best refs for blood lab ranges for CR practitioners for most common labs (eg CBC)

[kpfleger]

Has anyone built a list of normal ranges for common blood labs for CR diets? Or have links to good data on the subject?

Many labs are affected by CR or other healthy diets. Eg WBC is lower under WFPB vegan & CR diets. BUN levels are lower in low-protein diets. Etc.

I'm aware that Luigi Fontana has published some studies with some lab values (eg https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.0308291101) but I haven't seen any papers that cover even the full range of stuff a super-common & inexpensive CBC would provide. Eg BUN is not in that paper. The CALERIE cohort has been studied extensively with several papers published---do any datasets publicly available anywhere present the summary stats for most CBC blood labs for this cohort? I know Fontana did some work with members of the CR Society a ways back---is there a summary table with labs for those tests that covers more than the basic half dozen CVD risk factors? I don't have time to trace down all the papers and study what's provided in the supplemental material at the moment, and curious if someone else has done that or if they know of a place where researchers have put the summary stats data for the broader list of markers.

I know Dean has shared his labs in these forums. Have there been any efforts to collect more than n=1 here, even if only n=5ish or something like that?

[Saul]

I submitted my numbers several years ago.  They haven't changed significantly.

Many believe in privacy.

  --  Saul

[kpfleger]

Sure, I don't expect lots of people to share with attribution to the individual level. I'm more wanting summary stats from large cohorts like CALERIE or semi-large cohorts like the groups Fontana gathered data from, where the summary stats give away no one's individual numbers.

[mccoy]

On 3/27/2023 at 9:54 PM, Saul said:

Many believe in privacy.

...Whereas others believe in flaunting their values ! There has been a recent thread on this topic, with some values discussed, but I don't remember where exactly.

Edited March 30, 2023 by mccoy

[drewab]

Hi kpfleger,

Dr. Luigi Fontana does outline some of what you are looking for in this outstanding lecture of his. You’ll have to scroll the video ahead a few minutes before it begins. 
 

 

[drewab]

By the way, here’s another great piece of work from Luigi Fontana from the Live Long and Master Aging Podcast.

https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/live-long-and-master-aging/id1211124529?i=1000485502554

This isn’t more than a N=1 sample as you’ve requested, but here’s my bloodwork results after 11.5 years of mild CR. I will also share my “visual” results since sometimes a picture tells a lot in addition to measurable metrics.

[mccoy]

57 minutes ago, drewab said:

This isn’t more than a N=1 sample as you’ve requested,

Well, actually we discovered, in another thread, that the N  raised to at least 4, me included (not practicing conscious CR but DR=dietary restriction).

Edited March 31, 2023 by mccoy

[IgorF]

Thyroid panel for mild CR seems should look like my recent result:

TSH: 1.295 in 0.38-5.33 uIU/ml

FT3: 4 in 3.8-6.6 pmol/l

FT4: 9.74 in 7.86-14.41 pmol/l

T3: 0.73 in 0.83-2 ng/ml

T4: 6.53 in 5.13-14.1 ug/ml

RT3: not tested, supposed to be on the high range

In other words - it could manifest itself as normal with all params on the low-normal (except rT3) or subclinical hypothyroidism (low T3) due to complexity of this, very central to all body functions control network.

 

Here is decision tree for the panel:

https://books.google.com/books?id=zxBqGlxwObYC&pg=RA1-PA59&lpg=RA1-PA59&dq="Fig.+8.1+Evaluation+of+suspected+thyroid+dysfunction"&source=bl&ots=wZ4FE_BvBl&sig=ACfU3U1EMrN2KOhIGKt-ZqZUdF6axz0BKA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwis-4aj8r3_AhXj_CoKHfbgBm4Q6AF6BAghEAM

 

Here is a brief confirmation for CR/fasting and low T3, together with more explanatory text. AFAIR the simplest explanation is like this (https://www.verywellhealth.com/reverse-t3-thyroid-hormone-overview-3233184) - T3 already present is being sunk into rT3 to lower the metabolic rate because of low energy perception/prediction, until it will be fixed

https://books.google.com/books?id=zxBqGlxwObYC&pg=RA1-PA89&dq="These+biochemical+changes+associated+with+illness+are+also+seen+in+other+catabolic+conditions,+including+uncontrolled+diabetes+mellitus,+administration+of+glucocorticoids,+calorically+restricted+diets,+and+fasting."&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiS-a_Zrb7_AhXSzosKHd7jCUwQ6AF6BAgAEAE

 

Thyroid is a hard puzzle, so I think there could be other healthy patterns as well as not ones also.

AFAIR here people reported in the past very different IGF1 values, some people had it normal-high due to diet composition while being on CR but I have no idea how to verify/explain it, the book above states it clear - IGF1 as well as its BP should go down in concordance with most thyroid values above because of interconnected regulation.

Also on extreme cases like some Alan's data posted there (latest bloodwork thread) was a TSH out of the range on the upper side, I think it is not a healthy condition anymore, it is bodies "scream" about starvation, usually TSH is the first thing to be assessed and as scheme above describes it makes sense for the most situations to start from it and uncover the other areas step by step; but the scheme is for disfunctions and normal TSH elevation is just a call to produce thyroid hormones "in a forward way". Thus such temporary states are resolved on their own when the cause is fixed (e.g. curable condition, fasting and so on).

 

Br,

Igor

Edited June 12, 2023 by IgorF

[IgorF]

Some "initiating" sexhormones data - LH and FSH are dependent on leptine, it is expensive to do and I have only one test for it, when I went down with my BMI.

Serum leptine level seems linear (not in the diurnal sense of its variation) in lean people but this beast could be really tough.

My data when I went down with calories deficit, then stopped and decided to get few kilos back and then stabilize weight trying to stay at caloric minimum for the expenditures I am comfort with:

------------------

BMI: 21.7

LH: 3.05 in 1.7-8.6 mIU/ml

Prolactine: 12 in 4.04-15.2 ng/ml

FSH: 3.57 in 1.5-12.4 mIU/ml

------------------

5 weeks later, the same BMI, leptine: 0.54 in 2-5.6 ng/ml

------------------

4.5 months later, BMI 19.5

LH: 0.75 in 1.24-8.62 mIU/ml

Prolactine: 9.27 in 2.64-13.13 ng/ml

FSH: 2.57 in 1.27-19.26 mIU/ml

TT: 184 in 175-781 ng/dl

------------------

4+ months later, moved back BMI to approx 21.7

LH: 1.13 in 1.24-8.62 mIU/ml

Prolactine: 6.94 in 2.64-13.13 ng/ml

FSH: 2.89 in 1.27-19.26 mIU/ml

TT: 266 in 175-781 ng/dl

------------------

10+ months later, BMI 20.8

LH: 1.25 in 1.24-8.62 mIU/ml

Prolactine: 6.01 in 2.64-13.13 ng/ml

FSH: 3.8 in 1.27-19.26 mIU/ml

TT: 276 in 175-781 ng/dl

 

More on leptin and its role in regulation of these things

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC19633/

Actually leptine also has its implication for thyroid hormones also, but this is less visible than (in my case) LH tendency to stay at the lowest low (AFAIR LH is at the beginning of some chains, thus inertia of my data could indicate that body has some more "eagerness" for it and I limited the intake maybe too early from this axis perspective). FSH was able to stay low-normal.

DHEA-s started 86 and finished 85 during this period, it was higher in the middle but maybe due to diet compositions experiments.

No idea if this data could be useful somehow, with my levels at the bottom of my trajectory I definitely had some "mild gonadotropic effects" (asexuality), I thought it could be connected to low testo but now I am more close to rather link it to body energy perception that is the cause of all this stuff to go down for the sake of expenditure minimisation.

Br,

Igor

[IgorF]

Previously I did not tested shbg rather focusing on thyroid and lh,fsh,pl,t pannels. After some reading it seems this one is paired with well studied main cr pathway of insulin/igf1 - it is suppressed by igf1 that itself is increased with insulin. So my context is:

- definitely CR, unfortunately paired with some weight loose in the last 3 months, I am crossing now the "low normal" bmi range

- borderline hematocrit, etc; low normal leukocytes without neu/lym disporoportions, reticolocites reveals no upcoming anemic decreases

- good proteinogram with a lot of albumin, I assume I have all available protein being used for desired goals, no growth etc.

- from "traditional" clinical anemia signs perspective only leg weakness when going 100-200 stairs up is present in some mild degree

- low protein diet, 10% and plants only, this seems forms igf1 value independently of "raw" insulin arm

So the results observed are:

insulin 2.3 in 1.9-23 mU/l

igf1 88 in 53-215 ng/ml

shbg 74.3 in 10-57 nmol/l

total testosterone 208 in 150-684 ng/dl

dihydrotestosterone 141.2 in 143-842 pg/ml

 

To derive some insight on free testo or bioavailable testo (the concept is not widely agreed as important, more in a dedicated book "Controversies in Testosterone Deficiency" - Springer 2021) I used this calc https://www.issam.ch/freetesto.htm

Albumin        4.9
SHBG         74.3
Testosterone     208.2    

Free Testosterone    2.18 ng/dL  =  1.05 %
Bioavailable Testosterone    57.9 ng/dL  =  27.8 %

(this is with the lowest albumin I ever tested, last values were higher giving freeT 1.03-1.01%)

 

Resuming - I would say that the expectation to have high shbg due to low igf1/insulin is observed, and lower available testosterone due to high shbg is what has to happen from all points of view (it seems a safeguarding element - so no cell growth  stimulation by testo will happen when resources are low).

Br,

Igor

Edited April 17 by IgorF