Help, Advice on how to start Extended water fasts into my life with CRON

[pwonline]

Currently consuming 1850 calories per day

my macro ratios are

Carbs:Protein:Fat = 17:15:68

51% of my diet consists of EVOO, I consume around 108 grams per day (117 ml)

I follow OMAD mornings and feel amazing, my body has become better fat adapted and only past few days have I felt almost endless energy (been on this high fat diet and low carbs for 3 months)

Now I want to incorporate an extended 47 hour fast every other week, I basically miss one meal.

I want to maintain an average of 1850 calories per day, Since my diet is so precise and EXACTLY THE SAME, just the EVOO changes, I thought of two ways to get the same calories.

I will miss the Saturday morning meal

Options

1/ Friday and Sunday meals I share the calories evenly so that will be an additional (1850/2=)925

2/I split the 1850 calories and add them to my none fasting days. So in 14 days with 1 day missing a meal means, (1850/13=)142 calories added to my normal days, so 1850+142 = 1992 calories.

 

I would like the advice of members of this community.

Is it better to keep my calorie lower and just take option 1, so my body only sees a surge in calories for a shorter time or from the perspective of CR is it better to increase my normal day calories?

does anyone have any thoughts? does anyone do something similar to implement extended water fasts?

[pwonline]

So I been thinking about this.

My concern is this, if I share the calories over the other days, my body will think that's the new normal and will kick out of survival mode. Feels as though I'll lose the benefits associated with CRON because my body is more relaxed for more of the time.

But If I split the calories for the fast day and have half the day before and half the day after, My body doesn't have time to adapt to this surplus as this will only be once a week.

I'm going to split it over two days.

I would love people's opinions about which is better option if I want to maintain the benefits of CR. Does anyone have any studies looking into this?

Edit:

Plan B isn't an option LOL. I realised I have to consume 215g EVOO on two of the 14 days. I doubt I can stomach that much EVOO. damn, it has to be option 1 then. only way to do the fasts

[drewab]

I would let your bodyweight dictate on how things play out here in terms of option 1 or option 2. To me, the bigger concern is consuming that much fat through a source that is processed. I know that EVOO is certainly better than butter and is probably the best source of processed oil there is, but when it makes up that much of your diet I do worry about this quite a lot. Why not go for almonds, avocados, walnuts, cocoa, hazelnuts, macadamias, etc? I noticed in another thread that your BMI is 17ish. That is definitely about as low as someone should go. Personally I think it's fine to be there, but I wouldn't drop any lower and would consider going a nudge higher actually (but to each his own here).

I am also curious what the balance of your diet looks like. In another thread I see that you mentioned lentils, legumes, and barley, which are all excellent foods to include in a CR plan. I do wonder about what else you might be including since a broad array of phytonutrients are probably required for health and longevity. As far as I can see there isn't anything else, yet leafy greens, berries, seeds, cruciferous vegetables, allium family vegetables, and so forth are just such rich/abundant sources of phytonutrients and you are missing out on these key items and more. 

Kuddos to the OMAD meal plan though. I've done it at various points and am currently not in the habit. For me, it was truly a habit I needed to do everyday with no exceptions or I would immediately fall off the bandwagon.

[pwonline]

I've added my cronometer for today.

 

I have created a spreadsheet with more accurate data taken from ingredients packets.
I eat the vegetables raw, around 900g a day. I cover all the micronutrients except zinc but I'm not fussed about zinc, being on CRON and OMAD should reduce my RDA compared to the standard.
Would love your opinion on my latest diet.

I've maintained this eating plan for past 3 months without fail. The only thing I've been adjusting is my barley and lentils. I started off with 180g of each! and slowly over time I've reduced to 55g each and replaced those calories with EVOO.

My end goal is near! I want to reduce to 50g each and that will be my "Life Diet". It might sound unimaginable but I plan to eat this everyday, nothing changing. The meal is like heaven every time I eat it.

The amount of EVOO I'm consuming is ALLOT, I understand that but my diet is very clean. I don't microwave food, I eat it straight out of the fridge. I don't cook my barley , just soak it overnight and eat. The lentil I cook on medium heat for 6 minutes. I spent a year optimising this. I've got my omega3 to omega 6 at 1 : 1.05 ratio
 

forgetting how I get my extra calories, do you think my CRON benefits are better with option 1 so I keep my 1850 calories except increase those on Saturday and Monday. Or add to my baseline over the other 13 days?

by my estimation I'll consume around 45 litres of EVOO a year LMAO. I've been thinking I should allow myself to be studied. I honestly have done this for past 3 months and I'm very strict with everything. I measure everything. I have timings.

Please advise on what's better for CR and give your reasoning. Thankyou so much!

[pwonline]

8 hours ago, drewab said:

Why not go for almonds, avocados, walnuts, cocoa, hazelnuts, macadamias, etc?

I'm around 1.5g / kg bodyweight. I don't want to increase my protein anymore because of MTor. That's why I just want to add more fat

[mccoy]

On 11/27/2022 at 7:31 PM, pwonline said:

I eat the vegetables raw, around 900g a day. 

Congratulations for being able to eat a pound of raw broccoli, I would stop after 10% of it.

On 11/27/2022 at 7:31 PM, pwonline said:

I cover all the micronutrients except zinc but I'm not fussed about zinc, being on CRON and OMAD should reduce my RDA compared to the standard.

I never heard about it.

On 11/27/2022 at 9:06 PM, pwonline said:

I'm around 1.5g / kg bodyweight. I don't want to increase my protein anymore because of MTor. That's why I just want to add more fat

I think it's pretty difficult to overstimulate mTOR with nuts and avocados. First, their protein content is not fully digested usually (unlesss you eat creams of nuts), second they do not contain abundance of the triggering aminoacid leucine nor the abundance of methionine needed to provide a strong IGF1-insulin signal; third, minimum ileal absorption of nut proteins (excluding roasted pistachios) is not ideal (low DIAAS), so you may be deficient in one or more EAAs (cronometer will not tell you this).

But, are you really so light? according to the numbers you provided (64.3 g protein per day) and that being 1.5 g/kg  you should weigh a little more than 40 kg. which is extremely low, unless your height is a low value as well...

[pwonline]

On 1/1/2023 at 8:57 PM, mccoy said:

Congratulations for being able to eat a pound of raw broccoli, I would stop after 10% of it.

I never heard about it.

I think it's pretty difficult to overstimulate mTOR with nuts and avocados. First, their protein content is not fully digested usually (unlesss you eat creams of nuts), second they do not contain abundance of the triggering aminoacid leucine nor the abundance of methionine needed to provide a strong IGF1-insulin signal; third, minimum ileal absorption of nut proteins (excluding roasted pistachios) is not ideal (low DIAAS), so you may be deficient in one or more EAAs (cronometer will not tell you this).

But, are you really so light? according to the numbers you provided (64.3 g protein per day) and that being 1.5 g/kg  you should weigh a little more than 40 kg. which is extremely low, unless your height is a low value as well...

yesterday I had 499g raw broccoli. I used to get bloated but 3 months in I get zero bloat. When you fast for 23 hours and then eat anything, it's taste is heightened. also when you eat the same food then you look forward to it again. and lastly lol look at my diet, my foods appear bland to you, I don't add salt or anything to my food except the barley, but I deliberately limit my enjoyment of food but ironically every time I eat my meal it's like so fulfilling and satisfying. The veg alone takes 45 minutes of focus eating and constant chewing.

like I've mentioned I like to limit my enjoyment of my 'fuel', adding nuts to replace the evoo wouldn't work with that philosophy.

Yes I'm 46kg, height 167 cm BMI 16.6

I think I might damage myself if I carry on with this low BMI but I'd like to continue on and see what happens. my calorie intake is good at 1850 but my reluctance to be in surplus calories means I shouldn't increase my fat percentage thus have a low BMI.

I'm currently eating 40 grams of barley + lentils, in 2 weeks that will reduce to my final goal of 35g of barley + lentils then I plan to fast on saturdays and the other days i'll consume 2003 calories instead of 1850 calories so it still evens out at 1850 calories per day.

Either I'll reduce my life expectancy with this lifestyle or relatively increase it, time will tell

[mccoy]

8 minutes ago, pwonline said:

I think I might damage myself if I carry on with this low BMI but I'd like to continue on and see what happens.

8 minutes ago, pwonline said:

Either I'll reduce my life expectancy with this lifestyle or relatively increase it, time will tell

PW, I understand and admire your stoicism toward food, but the gambling attitude sounds a little excessive. If you want to try the experiment I would run regular blood tests, also on hormones and other significant parameters (maybe you already posted them in another thread).

If all is good and you feel good, well, everyone is entitled to the look (BMI) they like better.

[pwonline]

3 minutes ago, mccoy said:

PW, I understand and admire your stoicism toward food, but the gambling attitude sounds a little excessive. If you want to try the experiment I would run regular blood tests, also on hormones and other significant parameters (maybe you already posted them in another thread).

If all is good and you feel good, well, everyone is entitled to the look (BMI) they like better.

I plan to get basic bloodwork once a year free from my doctor. thanks for the concern. I wish I knew I started of with higher BMI say 18 with this 1850 calorie intake. for now I'll continue but monitor my weight. I think increasing my calories to 2003 on my none fast day would work, so I should have more energy in general and then have only 1 day of struggle. my macros are close for staying in ketosis and strangely enough i'm really excited to incorporate 47 hour weekly water fast into my lifestyle!

I like this "pain" i'm putting myself through, gives me strength and mental fortitude and reminds me that we are inconsequential and have a finite use of our physical bodies.

[Dean Pomerleau]

I agree with mccoy here. Doing a weekly 47 hour fast with a BMI of 16.6 is asking for trouble. But hey, it's your life. 

[mccoy]

3 hours ago, pwonline said:

I like this "pain" i'm putting myself through, gives me strength and mental fortitude and reminds me that we are inconsequential and have a finite use of our physical bodies.

I know the attitude because I also used to be like that. But mental fortitude should not be at the expense of health and efficiency, it can be achieved in many other constructive ways.

As a side remark, reinforcing Dean's answer, when 22 (that is 40 years ago when optimized CR did not exist) I reached a BMI of exactly 17 and went through some fasts on top of it, my justification was to improve digestive function.

The result was disastrous, my digestive function was impaired because of malnutrition, not because of  eating. I went through 6 hard months, with digestive problems, weakness and anemia, it took me some time to recover. I'll never forget that lesson.

Edited January 3, 2023 by mccoy

[pwonline]

4 hours ago, Dean Pomerleau said:

I agree with mccoy here. Doing a weekly 47 hour fast with a BMI of 16.6 is asking for trouble. But hey, it's your life. 

 

4 hours ago, mccoy said:

I know the attitude because I also used to be like that. But mental fortitude should not be at the expense of health and efficiency, it can be achieved in many other constructive ways.

As a side remark, reinforcing Dean's answer, when 22 (that is 40 years ago when optimized CR did not exist) I reached a BMI of exactly 17 and went through some fasts on top of it, my justification was to improve digestive function.

The result was disastrous, my digestive function was impaired because of malnutrition, not because of  eating. I went through 6 hard months, with digestive problems, weakness and anemia, it took me some time to recover. I'll never forget that lesson.

thanks Dean & mccoy.
After consideration and evaluation of how I'm currently feeling, I'm slightly scared that you are both correct and I'll further devolve into my eating disorder. For the foreseeable future I'm holding of any fast days. I haven't had blood work done in a year I believe so booking that to see if my current diet is showing any signs of red flags.

mccoy was that when you increased your bmi?

[mccoy]

3 hours ago, pwonline said:

mccoy was that when you increased your bmi?

Regaining weight was difficult, it took months to go back to a BMI of 22, with the help of exercise.

My BMI afterwards has been ranging from 21 to 25.6, the highest values when I increased skeletal muscle mass (which usually comes with some increase of adiposity). I avoid the lowest BMIs because I look too emaciated.

[IgorF]

3 hours ago, pwonline said:

if my current diet is showing any signs of red flags

I am a bit higher but not too much and I never was a wide guy. When I had 1700-1800kcal daily for a long time I drifted down slowly and when my BMI started to oscilate in the lower 19, thus lower then my weight on a peak of development (approx 25 years old) a doctor who did an ultrasound / chest pic on a regular check asked me what is wrong with me and when I told like "nothing, I just decided to be like this" he told me with all possible delicacy that it is highly unrecommended to do such things, my back did not looked like something that will have low chances for osteoporosys in the later years.

And I was convinced and redesigned my lifestyle back to the higher energy and BMI.

So I would say, in your case bmi of 16.6 is the most visible red flag available now, bloodwork is a separate thing, it could not predict bones problems in the future as well as organ canibalization that takes place silently on such hard diets.

Br,

Igor

 

[Gordo]

22 hours ago, pwonline said:

my eating disorder

Self awareness is the first step towards recovery.

[pwonline]

21 hours ago, IgorF said:

I am a bit higher but not too much and I never was a wide guy. When I had 1700-1800kcal daily for a long time I drifted down slowly and when my BMI started to oscilate in the lower 19, thus lower then my weight on a peak of development (approx 25 years old) a doctor who did an ultrasound / chest pic on a regular check asked me what is wrong with me and when I told like "nothing, I just decided to be like this" he told me with all possible delicacy that it is highly unrecommended to do such things, my back did not looked like something that will have low chances for osteoporosys in the later years.

And I was convinced and redesigned my lifestyle back to the higher energy and BMI.

So I would say, in your case bmi of 16.6 is the most visible red flag available now, bloodwork is a separate thing, it could not predict bones problems in the future as well as organ canibalization that takes place silently on such hard diets.

Br,

Igor

 

are you referring to calorie intake?
my extreme weight loss was because I was on 1600 calories for months before Dean helped me realise it's too low.

[pwonline]

2 hours ago, Gordo said:

Self awareness is the first step towards recovery.

am I really that bad though. yes i admitt i'm obsessed with this diet and lifestyle, I'm shutting of my friends and family so I can carry on with this BUT have a look at my actual diet. low carb, 11-12 servings of vegetables, grains, legumes, sardines, almonds, flax seed, olive oil. hitting my micro nutrients.

and 1850 calories is pretty good, not even the lowest that CR Practioners do?

 

[pwonline]

21 hours ago, mccoy said:

Regaining weight was difficult, it took months to go back to a BMI of 22, with the help of exercise.

My BMI afterwards has been ranging from 21 to 25.6, the highest values when I increased skeletal muscle mass (which usually comes with some increase of adiposity). I avoid the lowest BMIs because I look too emaciated.

i'll monitor myself, but appreciate your input, I'm sure I'll first need to increase my bmi in the near future, then work on calorie intake but right now I plan to not fast but keep consuming 1850 calories, my nutrition isn't lacking. 1850 is a good amount of calories?

[mccoy]

23 hours ago, pwonline said:

1850 is a good amount of calories?

I would say, increase it until you hit BMI 19 or best 20 (making sure you exercise so that BMI will reflect mainly an increase in lean mass).

After that, you can choose the lowest calorie level which will allow you to remain around BMI 20.

After all discussions in this forum, it would seem that the optimum BMI for longevity in most people is around 20-22, so that (the lower bound in your case, 20) should be the target, otherwise you are going to practice CR for the sake of itself and not for the sake of longevity and healthspan, on the contrary perhaps achieving the opposite results.

There are many ways to challenge one's will power, there is no reason to choose something which is maybe going to destroy your health.

For example, if I were younger, I would choose to challenge myself with a BMI of 23 but a very low adiposity of 7-8%, which can be achieved with focused willpower, a ketogenic diet and lots of exercise. Your cosmetic look would also improve and you would not need to socially isolate yourself. Exercise also appears to be one of the main beneficial factors for healthspan and longevity.

Edited January 5, 2023 by mccoy