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OMG! Obesity paradox stupidity


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#1 mikeccolella

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Posted 04 March 2018 - 09:07 PM

https://www.scienced...80228131118.htm

Another almost laughable flaw in the obesity paradox. I mean this is like 5th grade level mistakes! So yeah you live longer if we start counting sooner duh!🤪

Edited by mikeccolella, 04 March 2018 - 09:09 PM.


#2 mccoy

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Posted 05 March 2018 - 01:20 PM

MMmmmm..., so many of such junky articles that I wonder if it is worth to read them any longer....


"Data speak for themselves" -Reverend Thomas Bayes 1702-1761
P(Ai|E)=(P(E|Ai)P(Ai))/P(E)


#3 Matt

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 07:13 PM

It was always laughable to think that overweight or obese people would be healthier and live longer than people who are at a lower weight and not there because of disease.

 

Whether or not you think calorie restriction works in monkeys, they certainly show that eating too much is bad for you.



#4 Dean Pomerleau

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 12:00 PM

Yes, the idea that obesity would be healthy for you has always seemed pretty silly.
 
However it is worth observing that this meta-analysis found overweight men (BMI 25-30) lived just as long as normal weight men (BMI 18.5-25) which is consistent with previous observations. So, while it probably hurts longevity to be fat, there was no apparent advantage to being thin either, at least among the general population.
 
Furthermore, this meta-analysis found that while so-called underweight men (BMI < 18.5) had a small advantage relative to normal weight (and overweight) men when it came to long-term cardiovascular-related mortality, the really skinny men were at a distinct disadvantage wrt non-cardiovascular mortality, even relative to morbidly obese men, and even in very long follow-up studies that would weed out those who were thin and died young due to latent wasting diseases like cancer.
 
Here are the two most interesting graphs from the supplemental material:
6WW8cdA.png

Judge for yourself, but it appears to me that across the two graphs, the normal weight and overweight categories have the most favorable risk profiles and were about equal to each other.
--Dean

There will never be peace in the world while there are animals in our bellies.

#5 mccoy

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 08:17 AM

Thanks Dean for providing us with some trust toward scientific papers, of course the data you posted are eloquent.

 

My remarks were related more to other amazingly egregious examples which maybe I'm going to post if I find the time.

 

There has been another thread on the obesity paradox, where it was discussed that if BMI is used as a proxy for adiposity, then it seems we have an obesity paradox, whereas sometimes it seems (according to some authors) that BMI (always in lieu of DEXA scan determinations) is more related to muscle and bone mass than fat mass, hence that's not really an obesity paradox. I couldn't find the thread so far.


Edited by mccoy, 08 March 2018 - 08:18 AM.

"Data speak for themselves" -Reverend Thomas Bayes 1702-1761
P(Ai|E)=(P(E|Ai)P(Ai))/P(E)


#6 kinase

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 09:49 AM

The "Obesity paradox" its right there on the top of the list like others of the form of "sitting is bad for you". Yeah its probably because of lack of exercise, not the position your body is in while you are on your desk.



#7 Jakbob

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 05:03 PM

Yes, the idea that obesity would be healthy for you has always seemed pretty silly.
 
However it is worth observing that this meta-analysis found overweight men (BMI 25-30) lived just as long as normal weight men (BMI 18.5-25) which is consistent with previous observations. So, while it probably hurts longevity to be fat, there was no apparent advantage to being thin either, at least among the general population.
 
Furthermore, this meta-analysis found that while so-called underweight men (BMI < 18.5) had a small advantage relative to normal weight (and overweight) men when it came to long-term cardiovascular-related mortality, the really skinny men were at a distinct disadvantage wrt non-cardiovascular mortality, even relative to morbidly obese men, and even in very long follow-up studies that would weed out those who were thin and died young due to latent wasting diseases like cancer.
 
Here are the two most interesting graphs from the supplemental material:
6WW8cdA.png


Judge for yourself, but it appears to me that across the two graphs, the normal weight and overweight categories have the most favorable risk profiles and were about equal to each other.

--Dean


It is interesting to note that diabtese risk has been noted to go up even in the normal BMI range around 23. https://www.ncbi.nlm.../pubmed/2389754

Suggests to me that a low normal BMI is probably better assuming you otherwise in good health and follow good lifestyle practices.

#8 mikeccolella

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 08:55 AM

Yes, the idea that obesity would be healthy for you has always seemed pretty silly.

However it is worth observing that this meta-analysis found overweight men (BMI 25-30) lived just as long as normal weight men (BMI 18.5-25) which is consistent with previous observations. So, while it probably hurts longevity to be fat, there was no apparent advantage to being thin either, at least among the general population.

Furthermore, this meta-analysis found that while so-called underweight men (BMI < 18.5) had a small advantage relative to normal weight (and overweight) men when it came to long-term cardiovascular-related mortality, the really skinny men were at a distinct disadvantage wrt non-cardiovascular mortality, even relative to morbidly obese men, and even in very long follow-up studies that would weed out those who were thin and died young due to latent wasting diseases like cancer.

Here are the two most interesting graphs from the supplemental material:
6WW8cdA.png


Judge for yourself, but it appears to me that across the two graphs, the normal weight and overweight categories have the most favorable risk profiles and were about equal to each other.

--Dean

The graph does not impress me Dean. I have become quite sceptical over the years wrt science research in these matters wherein factors are uncontrolled. Considering the numerous confounders involved and the complexity of sorting them out it is no wonder that actuaries are still considering obesity a very unresolved issue.
Also consider that thinness is not a causal result of heart disease; whereas most other diseases are causes of thinness/ frailty as well as drugs and smoking boozing, poor inadequate diets and the list goes on. And even if they control for mortality fo a couple years I suspect that it does not mean the confounders are all swept away because these confounders can linger for some time.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10920277.2016.1241183

Edited by mikeccolella, 27 March 2018 - 09:03 AM.


#9 Matt

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Posted 24 April 2018 - 01:59 PM

I still don't know a "thin" person IRL that is thin because they have an amazingly healthy diet. It's always because they smoke, drink too much, have terrible diets, and poor and can't afford a decent meal.

It's never because they are doing anything that resembles a healthy low-calorie CRON diet.

 

From one of my posts on my blog. 

 

"Healthy individuals eating a diet that is rich in vegetables, fruits, nuts, seeds, and fish are likely to represent a very small fraction of lean individuals. One study that was conducted by Cardiff University found that only 15 men out of 2,235 men ate more than 5 fruits and vegetables a day. Less than 1% followed all 5 healthy behaviors."

 

From the study

 

"The adoption of a healthy lifestyle by men was low and appears not to have changed during the subsequent 30 years, with under 1% of men following all five of the behaviours and 5% reporting four or more in 1979 and in 2009."

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3857242/

 

I'm sure that it doesn't get that much better for other areas of the UK and even the US, where obesity is an even bigger issue.


Edited by Matt, 24 April 2018 - 02:02 PM.


#10 TomBAvoider

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Posted 24 April 2018 - 03:56 PM

I still don't know a "thin" person IRL that is thin because they have an amazingly healthy diet. It's always because they smoke, drink too much, have terrible diets, and poor and can't afford a decent meal.

It's never because they are doing anything that resembles a healthy low-calorie CRON diet.

 

Mostly true. Even of me. I was slender all my life (19-21 BMI), with one exception - but my diet was pretty poor (though not disastrous). My diet got good only once I got on CR. Now for the exception - for a few months, my BMI balooned to 24.5, and it was due to a comedic turn of events. I had just gotten married, and my wife, also slim all her life (18-19 BMI), started cooking for us. Well, she never really cooked before, but thought it was her wifely duty to cook for the husband. I in turn was not about to criticise her cooking, so I politely ate everything. She based her cooking on what she saw at home what was "supposed" to be given to the man of the house (her parents are overweigth, though not obese). Well, my weight went up literally by 30 pounds, and soon I was the heaviest I've ever been by far - all within less than a year. My clothes no longer fit, my friends were amazed and laughing, everyone joked about gaining weight after being married. On the way back from a trip to Europe, we must have caught some bug on the airplane, and both got sick, but I got very sick, sicker than I've ever been with a cold. When I recovered, we finally talked honestly about our diet and health. There was a lot of laughter, she confessed that she thought "that's how you're *supposed* to cook", but she definitely didn't enjoy that kind of food and I told her ate everything just so that she wouldn't think I don't appreciate her cooking, and then she'd give me seconds thinking I'm hungry and so on.

 

Anyhow, I told her there was only one diet book I thought was based on science - the original Walford, that I knew about since the 80's. She read the book, I re-read it, and from then on we've been on CR, almost 20 years now. So people can gain weight for all sorts of reasons, including comical ones. Anyhow that's the tale of my brush with near-overwight status for a few months back in the day.



#11 mccoy

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Posted 24 April 2018 - 11:57 PM

Nice story! I confess I was not so polite with my wife, complaining about most of what she cooked (too salty, too oily, slightly overcooked...)


"Data speak for themselves" -Reverend Thomas Bayes 1702-1761
P(Ai|E)=(P(E|Ai)P(Ai))/P(E)