've been practicing CR and other diets for "most of 2022" (~5 months). How much weight have you lost in that time? If it is anything more than about 20lbs, you aren't doing CR - you are crash dieting. Taking it as far as you have (to a BMI of 16.4 over a relatively short period of time) is more likely to be detrimental rather than beneficial for your health, well-being and longevity. Adult rodents subjected to rapid onset CR so as to result in dramatic weight loss have their lives cut short, not extended. 

If you want to do CR right, you should immediately increase you calorie intake to at least 2200kcal/day and you stop losing weight and (hopefully) restore your vitality. You have already put yourself in the very deep end of the pool. Stabilizing your weight by dramatically increasing your calorie intake is the only prudent thing to do at this point.

Sorry to be blunt, but if you have accurately characterized your trajectory and current situation, you are at serious risk of self harm and need to reverse course before irreversible damage is done.

--Dean

[pwonline]

13 hours ago, Dean Pomerleau said:

Welcome to the CR Forums pwonline!

It is great that you are tracking your nutrition and your energy expenditure using Cronometer. That is really helpful. And your diet (while spartan) looks like it covers your micronutrient requirements quite adequately. Congratulations on that!

But...

Eating only 1600kcal per day and 600kcal fewer than you are burning leaves no doubt as to why you are feeling lethargic. I went through a similar period many years ago when I was started practicing a CR lifestyle with an excess of enthusiasm. And I wasn't nearly as extreme as you appear to be. More (or in this case less) is not always better.

You mention you used to be over 80lbs heavier (sorry, I think in lbs) and you now have a BMI of 16.4. I can unequivocally say you should not be running a 600kcal/day deficit at a BMI of 16.4. You are at serious risk of catabolizing important tissue (like vital organs - heart, liver, etc.) and triggering serious health consequences by running that kind of deficit at that BMI. 

There are a (very) few CR folks who have successfully taken CR to that low a BMI. I'm not one of them. But those people who have reached that point successfully (e.g. Michael Rae, Khurram) have done so very gradually, and by the time they are in that vicinity they are carefully modulating their calories and physical activity (e.g. targeting deficits or surpluses of ~25kcal/day) to maintain their weight.

Unequivocally no. It will not get easier and you won't put on muscle mass eating 1600kcal per day while burning 2200kcal at a BMI of 16.4. You will continue to have low energy and waste away.

You say you've been practicing CR and other diets for "most of 2022" (~5 months). How much weight have you lost in that time? If it is anything more than about 20lbs, you aren't doing CR - you are crash dieting. Taking it as far as you have (to a BMI of 16.4 over a relatively short period of time) is more likely to be detrimental rather than beneficial for your health, well-being and longevity. Adult rodents subjected to rapid onset CR so as to result in dramatic weight loss have their lives cut short, not extended. 

If you want to do CR right, you should immediately increase you calorie intake to at least 2200kcal/day and you stop losing weight and (hopefully) restore your vitality. You have already put yourself in the very deep end of the pool. Stabilizing your weight by dramatically increasing your calorie intake is the only prudent thing to do at this point.

Sorry to be blunt, but if you have accurately characterized your trajectory and current situation, you are at serious risk of self harm and need to reverse course before irreversible damage is done.

--Dean

Thankyou for taking the time and effort to help me out. I've read your blog and I'm thoroughly impressed.

I'd like to add more calories in terms of EVOO, my fat intake as a percentage of my total calories is 26% (Protein 24%, Carbs 50%), currently I'm taking 2 tsp EVOO (79.56 calories) and will up that to 2 tbsp (238.68), adding another 159 calories and my total will be

1769

You are correct I'm wasting away, I increased my physical activities this week and have (from your help) realised my body is more fatigued because it doesn't have sufficient energy. My weekly weigh in shows my current weight has dropped and I'm not 45.1 kg with a BMI of 16

I don't feel hungry, just lethargic. Dean for now is it okay I leave my calories at 1769 (by adding more EVOO)? I have no need of extra muscle and my strength in gym has actually increased slightly. My physical output won't always be as high as 2200. I also thought the point of CR was to get to that 20 to 30% reduction.

I feel good today because my body's recovered from my last gym exercise though. If I lose more weight by the end of next weeks weigh in. I'll add another tbsp of EVOO and check again? thanks again for your expertise and guidance 🙂

Edited June 4, 2022 by pwonline
clarification

[Dean Pomerleau]

4 hours ago, pwonline said:

Dean for now is it okay I leave my calories at 1769 (by adding more EVOO)? 

No. You are in dangerous territory and getting in deeper fast. You still haven't said how quickly you have lost weight, but dropping to a BMI of 16 is risky no matter how slowly you got there.

You should eat a surplus of at least 200kcal per day above your expenditure to gain weight over the next month or two to bring your BMI up to at least 18.

Here is a personal anecdote. At one point after about 5 years of CR when my BMI was steady around 17 I had a heart-to-heart talk with Luigi Fontana while visiting WUSTL for his study of CRONies. He said he thought I and other CRONies in the study were likely going to far and he worried about our health. I took his perspective to heart and decided to gain back some weight.

My strategy was to start eating three extra bananas per day on top of my regular, weight-stable diet. I'd weigh myself every morning and if I hadn't gained at least a tenth of a pound I'd add another 1/2 banana that day. If I was up more than 0.4 lbs, I'd subtract 1/2 a banana that day. It wasn't easy psychologically to gain weight, but by sticking to this strategy was able to steadily gain healthy weight and brought my BMI up to what I consider a reasonable 18.5. I suspect 20-21 may be just as healthy and longevity promoting, but I'm comfortable at my current weight and have plenty of energy at a steady state BMI of ~18.5, so that is where I've been hanging out for years now. 

You should employ a similar strategy to get to at least a BMI of 18. Choose whatever you want to eat extra of. Bananas worked for me since they are cheap, tasty, relatively healthy, easy to find and not very perishable. I'm not really into adding pure fat, even EVOO. But if it works for you feel free to modulate your intake of EVOO to gain weight. But weigh yourself daily and keep adding more of whatever you've chosen until your weight starts going up and keeps climbing steadily. 

Then hang out around 18 for at least a few months to stabilize your weight, assess your steady state calorie requirements and allow your body the time it needs to adjust to a CR lifestyle. Hopefully you'll get your energy back too.

Then you can decide if it is worth it to risk going lower. A few CR folks think so. But I don't consider the scant evidence for additional benefits of severe CR in people (or animals) be worth the health risks (frailty, bone loss, glucose metabolism issues, to name a few) or the reduction in vitality that inevitably accompanies cutting calories so close to the bone. 

But EVERYONE agrees that doing what you've been doing is dangerous and counterproductive if your goal is health and longevity. 

Good luck and keep us posted. 

--Dean 

 

[pwonline]

2 hours ago, Dean Pomerleau said:

No. You are in dangerous territory and getting in deeper fast. You still haven't said how quickly you have lost weight, but dropping to a BMI of 16 is risky no matter how slowly you got there.

You should eat a surplus of at least 200kcal per day above your expenditure to gain weight over the next month or two to bring your BMI up to at least 18.

Here is a personal anecdote. At one point after about 5 years of CR when my BMI was steady around 17 I had a heart-to-heart talk with Luigi Fontana while visiting WUSTL for his study of CRONies. He said he thought I and other CRONies in the study were likely going to far and he worried about our health. I took his perspective to heart and decided to gain back some weight.

My strategy was to start eating three extra bananas per day on top of my regular, weight-stable diet. I'd weigh myself every morning and if I hadn't gained at least a tenth of a pound I'd add another 1/2 banana that day. If I was up more than 0.4 lbs, I'd subtract 1/2 a banana that day. It wasn't easy psychologically to gain weight, but by sticking to this strategy was able to steadily gain healthy weight and brought my BMI up to what I consider a reasonable 18.5. I suspect 20-21 may be just as healthy and longevity promoting, but I'm comfortable at my current weight and have plenty of energy at a steady state BMI of ~18.5, so that is where I've been hanging out for years now. 

You should employ a similar strategy to get to at least a BMI of 18. Choose whatever you want to eat extra of. Bananas worked for me since they are cheap, tasty, relatively healthy, easy to find and not very perishable. I'm not really into adding pure fat, even EVOO. But if it works for you feel free to modulate your intake of EVOO to gain weight. But weigh yourself daily and keep adding more of whatever you've chosen until your weight starts going up and keeps climbing steadily. 

Then hang out around 18 for at least a few months to stabilize your weight, assess your steady state calorie requirements and allow your body the time it needs to adjust to a CR lifestyle. Hopefully you'll get your energy back too.

Then you can decide if it is worth it to risk going lower. A few CR folks think so. But I don't consider the scant evidence for additional benefits of severe CR in people (or animals) be worth the health risks (frailty, bone loss, glucose metabolism issues, to name a few) or the reduction in vitality that inevitably accompanies cutting calories so close to the bone. 

But EVERYONE agrees that doing what you've been doing is dangerous and counterproductive if your goal is health and longevity. 

Good luck and keep us posted. 

--Dean 

 

I have always been healthy and never got sick. I take things to the extreme. I started a job doing night shifts, my sleep suffered tremendously and I was doing 6 sometimes 7 days a week. All I cared about was saving. In 2.5 years of doing this I had 2 weeks off from work, once I got food poisoning and the second time I got shingles. The doctor said you shouldn't be getting shingles at my age, something really messed my immune system and it was two fold. Lack of sleep and I was gauging on free sugary food from work.

This is when it began and I got scared, I once trusted my body and now I can't so I did one meal a day. My meal I tried to limit to 800 to 1000 calories.

I lasted 10 weeks and I believe I lost ALOT of weight, probably to the weight I have now or less, though my belly didn't completely  shrink and I was stubborn.

I only stopped because I found a lump under my chin and was CONVINCED I had developed cancer, it was a swollen lymph node, most likely from the stress and increased cortisol levels over 10 weeks. I quit my job and started eating 3 meals a day again. I gained some weight back but I believe once you go so extreme on a diet then you will keep having thoughts about doing it again but slightly less extreme.

I remember after doing this that I weighed myself and the doctor said I weighed 54 kg, that was a full year before she weighed me again, in that year I went back to my old ways and even more extreme! I tried to go keto AND omad, I did this for 3 months and had ZERO drive or energy. Going up stairs was strenuous, any incline climbing no matter how shallow or deep made me dread and fatigued. I also ate the exact same bland cold/frozen food over the 3 months until I got food poisoning . My body would make me puke if I tried to eat those foods so I stopped and went back to 3 meals for maybe a month and gained some weight. but then I heard about CRON and tried to do OMAD with CRON which was hard, eating my only meal at 5pm. So I decided I'll compromise and now I do 20 4 intermittent fasting with 2 meals at 11pm and 3pm. Both meals are the same except I replace 2 eggs in one meal with a canned sardines in another, everything else the exact same. I also found you eat the exact same meal 6/7 times a week? we have allot in common and that's why I actually partially took your advice to increase my calories yesterday but it wasn't easy to accept.

So basically in 1 year I lost around 12kg (27 lbs) but most of that was near the end. I'm starting a CS degree in 3 months and can't be this weak all the time and since I admire and respect you so much I'm going to do as you say. I will add 20g of flaxseed plus increase my grain and legume by 20g each. the rest of the calories I'm going to increase with EVOO, until I start seeing weight increase and keep doing this until I get a BMI of 18.5, but I don't want to do it quickly. I still want to stick to 2 meals a day. My calories after those addition currently will take me to 2086, so around 2100 since I have slightly more. If I don't gain weight at that intake I'll slowly add EVOO. I will keep a diary of my weight daily and post once a week at the weight I have.

You probably saved my life. thankyou

[Dean Pomerleau]

That is quite a roller-coaster you've been on. It appears that you have a sound plan to get your yoyoing under control. Now you've just got to stick to it! 

Best of luck, and please do let us know how you are progressing. 

--Dean 

[Sthira]

Dean's blog? Do you have a link for that? I'd like to read more of your stuff Dean, you're great.

To PW, I went through similar experiences of being super excited about eating fewer and fewer calories than my body desired. Did that during a period of years until I found myself weighing a lot less than I was in my peak (early 20s).

BMI wasn't very useful -- CR is eating less, but eating well -- and eating like 10-20% fewer calories to maintain a body that's leaner than peak, like in early 20s, whenever. If you know your BMI from when you were like 21, then eat 15% less to drop that BMI slightly.

It became natural and even comfortable for me to overdo this practice (if some is good, more is better, yadda); and some of those climbing-stairs-tiredness and dizziness-moments seemed to pass, the body adapts, or weird effects might have been psychological, or too low blood pressure or too low sugar, or I'm just tired and cranky. Myriad. 

My body adapts, but I lost interest in this pursuit after analysis of those two primate CR studies that seemed to point -- eh – not thrillingly huge longevity benefits if you're already down with the healthy.

It makes sense to me that our ancestors would go through feast and famine cycles. So periodic fasting, long fasts and short fasts, TBD, or lowering calories longer term, combined with meeting RDA "feels" natural. Like my body feels clean, light, strong doing this, but it has side effects, too.

It's a body (for me) that's slower to heal from little and big injuries, it's a colder body, it has blood pressure, a lower heart rate, lower BG and all the other mysteries. 

If I tighten a screw too much it breaks, or strips the thread, and if I do too much CRON, well, that simplistic analogy. Where that line is (for me) remains mysterious and dynamic. There's no guidebook for consistent care of this individual N=1 body as it moves through space time.

[Dean Pomerleau]

Sthira - great to hear from you! We've really missed your input around here for the last couple years. I hope you are doing well!

56 minutes ago, Sthira said:

Dean's blog? Do you have a link for that? I'd like to read more of your stuff Dean, you're great.

I'm curious as well, since as far as I recall I've never had a blog...

--Dean

 

[pwonline]

36 minutes ago, Sthira said:

Dean's blog? Do you have a link for that? I'd like to read more of your stuff Dean, you're great.

To PW, I went through similar experiences of being super excited about eating fewer and fewer calories than my body desired. Did that during a period of years until I found myself weighing a lot less than I was in my peak (early 20s).

BMI wasn't very useful -- CR is eating less, but eating well -- and eating like 10-20% fewer calories to maintain a body that's leaner than peak, like in early 20s, whenever. If you know your BMI from when you were like 21, then eat 15% less to drop that BMI slightly.

It became natural and even comfortable for me to overdo this practice (if some is good, more is better, yadda); and some of those climbing-stairs-tiredness and dizziness-moments seemed to pass, the body adapts, or weird effects might have been psychological, or too low blood pressure or too low sugar, or I'm just tired and cranky. Myriad. 

My body adapts, but I lost interest in this pursuit after analysis of those two primate CR studies that seemed to point -- eh – not thrillingly huge longevity benefits if you're already down with the healthy.

It makes sense to me that our ancestors would go through feast and famine cycles. So periodic fasting, long fasts and short fasts, TBD, or lowering calories longer term, combined with meeting RDA "feels" natural. Like my body feels clean, light, strong doing this, but it has side effects, too.

It's a body (for me) that's slower to heal from little and big injuries, it's a colder body, it has blood pressure, a lower heart rate, lower BG and all the other mysteries. 

If I tighten a screw too much it breaks, or strips the thread, and if I do too much CRON, well, that simplistic analogy. Where that line is (for me) remains mysterious and dynamic. There's no guidebook for consistent care of this individual N=1 body as it moves through space time.

You need to work on your google fu, since Dean interested me, I googled him

second link

https://deanpomerleau.tripod.com/

Dean is super duper talented, he's smart, he has success in academia as a researcher and in business as an entrepreneur. He also has probably the most morals and guidelines that I have seen. Dean you are legit someone I aspire to follow in the footsteps.

Also thanks to Dean I'm doing a complete U turn on CR. This was a journey that took me 6 months, In those 6 months I went through strict keto, 3mad, 2mad, omad. Had my omad at 7am, then changed to 11am then changed to 5pm.

I had a faze I only ate chilled food. I listened to all sorts of advocates of particular diets, some scientist saying it's carbs others saying it's all calories others saying it's veganism and protein is bad. All highly esteemed professionals, yet most of them look like they could lose some weight.

So now I've completed my journey and have come out on the other end (BIG THANKS TO DEAN) with this diet. I eat 2 meals a day and no snacking. 11am and 3pm. My diet consists of low GI whole grains, legumes, vegetables, eggs, fish, seeds, nuts, olive oil.

I do weight training before I open my fast at 11am so I boost HGH and lower insulin. I also go for 30 minute walk after my second meal to help with digestion and lower glucose quickly. I eat the exact same meal everyday so it's easy to adjust calories which I have full control of. I don't snack, don't eat processed foods or junk. have a strict sleeping pattern of 9pm to 5:30am (8.5 hours sleep) and wear amber glasses two hours before sleep so I have good production of melatonin. I drink 4 litres of water a day.

As you can see, just this diet and lifestyle would allow me to have a long(ish) life. CR won't give me that much extra. CR would probably be good for someone who isn't as disciplined or well educated as me (in terms of nutrition and healthy habits).

CR gives you a weak body, it's constantly cold. Yes you adapt but that's adapting to exist not adapting to thrive and LIVE! 

CR would be superseded by modern medicine by the time I reach 90 anyway, what good is living an extra 10 years if you have no vitality or drive because your body is in constant reserve mode! 

I also realised something, our bodys ability to adapt is completely shut off when you are on CR, let me explain. I'm going gym but gym works on the principle that your body will adapt to the extra demands it's placed under so the muscles are supposed to increase in strength and size BUT on CR they can't! you don't give it the the fuel to do it's job! so I'm wasting my time and I will always feel pain and weak since my body won't adapt! I won't let it!

I'm happy to think the end of my life will be 90 and any extra is a bonus. My focus now is to find maintenance calorie level and add 200 extra. I'll continue weight training and regain my muscle over the years.  I rather live a vigorous and adventurous life then a sedentary  life. Lastly our perceptions of ourselves are viewed from the eyes of others. this is a fact. When you look good you are treated differently and that can heighten your mood/emotions/experiences. With how the world is gauging on food and sugar they will be lucky to hit 80. I'm confident most if not all of my peers will pass before mid 80's. What good is living in a world where you'll be alone. Sorry Dean or anyone that I have offended. This is my final say on diet and nutrition. Dean has set me free.

I'm not shackled to restrict my calories and constantly worry about gaining weight or dying. I'm excited to think I can grow. A strong body changes you, it strengthens your emotional, spiritual side also! they all intertwined!

This was an invaluable experience and I have gained tremendous wisdom that I wouldn't have without going through it and trust me it wasn't easy. Again I really don't mean to offend anyone but I want to have a final say before I leave and embark on my next chapter since this has left a big mark on my life. Thanks Dean, you don't understand how much I value you taking that time to send me that message and allow me to find a new path to follow, one (hopefully) that has a better or at least happy outcome. Take Care!

[Dean Pomerleau]

16 minutes ago, pwonline said:

You need to work on your google fu, since Dean interested me, I googled him

second link

https://deanpomerleau.tripod.com/

Wow - that's quite a blast from the past. That wasn't a blog but my personal website from circa 2006, back in the MySpace era when personal websites were a thing even for non-famous people. I didn't know it was still on-line. Pretty amusing.

26 minutes ago, pwonline said:

My focus now is to find maintenance calorie level and add 200 extra. I'll continue weight training and regain my muscle over the years.  I rather live a vigorous and adventurous life then a sedentary  life.

That all sounds great. My final advice would be to avoid going overboard on your next adventure - whatever it is!

Good luck.

--Dean 

[Sthira]

8 hours ago, Dean Pomerleau said:

Sthira - great to hear from you! We've really missed your input around here for the last couple years. I hope you are doing well!

I'm curious as well, since as far as I recall I've never had a blog...

--Dean

 

Thanks, Dean! You're kind! I hope you're well, too, and wonder how your paw paw tree is doing?

I thought you might have a new blog! So I was ready to dive into it! But nope. Hmm yeah nope. I don't blame you for not writing much. There's already so much chatter! And which yakkedy to trust?

I'm doing well. Like so many people around, life cards got shuffled around during the pandemic, but hanging in there. I haven't kept up with longevity science. At all. I got discouraged by the entire field, and it doesn't seem like it has made much forward progress in the past few years? Am I mistaken? I'm always mistaken!

Longo says to fast.

 

Edited June 6, 2022 by Sthira

[Sthira]

8 hours ago, pwonline said:

So now I've completed my journey and have come out on the other end (BIG THANKS TO DEAN) with this diet. I eat 2 meals a day and no snacking. 11am and 3pm. My diet consists of low GI whole grains, legumes, vegetables, eggs, fish, seeds, nuts, olive oil.

Wow. Well, congrats on completion. Must be awesome! Personally I wouldn't do fish and eggs, but what happened to fruit? No fruit? No berries? No mangos, avocados, citrus -- I think I'd die without pears. Especially in summer. Strawberries get a no? 

[pwonline]

4 hours ago, Sthira said:

Wow. Well, congrats on completion. Must be awesome! Personally I wouldn't do fish and eggs, but what happened to fruit? No fruit? No berries? No mangos, avocados, citrus -- I think I'd die without pears. Especially in summer. Strawberries get a no? 

300g of collard greens and 300 grams of broccoli, all raw

so as you know there are so many view points in nutrition and one of them I follow is eliminate fructose as much as you can.

Just like to add our body adapts to the food, since I have no fruit I can literally taste the sugars in the raw broccoli I eat! I also realised if you eat fruit or anything that excites your taste bud, you get more cravings for food. I literally eat the same meal twice daily but change the 2 eggs to sardines. I hope my body doesn't reject this and I can do this for the rest of my life. I want to consider food as fuel and nothing more. I understand I have to enjoy my meal otherwise I can't maintain this forever and lucky all I can tell you is when you fast daily for 19 hours, the joy I get from eating my meals is better than anything I've eaten in restaurants.

 

Also sthira, what are your credentials? you speak of "Longo " as though he's a peer and sthira does the fact that todays fruit is genetically engineered to be laced with sugar not bother you? 

taking my diet as a whole with my sleep, water intake, 19 hours daily fast, exercise, 70grams fibre daily, I see no reason to eliminate eggs and fish, even if there is evidence that it's detrimental to lifespan by MTor or other mechanisms. I've set my life to end at 90, anything else is a bonus and statistically if I can maintain my habits I have a good shot at reaching 90. BUT science and technology will surely get to a level that will let us live slightly longer.

I'd like to think I won't ever think about food or nutrition again. Food is just a tool to live your life, when we get obsessed with food as a tool to extend life we forget about LIVING life. I don't want to focus on the tool anymore, I found a tool (diet + nutrition) that works, now I need to use that tool and create something and not try to make the perfect tool and forget to create.

Peace

[Dean Pomerleau]

12 hours ago, Sthira said:

I hope you're well, too, and wonder how your paw paw tree is doing?

I'm doing very well, thanks! My pawpaw tree is doing great. Last year I picked 75 lbs of fruit from it. Looking at the number of baby fruit on it now, I expect an even bigger harvest this year. I have two more pawpaw trees about 6 ft tall that I hope will start bearing fruit next year. In addition to my usual vegetable garden, this year I planted a hardy kiwi vine and two different varieties of persimmon trees (Prok and Iche). My neighbor grows both the hardy kiwi and the Prok persimmon and they are delicious!

Oh yeah, I also planted six different varieties of fig trees in containers. 

--Dean 

[Sthira]

5 hours ago, Dean Pomerleau said:

75 lbs of fruit

75 pounds of pawpaws sounds pretty exciting, Dean! 

Let's see, would that be diced pawpaw in a bowl, sliced pawpaw in a cup, pawpaw in the salad, pawpaw spread as jam on toast, pawpaw pudding (I think I like the word pawpaw) pawpaw bread, cake, smoothies, brownies, I see someone is making pawpaw cheesecake! 

I'm so impressed by folks who grow their own food. It's work, and you need land and soil, need protection from critters, wire cages, and weeding time. But doesn't it seem like a miracle that plants grow? Seeds sprout and fruit quietly forms on trees. It doesn't require much from us, some love and attention -- it blossoms, attracts pollinators, birds and spreads happiness and clean air. Plants are inspiring!

I love kiwi, persimmons, figs. Are you able to provide most of your own food, or do you still need the market for more?

Are you CRing these days? 

[Dean Pomerleau]

I too find it very rewarding to grow some of my own food.

Pawpaws really are a flexible fruit, although I mostly just eat the flesh diced up. You might wonder what I do with 75 lbs of it though. First of all, that is total weight, including skin and seeds. Actual flesh is probably closer to 60 lbs. I gave about a quarter of it away to friends. I've introduced a lot of people to pawpaws who have never heard of them before, despite pawpaws being native to this part of the country (and the state fruit of nearby Ohio!). I have neighbors from India who say they remind of them of fruit they grew up with.

Last year I traded another quarter of my pawpaws for persimmons and hardy kiwi from that other neighbor I mentioned. Hardy kiwis are smaller than regular fuzzy kiwis you get in the store and much sweeter! I can't wait until my vine starts bearing fruit. Unfortunately it will be a couple more years for both my persimmons and hardy kiwi to mature to the fruit-bearing stage, so I'm planning to trade with the neighbor again this year.

Another 10% I eat fresh in the fall myself (my wife doesn't like the taste). The other 40% I freeze and vacuum seal. I eat a little of it each day mixed in with other fruit and berries in my 10-grain cereal. It looks like I'll have enough to last me until fall, just in time for the new crop to ripen!

But to answer your question - no, I don't grow all my food, not by a long shot. I belong to a CSA where I get a lot of my other produce during the summer and fall months. I just picked up my first box of the season today (Swiss chard, green leaf lettuce, spinach, snap peas, a quart of fresh strawberries and four peaches (from Georgia - the only item not locally grown). Nice to support local farmers and the produce is much fresher than store-bought fruits and veggies here in PA. But I still get a lot of my produce and other staples from Aldi, even during the summer.

Things I'm growing in my garden this year include:

• Kale
• Mustard Greens
• Swiss Chard
• Red Leaf Sorrel
• Green Leaf Lettuce
• Red leaf Lettuce
• Arugula
• Spearmint
• Lemon Balm
• Lemon Thyme
• Sage
• Basil
• Cherry Tomatoes
• Purple potatoes

The purple potatoes are new this year and really an accident. I got a bunch of purple potatoes at the end of the CSA season last fall and didn't eat them all before they started growing eyes in December. I didn't have the heart to compost them so I let them continue sprouting all winter. Their shoots were over 2 feet long by late April! I decided to bury the potatoes, shoots and all, in the ground next to my compost heap to see if they would grow. Sure enough, they have sent up tons of green leaves and appear to be doing well. I can't wait to see if how many potatoes I get at the end of the season.

It really is a miracle how vigorously things grow with just a little help. I've got two giant sunflowers coming up in my front yards. It is crazy they've come from the tiny seeds I rescued from my bird feeder on a whim to see if they would grow. Unfortunately the bunnies ate a couple more "volunteer" sunflowers that had sprouted in the backyard under the birdfeeder. I'm not mad though. They've got to eat too and so far the rabbits haven't bothered my main raised beds, probably because I have hoops over them with netting to keep out the rabbits and deer. Today I had a wild turkey stroll up to the ground under the bird feeder (visible above the third deer from the left in the photo below), not 20 feet from where I'm typing this.

It's cool to live near the woods with all the wildlife. Here is a picture from over the winter of five deer grazing in my backyard taken from the chair I'm sitting in now:

We had a pretty harsh winter with the ground covered in snow for about 2 months straight. I felt bad for the deer so I used my snowblower to clear some paths on my lawn so they could graze on the grass. They must have been waiting in the woods nearby since it wasn't more than 20 minutes before they decended on my yard and went to town eating!

I'm very fortunate. It is easy to forget how messed up the world is and how my suffering there is.

--Dean

 

[Sthira]

There's therapeutic value in caring as well. Getting down in the dirt and digging around and weeding have become unexpectedly pleasurable activities for me. I'm city, so kinda clueless, but moved into an Amish community during the pandemic to care for my mom. She developed Alzheimer's and has fallen apart. But in her lifetime she created such a beautiful ornamental backyard garden. It's filled with flowers. Few seem edible -- it's beauty -- and would be heartbreaking to let it go to the weeds. Yet it's also consistent work to get out there and tug the dandelions and the native grasses.

You have quite a rich vegetable garden, Dean. For me, it's been wonderful to coexist within the Amish community, and seeing the simple care they put into their small gardens. Their gardens look so perfect. People in simple clothes of all ages are out there hoeing and digging up weeds, they smile and wave and it all seems very gentle and sweet.

Can you eat the skin of the pawpaw fruit?

[Dean Pomerleau]

There are several Amish communities not too far from us in Western PA. They are admirable folk. Sorry about your mom. That's got to be really hard. Nice of you to help take care of her and her garden.

Pawpaw skin probably wouldn't harm you, but it's basically identical to mango skin - not appealing.

BTW, as to your other previous question, I'm still following my same-old bastardized CR routine - eating many more calories than others around here but also expending a lot more too via exercise and yard work so as to maintain a BMI around 18.5.

It sounds like you are still doing quite a bit of fasting and find them beneficial. My last fast was four-day one a couple months ago in preparation for a routine colonoscopy. I can definitely see the appeal of the lightness I was feeling near the end.

--Dean

[pwonline]

Dean was that taken currently? it looks serene but also cold lol

Dean I can tell you enjoy being able to reach and help others. You are one of the most interesting person I have come across. You have so many talents, hobbies, passions, life experiences you could impact on others. Have you considered creating a YouTube channel? I would think you will actually be famous (quite lucrative also) by doing so, you have so many amazing things that I would love to see your wisdom. Just use a phone camera and start with just your garden. I hope you'll consider it, you inspire me! Also an update I've added 3 more foods to my diet, flaxseeds, coconut oil and brewers yeast. That gives me a total of 2194 daily calories. I hope to gradually gain weight (muscle+fat). Again I honestly believe you saved my life, even my mother couldn't get me to eat more and I now understand I had body dysmorphia and if I carried on I would have done serious irreversible damage. I'm eternally grateful, God bless your soul! 

[Dean Pomerleau]

1 hour ago, pwonline said:

Dean was that taken currently? it looks serene but also cold lol

No! That was from February. Here is a picture from a couple weeks ago:

One of the local deer parked her baby in my garden for the day, nestled amongst the spearmint next to the house tucked under a bay window.. I almost fell over when I noticed it, no more than 4 ft from where I was picking herbs. I learned it is quite common for deer to do this with their newborns, which are able to walk but not very well, making them vulnerable to predators. So the mom leaves them hunkered down in a safe spot for the day while she goes out to forage. We felt honored that she entrusted her child to us for the day and we made sure it wasn't disturbed. 

I'm not a big fan of coconut oil, but what you need now is calories and for those coconut oil is certainly a good source. The flax seeds (presumably ground) and brewer's yeast are great additions!

--Dean 

[Dean Pomerleau]

1 hour ago, pwonline said:

Just use a phone camera and start with just your garden. 

Here is a playlist of my garden videos. 

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhXzNtiCMCqnrEVFbYgE8t8_XoE9DX7Nt

They have garnered me neither fame nor fortune, which is just fine with me.

I've also documented my garden in this thread :

--Dean 

 

[pwonline]

4 hours ago, Dean Pomerleau said:

No! That was from February. Here is a picture from a couple weeks ago:

One of the local deer parked her baby in my garden for the day, nestled amongst the spearmint next to the house tucked under a bay window.. I almost fell over when I noticed it, no more than 4 ft from where I was picking herbs. I learned it is quite common for deer to do this with their newborns, which are able to walk but not very well, making them vulnerable to predators. So the mom leaves them hunkered down in a safe spot for the day while she goes out to forage. We felt honored that she entrusted her child to us for the day and we made sure it wasn't disturbed. 

I'm not a big fan of coconut oil, but what you need now is calories and for those coconut oil is certainly a good source. The flax seeds (presumably ground) and brewer's yeast are great additions!

--Dean 

Wow that's so amazing and nice, see anything you post makes me happy haha. And wow the mother probably trust you more than her own species! Once you show the mother that her trust in you is correct she would trust you further and maybe even approach you in years to come. I would definitely see her doing this yearly after this year!

 I got extra virgin cold pressed 100% raw coconut oil. I don't want to add more carbs and anymore vegetables bloats me to much. Each of my meal consists of 150g raw collard greens and 150g raw broccoli, I'm constantly bloated and it's actually affecting my bowl movements (I have less) so my only other option was to consume more fat and I was taking in 3 tablespoons of EVOO and I didn't want to increase that because of the polyunsaturated fat so I rather have the safe saturated fat. I've noticed I feel guilty when I eat tasty food and eating coconut oil is like heaven! anyway I'm over the moon with my diet, it's far from ideal but it's probably healthier than 99% of what people consume. My ratio of omega 3 to omega 6 is...1:1 !!! 9.8g Omega 3 to 9.7g Omega 6! anyway thanks Dean, I'll hopefully post in future with an increased BMI and I honestly don't think I would ever decrease my calories below 2200, but to be honest coronometer says I burned like 2600 calories so even at 2200 I might now put weight on but I'll just increase my fat intake. Thanks for the pictures, their delightful

[pwonline]

4 hours ago, Dean Pomerleau said:

Here is a playlist of my garden videos. 

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhXzNtiCMCqnrEVFbYgE8t8_XoE9DX7Nt

They have garnered me neither fame nor fortune, which is just fine with me.

I've also documented my garden in this thread :

--Dean 

 

OMG yes! so happy, I'm going to watch it now! THANKYOU for showing me you have one, let me have a look

[paula]

Dean thanks for helping this guy. I also benefited years ago from your advice when I saw that article in the economist about the mega muffins and was afraid to die. It was fun getting so much thinner at first eating only super nutrients until it went too far and kaiser put me in an eating disorder program. I never fully recovered from the high I get from that way of life but I have moderated it enough to stay out of the hospital. All the diseases the eating disorder doctor predicted I would get I still have. It takes a long time to recover from malnutrition. I now have osteoporosis, seriously low blood sodium, iron anemia, bad sarcopenia, etc. I still see advantages to calorie restriction. My heart is very healthy, my arthritis hardly ever flares, except when I eat sandwiches and such, for example on tours like one I just took in Scotland. I can control my insulin pretty well, protein helps with that. Its a balancing act.The best way for me to restrict calories is to restrict metabolism so I don't lose weight. This has to be moderated with exercise and cold, used as a tool. Exercise and cold are useful, though they also increase metabolism which needs calories.

Now I must mention the fun factor, the Scotland thing is a good example. Its not all about longevity. Sometimes the tradeoffs are healthful in themselves. I know now when I love some food or activity regardless of what the science says and I honor that. Dancing, kabocha and affogato are examples of that experience. Doing what I love is healthy, and I can honor shared eating many ways. Thanks for still being there dean and also to McCoy. You guys have seen a lot over the years.

[IgorF]

On 6/5/2022 at 7:13 PM, pwonline said:

Also thanks to Dean I'm doing a complete U turn on CR. This was a journey that took me 6 months, In those 6 months I went through strict keto, 3mad, 2mad, omad. Had my omad at 7am, then changed to 11am then changed to 5pm.

I had a faze I only ate chilled food. I listened to all sorts of advocates of particular diets, some scientist saying it's carbs others saying it's all calories others saying it's veganism and protein is bad. All highly esteemed professionals, yet most of them look like they could lose some weight.

So now I've completed my journey and have come out on the other end (BIG THANKS TO DEAN) with this diet. I eat 2 meals a day and no snacking. 11am and 3pm. My diet consists of low GI whole grains, legumes, vegetables, eggs, fish, seeds, nuts, olive oil.

I do weight training before I open my fast at 11am so I boost HGH and lower insulin. I also go for 30 minute walk after my second meal to help with digestion and lower glucose quickly. I eat the exact same meal everyday so it's easy to adjust calories which I have full control of. I don't snack, don't eat processed foods or junk. have a strict sleeping pattern of 9pm to 5:30am (8.5 hours sleep) and wear amber glasses two hours before sleep so I have good production of melatonin. I drink 4 litres of water a day.

Just to add few cents based on an own similar trajectory.

I was slower to switch different things, did not went between extremes, never taken seriously low-carbs dietes without clear case and reasonable clarification (e.g. people know what they are trying to beat with it and understand the price). I used to read a lot of discussions available here, a lot of articles, almost all popular books from the authors with good reputation here, all podcasts of Peter Attia with many interesting people, that have proven record on health-related topics and I came to the following conclusions:

- longevity benefits of CR are still questionable for me but I am sticking to have it in some slight way e.g. 5%, maybe temporary

- the regulatory mechanisms in the body forms so sophisticated networks with conditional control loops that makes it almost impossible for me to create a mechanically understandable picture and to follow it

- it worse to pay attention and target already better studied dangerous things that are connected to the diet and lifestile and here the 2 of the major ones already discussed many times - glucose and lipids

- it is much more hard to do it than it looks like until you start to measure them regularly, even w/o dietary tunings

What I discovered in my case that changing the carbs/fat balance from 53-57/33-37/10 to something like 45x/45x/10 with EVOO raises my cholesterol upper than I wanted to see it. The same change with nuts does not but at the same time I have lower energy.

I think I am not well-adapted to use fats for energy and it would be better to stick with less of them but in this case targeting fatty acid requirements (some of them are maybe senseless, some are proven to be beneficial) will not be easy (I am doing the tests rarely and I doubt about possibility to have a good profile with supplements and idea that only 3 unsaturated are of higher importance is a weak one, we just know too little about this, it will take decades to learn more perhaps)

With glucose the story is even worse, while I can rely on nuts and seeds and take 2 big o3 pills and go with good enough values for apolipoB I can't do the same with glucose. It just dances around 78-105 with most of the time being at 90 (I have an SNP that statistically looks like raising it a few percent above the median if it could be trusted that way). This happens within almost the same dietary framework and the same behavior. It even sometimes switches from the lower insulin resistance to the higher, for weeks, w/o any identifiable reason. I read about fructose switch and cross-checked - it happened on a relatively innocent level, comparing to some I had in the past w/o such switching.

Also trying to be a bit CR sometimes I am missing my sleep target approximately one hour, this is exactly like Matt Walker described in his book about sleep - an animal is raised by the hormonal framework if a bit more hungry that expected by the regulatory machinery. And like other things related to glucose - no pattern to predict except tha chances higher when the daily delta is -50-100kkal for several days

Also I have sometimes longer glucose peaks after the evening meal that will not go away without some workout.

And the body is adapting to the workouts in an unpleasant way - now it reacts harder to the load, maybe I have to decrease the total calories intake a bit but at a risk of starting to loose weight again.

It took me several tubes of home total cholesterol test strips, a few apolipoB and cheap lipidograms in the labs to understand my patterns of lipids and much more stripes for glucose, a few controls in the labs, a few hba1cs and insulin tests and several 10days with a cgm to see what a caprise and unpredictable thing my glucose is. It just does not work as models are describing it, or in other words - it requires much, much more sophisticated model that will not be understandable by a human brain, rather like weather prediction calculations done by modern megacrunchers.

My glucose/insulin values sometimes are forming slight resistance via well-known calculation models but every person who consumes more than a trace amount of fructose perhaps will have such, so I assume I am not too much different.

Maybe my glucose complication can be fixed switching from almost vegan diet style to lactose like some people here are describing but I want to try to stay "plants only" in the midlife, so until now - I have no idea how to control my glucose better.

 

On the other hand we just know that the area under the curve is a good aggregate estimate, in other words - the lower the time we exposed to high apolipoB and glucose - the better our chances statistically.

And picking these 4 factors together - lipids, glucose, sleep and CR forms "a glass with moving glass balls on it that a man should balance somehow without losing one of them". I was not even close to understand how hard it is when I started to experiment with all these things and my case is not complicated, at least yet.

 

So even getting back from a serious undernutrition (and unbalanced diet, I doubt if it is really possible to target all the required nutrients in 1700kcal without a cup of supplements) it could make sense to do a lot of blood tests, not once in a few months like people with many years stable personal frameworks are doing but rather with curiosity that can help to uncover some individual patterns (e.g. w/o a "healthy" grains even in small ammounts my postmeal peaks are occuring 3 time less often but they are not disappeared completely, I suspect I should have not, let's say 2x30g carbs sources but 6x10g but this is messy to deal with).

(there are also some other things that are nice to have / to know, e.g. fructose and uric acid, fatty acids profile, aminoacids profile if a lot of protein, growth factors, hormones, unwanted things like heavy metals and pesticides and so on, so there is much more even "generic" targets but without measuring somehow them it is questionable if it worse to target them, this could easily change the balance of "big contributors" above w/o benefits like it happened with many molecules commercially promoted in the last decades)

Br,

Igor