Has anyone seen Bryan Johnson's Project Blueprint?

[Ron Put]

9 hours ago, Gordo said:

A review of the blueprint by Vice:

https://www.vice.com/en/article/epzyza/bryan-johnson-the-blueprint-age-reversing-diet-review

Like most things Vice, the review is semi-idiotic. I would not go by the not-so-healthy looking "Hey Man" columnist thinks about diets. And I didn't' really want to know about the size and buoyancy of his stool.

For what it's worth, countless people in the developing world subsist on lentils and other legumes, and if more Vice readers ate 300+ grams a day, it's likely the UK obesity rate would go down significantly, and their Covid mortality would likely have been much lower.

But I do question the wisdom of the bucketful of supplements, too.

 

[Saul]

9 hours ago, Gordo said:

A review of the blueprint by Vice:

https://www.vice.com/en/article/epzyza/bryan-johnson-the-blueprint-age-reversing-diet-review

Hi Gordo!

I looked over the commentary.  IMO, the commentary is, to put it mildly, worthless  -- the person who wrote it eats like a pig; he/she has a terrible SAD diet.  There's no question that, whatever you think of the "blueprint", it's infinitely better than the commentary.

  --  Saul

[mccoy]

Quote

But I do question the wisdom of the bucketful of supplements, too.

The list may be useful as a directional, general indication to those practicing severe (25%) vegan CR. Very practical, since dosages and brands (products) are indicated.

Such supplements have also been arguably screened by pretty rigorous expert guys in that field. Probably, given the amount of money spent in medical consultations, examinations and so on.

Edited February 12, 2023 by mccoy

[Gordo]

 

[Guest]

I have 2 conflicting views on this story.....

 

I can appreciate, that he takes care of himself really well. Healthy diet. Exercising. Sleep. Weight. Reducing stress. Optimizing nutrition. Doing regular tests to identify problems. If that's the takeaway and 90% of the population would follow it, everyone would be a lot healthier. That's not rocket science - but a good thing to do.

 

On the other hand I find the rhetoric and headline grabbing claims quite off-putting. No, he didn't reverse his age by 8 years or to that of an 18 year old, not even in one particular organ. All the hallmarks of aging are progressively occurring and can not by quickly reversed by current medical technology. His burden of atherosclerotic plaque didn't suddenly reverse. His senescent cell burden didn't degress. And so on.

He didn't break "world records" in aging. Not yet at least. All the sales-pitch stuff is based on largely un-validated "clocks" and "aging-meters" that can't be taken serious at this point in time.

 

Oh; and taking one million of the 2 million in annual doctor fees and expensive tests - and donating it to certain research foundations - would probably make more of an impact even on his own long-term health. From TAME-trial to LEV-foundation - 10 Million USD can still make a considerable difference in advancing the field.

[Saul]

48 minutes ago, Guest said:

I have 2 conflicting views on this story.....

 

I can appreciate, that he takes care of himself really well. Healthy diet. Exercising. Sleep. Weight. Reducing stress. Optimizing nutrition. Doing regular tests to identify problems. If that's the takeaway and 90% of the population would follow it, everyone would be a lot healthier. That's not rocket science - but a good thing to do.

 

On the other hand I find the rhetoric and headline grabbing claims quite off-putting. No, he didn't reverse his age by 8 years or to that of an 18 year old, not even in one particular organ. All the hallmarks of aging are progressively occurring and can not by quickly reversed by current medical technology. His burden of atherosclerotic plaque didn't suddenly reverse. His senescent cell burden didn't degress. And so on.

He didn't break "world records" in aging. Not yet at least. All the sales-pitch stuff is based on largely un-validated "clocks" and "aging-meters" that can't be taken serious at this point in time.

 

Oh; and taking one million of the 2 million in annual doctor fees and expensive tests - and donating it to certain research foundations - would probably make more of an impact even on his own long-term health. From TAME-trial to LEV-foundation - 10 Million USD can still make a considerable difference in advancing the field.

I agree completely.

  --  Saul

[mccoy]

7 hours ago, Guest said:

He didn't break "world records" in aging. Not yet at least. All the sales-pitch stuff is based on largely un-validated "clocks" and "aging-meters" that can't be taken serious at this point in time.

If you watch the video posted by Gordo at a certain point he speaks about the biological clocks, the world records, and adds: '.. to be taken with a grain of salt'. Promptly, Oliver zolman, his consulting aging expert, adds: '..with a barrel of salt'.

So, the 75% rejuvenation is something which is good on paper, which must be reasoned out by both Bryan Johnson and his consultant (who developed the 78-organs concept)

[Dean Pomerleau]

Well said @Guest. My vegan diet and meal timing are quite similar to his,which is interesting, although I eat a lot more calories and exercise a lot more than he does. I'm also a lot thinner, although I read here that he has done fat injections (in his face) so that might be part of it. 

It's pretty clear to me that he wouldn't look like that on 2000 kcal per day and 10 minutes of HIIT without the testosterone supplements he's taking, which IMO may not be wise from a longevity perspective. 

Is it just me or does Bryan Johnson look a lot like a slightly older version of Michael Rae from 2008, but on steroids? Here is Michael circa 2008:

And here is BJ:

The resemblance is uncanny if you ask me. But at least in this interview, Bryan doesn't look very healthy to me. 

I'll give him this though - He's doing what I've long advocated, namely he is going out on a limb for what he considers to be a worthwhile cause and he has the resources and self-discipline to pursue it. I wish him luck and I'm confident that the rest of us can learn something from him no matter whether he lives forever or crashes and burns in his pursuit of immortality. 

Both his philosophy and health regime remind me a lot of Ray Kurzweil. Even his appearance, although Ray is a lot older and in worse shape. They both have what I think of as an "ancient child" appearance, and both come off as a bit of a huckster although from what I can tell, BJ at least seems sincere in his beliefs. 

--Dean 

[Dean Pomerleau]

He also looks (and sounds!) like Data from Star Trek. 🙂

[Gordo]

3 hours ago, Dean Pomerleau said:

The resemblance is uncanny if you ask me.

I was thinking more along the lines of Data from Star Trek:

 

[Gordo]

2 hours ago, Dean Pomerleau said:

He also looks (and sounds!) like Data from Star Trek. 🙂

You beat me to it but I submitted mine before I saw your post! 

But in all sincerity, Bryan if you read this, I actually do greatly admire all that you are doing and the fact that you are doing rigorous testing and publishing your protocol and data, its a nice contribution to the science of aging.  I think the click bait thumb nails like "escape death" are a bit much but I get the need for grabbing attention, haha.  At best, all of these things you are doing will potentially extend your life by perhaps 30 years beyond average which of course is a lot, and who knows in those extra 30 years of time bought perhaps the real technology for life extension will arise...  I'm sure you will be among the first to try every promising new development in the field and because of your willingness to share results that will be quite useful for the rest of us mere mortals 😉

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Gordo

[Saul]

🙂

 

[Dean Pomerleau]

@Gordogreat minds think alike! 😀

I also agree with everything you said. 

[Dean Pomerleau]

Bryan Johnson has a really interesting philosophy - that what the world needs is more and better cooperation if we are going to survive (let alone thive). The need for better cooperation starts within ourselves - we have conflicting persona within us that often cause us to make choices that aren't in our overall best interest (e.g. eating crap, drinking too much alcohol, not getting enough sleep, etc.). 

He seems to advocate (voluntarily) giving over one's autonomy to an algorithm (and eventually to AIs) to make lifestyle decision for us, decisions he hopes will be in our overall best interest. I'm a little skeptical of that - who controls the algorithms?

I'm also skeptical about how much emphasis he places on personal optimization as the path to global cooperation - he seems to think if we can get our personal diet and lifestyle dialed in we'll make better decisions in general, and all will be kumbaya with the world.

It seems to me his approach is rather self-indulgent and self-centered. He's spending millions of dollars to optimize his personal health and longevity. Sure, he's sharing his results with the world which is admirable and I don't begrudge him his indulgences. I just think a) very few people would or could follow his protocol, b) you could get similar results with a very simplified, less-resources intensive regime and c) if he really does want to make the world a better place, his intelligence and resources could be better spent on other projects. I don't know much about his Kernal project, so may that is it.

If he simply wants (as many LE enthusiasts do) to optimize his own health and longevity so he can maybe achieve unlimited lifespan and be part of the singularity of progress some transhumanist think is imminent, fair enough. I'm skeptical of that idea too, but AI is making some pretty rapid progress lately, so who knows.

But couching his efforts as a way to save humanity starting with diet and a bunch of pills seems a bit grandiose bordering on delusional to me.

--Dean

 

[Gordo]

23 minutes ago, Dean Pomerleau said:

I don't know much about his Kernal project, so may that is it.

From wikipedia: Johnson founded Kernel in 2016, investing $100 million of his own money to launch the company.^[25] The company later shifted its focus to building hardware that measures electrical and hemodynamic signals produced by the brain. In 2020, Kernel demonstrated a pair of helmet-like devices that can see and record brain activity. Johnson hopes to bring the brain online with Kernel^{[dubious – discuss]}. Study may include Alzheimer's disease, aging, concussions, meditation states, and strokes.^[26] The company has said the devices may be used to help paralyzed individuals communicate, or people with mental health challenges access new therapies.^[6]

 

26 minutes ago, Dean Pomerleau said:

save humanity starting with diet

In one small segment of the above vid he said he was "hungry all the time" no matter how much he ate, haha.  There is no way to get a lot of people following even the diet portion of his plan.  Most people are like the reviewer from Vice (which I posted as sort of tongue in cheek).  But this raises the question - does it even benefit society for the masses to increase their life expectancy a little?  Maybe the cost burden on society of chronic illness would be reduced, but people will still develop all sorts of health problems in the years before they die (terminal decline) no matter how good their diets are.  Everyone already has a choice to eat healthy and exercise, and most people would rather eat junk food, retire as soon as the government will pay them (social security) and die around age 80.  

But this actually brings up another interesting development I don't remember seeing discussed yet on these forums.  Weight loss drugs (that actually work) have suddenly become ALL THE RAGE and trending like never before (Novo Nordisk seems to be the main big pharma beneficiary).  I believe its a hormone that makes you feel full after just a few bites of food, they were originally developed for the diabetes market.  This has become a weird new way for people to do calorie restriction without feeling hungry.  A relative of mine lost 70 lbs using one of these drugs (Saxenda) so I know first hand that it works.  There could be millions of people doing this soon (a once a week self injection version is now out, but it's really expensive, pill form also coming) it will be interesting to see it all unfold.  

 

[Dean Pomerleau]

2 hours ago, Gordo said:

Kernel demonstrated a pair of helmet-like devices that can see and record brain activity... 

Now I really know he is a huckster... 

Regarding the new effective weight drugs. Has your relative tried discontinuing the drug after losing the weight? I hear the weight and hunger comes back with a vengeance and restarting the drug can trigger nausea. But that was anecdotal. 

[mccoy]

2 hours ago, Gordo said:

But this actually brings up another interesting development I don't remember seeing discussed yet on these forums

Semaglutide has been previously hinted at in a thread initiated by InquilineKea, but inthe context of glucose control.

Apparently it grants over 10 kg weight loss on the average, but the weight comes back after ceasing, as Dean says.

semaglutide has been discussed, not at a length, in Peter Attia's drive with Stephan Guyenet as a host.

[Gordo]

18 hours ago, Dean Pomerleau said:

Has your relative tried discontinuing the drug after losing the weight? I hear the weight and hunger comes back with a vengeance 

Yes, she was on it for maybe 8 months, as soon as she got off she just started eating exactly the same way she used to eat which led to obesity in the first place, she gained 10 lbs fast and then got back on the drug and went back to losing weight. Perhaps this is just the new version of yoyo dieting, or perhaps people will just stay on it for life which would make big pharma happy 😊 She hasn't mentioned any side effects other than feeling full, it's actually really cool to see her eat a few bites and then stop and say "I can't eat anymore, I'm full, I'll save the rest for tomorrow".  

It wouldn't surprise me if these were to become thought of as life extension drugs like metformin at some future point.

[Ron Put]

38 minutes ago, Gordo said:

It wouldn't surprise me if these were to become thought of as life extension drugs like metformin at some future point.

Unlikely, IMO. I just di a quick search:

Slippery Slope: Diet Drugs No Help for Heart

And see this, too:

Long-term Victoza use linked to higher blood glucose levels, study claims

 

[CR Curious]

It would be amazing if Bryan would do an AMA or something. I think what he's doing is really awesome and it's especially great that he's willing to talk publicly given the amount of vitriol he gets for doing something that could benefit everyone. In the things I've read or listened to, I have agreed with pretty much everything he says. I hope he is planning to become more of a public presence in nutrition discussions (though probably not--he has better things to do!). I would love to see him have a conversation with Attia, Rhonda Patrick, Huberman, etc. And especially with some of the bodybuilder types who seem especially skeptical of calorie/protein restriction like Layne Norton. Kernel seems great, too.

I've been wondering about his routines since I read the Bloomberg story on Blueprint. Some questions I'm curious about (especially if he's reading this!):

• Most basically, I would like to know Bryan's take on CR in humans. Obviously, he seems to be bought in, but (of course) there is a lot of controversy on whether it will even work in humans. How was he convinced that CR will have benefits? Is it all about biomarkers he is tracking? If so, which biomarkers?
  • Bryan's view appears to be that the lowest bodyfat % possible is best, at least until ~6%. Is that true?
• Relatedly, there is the Peter Attia approach, which is to eat a lot of protein and maximize muscle mass to avoid frailty. Does he have a response to that? I know he does not look frail right now, but the Attia argument is that we all predictably lose muscle as we age so we need to put on as much muscle as possible early in life.
  • Of course, both of these questions touch on the growth-longevity tradeoff--including whether there is any such tradeoff, etc. I view this as raising several related questions, many of which may ultimately implicate the mechanistic stuff on mTor/AMPK/IGF-1.
    • One of these is about protein restriction. Does Bryan have a view on optimal % of protein? And why vegan?
    • Another is fasting. Bryan seems to think fasting is generally good. Is this just about CR, or does he think there are additional benefits?
      • What is Bryan's view on extended fasting? Many people seem to think that ~5 day fasts for autophagy confer outsize benefits. 
    • Related to both of the previous two, it seems that ingesting 20-30g of protein leads to a transient increase in muscle protein synthesis. So if you want to build muscle, you pretty much want to do the opposite of fasting--eat at regularly spaced intervals to ensure that MPS remains elevated. Would be interested if that factors in.
• I am very interested in Bryan's work on optimizing sleep. I have read that he (at least used to) finish eating before 11 am so that his RHR and HRV would return to baseline before bed. I'm intrigued by that but not willing to forego dinner with my significant other. And given that substantial daily fasting seems good, I end up eating a lot of food in the evening. But I worry that this is leading to suboptimal sleep.
  • In his experiments, what was the latest Bryan could eat such that RHR and HRV went back down to baseline?
    • I imagine the relationship here depends both on when and how much you eat. So you can eat a little bit even right before bed and be fine. But if you are eating a huge meal (not uncommon for me to put down 3000 cal for dinner in whole foods, mostly lean protein and non-starchy vegetables, no sweat), it might take several hours. So it's a function both of timing and size.
  • Which leads to a further question: Should I eat more calories earlier in the day? Let's say I finish eating dinner at 7:30 and go to bed at 10:30 pm. Should I be looking to eat as lightly as possible there? So maybe (to the extent possible) I should have a relatively large meal at, e.g., 3:30 pm?
  • I am also curious on the evidence that RHR and HRV are good proxies for sleep quality. I imagine they are, but I'd like to dig in to the evidence on that myself.
  • This is more specific to me than the other questions but I think the sleep stuff is super interesting and important!

In general, I wish Bryan would give more explanation of why he makes the various choices he does in Blueprint. It's admirable that he goes into such detail on the "how," but he could really help move public understanding forward if he (or his team) started writing up their approach.

[Gordo]

The Google algorithm recommended this article to me about metformin that also mentions Bryan:

https://www.insider.com/metformin-diabetes-weight-loss-anti-aging-drug-long-covid-prevention-2023-2

 

People are taking a 20-cent 'wonder drug' to slow aging and lose weight. Some doctors say it's promising.

Bryan Johnson, a wealthy software entrepreneur who recently made headlines for his extreme anti-aging routine, said he is using the drug to prevent precancerous bowel polyps from popping up in his colon and rectum. (Some studies suggest that diabetes patients who take metformin develop fewer colonic polyps, while others show the drug may suppress colorectal-cancer growth.) 

Edited February 16, 2023 by Gordo

[mccoy]

Thanks, I've been wondering why he's taking 2000 mgr metformin with a vegan lowcarb diet and over 1 hour of exercise per day.

[Guest]

On 2/16/2023 at 4:14 AM, Gordo said:

The Google algorithm recommended this article to me about metformin that also mentions Bryan:

https://www.insider.com/metformin-diabetes-weight-loss-anti-aging-drug-long-covid-prevention-2023-2

 

People are taking a 20-cent 'wonder drug' to slow aging and lose weight. Some doctors say it's promising.

Bryan Johnson, a wealthy software entrepreneur who recently made headlines for his extreme anti-aging routine, said he is using the drug to prevent precancerous bowel polyps from popping up in his colon and rectum. (Some studies suggest that diabetes patients who take metformin develop fewer colonic polyps, while others show the drug may suppress colorectal-cancer growth.) 

 

That's actually one of the more questionable aspects of this routine. It belongs in the same bucket as the meager evidence for all-cause mortality of metformin - it's largely based on the same flawed and heavily misreported observational studies, that gave metformin it's (so far) unjustified status as a "star anti-aging drug" in the life-extension community.

There are no RCT for that. And the observational studies are riddled with censoring, selection bias and lack of non-diabetic controls. The SENS-foundation posted an analysis of that a while ago.

Sure - metformin users SEEM to have lower colorectoral cancer incidence compared to other diabetes therapies. But that's based:

 

a) on a population with an increased cancer risk; successfully treating diabetes will bring that increased risk down compared to just letting it run it's course

 

b) 2 major studies (one of them the largest on metformin that exist) had a censoring problem, i.e. people who took metformin, but had to transition to another drug - because their condition worsened - were counted as "not taking metformin to begin with"; so you're really looking only at the best performing diabetes patients, who because of changes in diet, exercise and metformin did not progress in the disease

 

The meta-studies are using the data from these observational trials as they are - often even given a higher weight to the larger studies, which just happen to be particularly badly designed to answer questions on metformin-longevity and cancer results.

[Ron Put]

5 hours ago, Guest said:

b) 2 major studies (one of them the largest on metformin that exist) had a censoring problem, i.e. people who took metformin, but had to transition to another drug - because their condition worsened - were counted as "not taking metformin to begin with"; so you're really looking only at the best performing diabetes patients, who because of changes in diet, exercise and metformin did not progress in the disease

Thank you for pointing this out. I have to read those at some point.

[Gordo]