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Gordo

Just curious, anyone have a plan, or preps for global pandemic?

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Not peer reviewed, but a new study from Israel:

Comparing SARS-CoV-2 natural immunity to vaccine-induced immunity: reinfections versus breakthrough infections

Model 1: "During the follow-up period, 257 cases of SARS-CoV-2 infection were recorded, of which 238 occurred in the vaccinated group (breakthrough infections) and 19 in the previously infected group (reinfections). After adjusting for comorbidities, we found a statistically significant 13.06-fold (95% CI, 8.08 to 21.11) increased risk for breakthrough infection as opposed to reinfection (P<0.001)."

- Vaccinated-only people had 13-fold more infections than previously infected in early 2021, who were not vaccinated.

- Also, after adjusting for comorbidities, vaccinated people had a 27x higher number of symptomatic infections compared to previously infected.

"As for symptomatic SARS-COV-2 infections during the follow-up period, 199 cases were recorded, 191 of which were in the vaccinated group and 8 in the previously infected group"

"Nine cases of COVID-19-related hospitalizations were recorded, 8 of which were in the vaccinated group and 1 in the previously infected group (Table S1). No COVID19-related deaths were recorded in our cohorts."

- If they broadened the time to 2020, they saw waning immunity but still better protection for people who were previously infected vs vaccinated individuals:

"748 cases of SARS-CoV-2 infection were recorded, 640 of which were in the vaccinated group (breakthrough infections) and 108 in the previously infected group (reinfections).

"Overall, 552 symptomatic cases of SARS-CoV-2 were recorded, 484 in the vaccinated group and 68 in the previously infected group. There was a 7.13-fold (95% CI, 5.51 to 9.21) increased risk for symptomatic breakthrough infection than symptomatic reinfection (Table 3b)"

The study found that there was some additional protection for people who were previously infected and had 1 dose of vaccine.

PDF: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1.full.pdf

Edited by Matt

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Very interesting Matt!

Together with the antibody study that I just posted the results from your study seem to support the idea that spike protein antibodies are just one part of a broader immune response that covid infection triggers in people. It would have been even more interesting if they had compared the reinfection rate of people who had previously had symptomatic vs. asymptomatic covid infections.

Similarly it would be interesting to see the rate of a second infection in those who received a covid vaccine then got infected compared with people who had not got the vaccine, got infected and then got reinfected. This would answer the important question of whether or not getting infected after being vaccinated triggers the same comprehensive immune response to covid that a naive infection usually does (assuming the person survives the first infection).

In other words, even if the current batch of vaccines isn't perfect at preventing infections (which is obvious) might they still be a "gentler" (more survivable) way of getting to complete protection by reducing the severity of a subsequent covid infection that nonetheless triggers comprehensive immunity. Or conversely do you have to get quite sick before your immune system gets riled up enough to trigger comprehensive community.

As you indicated at the end it was interesting to see that one dose of the Pfizer vaccine resulted in a 50% reduction in the rate of reinfection in people who had previously contracted covid. 

--Dean 

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4 hours ago, Dean Pomerleau said:

Together with the antibody study that I just posted the results from your study seem to support the idea that spike protein antibodies are just one part of a broader immune response that covid infection triggers in people

So it would appear that "antibody signal" is pretty worthless as an indicator of protection against future infection.  A better measure is simply the real stats about infections with severity of symptoms being important as well as waning protection over time.

I've seen some interesting new treatment ideas that show promise:

Clinical efficacy of nitric oxide nasal spray (NONS) for the treatment of mild COVID-19 infection

"A rapid reduction (95%) in the SARS-CoV-2 viral load was observed within 24 hours, with a 99% reduction observed within 72 hours with NONS treatments."

"A total of 46.7% (7 of 15) of NONS respondents reported feeling better versus 8% (2 of 25) of placebo respondents on treatment. NONS subjects typically reported being better by day 2-4 on treatment, whereas the placebo subjects typically did not report feeling better until after day 5."

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Gordo said:

So it would appear that "antibody signal" is pretty worthless as an indicator of protection against future infection.  A better measure is simply the real stats about infections with severity of symptoms being important as well as waning protection over time.

I've seen some interesting new treatment ideas that show promise:

Clinical efficacy of nitric oxide nasal spray (NONS) for the treatment of mild COVID-19 infection

"A rapid reduction (95%) in the SARS-CoV-2 viral load was observed within 24 hours, with a 99% reduction observed within 72 hours with NONS treatments."

"A total of 46.7% (7 of 15) of NONS respondents reported feeling better versus 8% (2 of 25) of placebo respondents on treatment. NONS subjects typically reported being better by day 2-4 on treatment, whereas the placebo subjects typically did not report feeling better until after day 5."

 

 

Humming through the nose can have a similar effect.

https://erj.ersjournals.com/content/22/2/323

Here is a simple humming exercise you can do if you feel you are coming down with a respiratory infection, sinusitis, or are unwell. You can do it any time as a preventative measure to help boost immunity. We associate humming with cheerfulness and you’ll notice that it’s difficult to hum and feel down at the same time.

 

  1. Breathe through your nose with mouth closed and the tip of your tongue resting behind your top front teeth.
    (Note: if you can’t breathe through your nose do the Nose Unblocking exercise first).
  2. As you exhale slowly through your nose make a sustained “hmmmmmm…..” sound.
  3. Avoid pushing the air out with force. As with everything to do with breathing this should be done gently.
  4. Now, breathe in gently through your nose and repeat.
  5. The sinuses are air filled cavities located around your nose, temples and above your eye sockets. To increase the effect of the exercise you can gently massage those areas while doing the exercise.
  6. If you have a stubborn blocked nose or sinusitis repeat this exercise for 5 to 10 minutes, two to four times a day for a few days or until symptoms improve.

 

When doing this exercise the vibrations you might feel are helping increase air circulation and production of NO in your nasal and sinus cavities.

To learn more about the benefits of humming read The Humming Effect by Jonathan and Andi Goldman.[5]

 

Edited by Mike41

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4 hours ago, Gordo said:

So it would appear that "antibody signal" is pretty worthless as an indicator of protection against future infection.

No, not quite for several reasons.

First, spike protein antibodies induced by the vaccine do provide some protection against infection relative to someone with a covid-naive immune system. It is hard to know exactly how much protection because of limited testing of people who may have asymptomatic infections, but estimated I've seen is in the neighborhood of 3x to 5x protection - still substantial but not the 10-20x lower risk that was originally hoped for before delta.

Second, it appears to be spike protein antibodies (i.e. those induced by the current batch of vaccines) that provide only partial protection against the delta variant. This study in Nature [1] found that antibodies distilled from previously infected rhesus monkeys were quite effective at preventing infection when injected into other, covid-naive monkeys who were then exposed to the original strain of the virus, at least when the antibody cocktail was given in a high enough dose.

If this generalizes to humans (which it should), this suggests that a high enough level of the right types of antibodies (i.e. a broad spectrum) are sufficient to prevent infection. It also shows that the levels of antibodies is important for preventing infection, which is probably much more the case now with the delta variant since it seems to replicate much faster than the original strain tested in [1].

This indirectly suggests that dramatically jacking up the level of spike protein antibodies (e.g. with a booster shot of a vaccine - which seems to increase levels by 5-9x above original levels when administered at 6-8 months post inoculation) might also be helpful at preventing infection from delta, at least until the virus mutates again to escape that particular type of antibody entirely, a distinct possibility as Todd has pointed out.

It would be really helpful to test this hypothesis using the same monkey protocol using a cocktail of vaccine-induced spike protein antibodies at various concentrations to see if they can block infection with the delta variant, and if so at what concentration. This would tell us whether or not booster shots are likely to be beneficial for preventing infection.

--Dean

--------------------

[1]  McMahan, K., Yu, J., Mercado, N.B. et al. Correlates of protection against SARS-CoV-2 in rhesus macaques. Nature 590, 630–634 (2021). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41586-020-03041-6

Abstract
Recent studies have reported the protective efficacy of both natural1 and vaccine-induced2,3,4,5,6,7 immunity against challenge with severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) in rhesus macaques. However, the importance of humoral and cellular immunity for protection against infection with SARS-CoV-2 remains to be determined. Here we show that the adoptive transfer of purified IgG from convalescent rhesus macaques (Macaca mulatta) protects naive recipient macaques against challenge with SARS-CoV-2 in a dose-dependent fashion. Depletion of CD8+ T cells in convalescent macaques partially abrogated the protective efficacy of natural immunity against rechallenge with SARS-CoV-2, which suggests a role for cellular immunity in the context of waning or subprotective antibody titres. These data demonstrate that relatively low antibody titres are sufficient for protection against SARS-CoV-2 in rhesus macaques, and that cellular immune responses may contribute to protection if antibody responses are suboptimal. We also show that higher antibody titres are required for treatment of SARS-CoV-2 infection in macaques. These findings have implications for the development of SARS-CoV-2 vaccines and immune-based therapeutic agents.

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An editorial by Peter Doshi, senior editor of the British Medical Journal, critically reviewing the data and FDA processes to grant emergency use authorizations for Pfizer and Moderna vaccines.
https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/01/04/peter-doshi-pfizer-and-modernas-95-effective-vaccines-we-need-more-details-and-the-raw-data/

A recent editorial critically reviewing the “full” approval:
https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/08/23/does-the-fda-think-these-data-justify-the-first-full-approval-of-a-covid-19-vaccine/

An article raising interesting points regarding the approval and vaccine mandates:
https://technofog.substack.com/p/the-suspicious-fda-approval-of-the

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This is pretty hilarious, the CCP has apparently resorted to making up a fake Swiss scientist to defend against Covid origins probes:

Chinese state media has seized on a Swiss scientist critical of a covid origins probe. The one problem: He might not exist.

"China has rejected new efforts to learn more about how the coronavirus spread to humans, for which the United States and WHO have pushed. Few Western scientists have taken up Beijing’s cause."

 

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15 hours ago, Todd Allen said:

A recent editorial critically reviewing the “full” approval:

The Pfizer vax has not been FDA approved as of today , 28 Aug 2021.

This is not new news to those who follow the subject. But the powers that be are working their hardest to suppress the data. Who knows ...Google, FB  may be protecting their bottom line ($$) ... which is understandable... even tho' history may ultimately write it as "blood money."

Example: YT took down Dr Martenson's topical video immediately ... but he did wisely mirror it on alternate sites:

https://odysee.com/@Chris_Martenson:2/vaccine-mandates-are-here:e

Note the number of REF links below the Odysee video to support the argument.Insert other media

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Data Confirms Natural Immunity is Best
https://odysee.com/@Chris_Martenson:2/EP023:2

Quote

A large well-run study from Israel confirms that people with a prior SARS2 infection have vastly stronger immunity to both subsequent infection as well as hospitalization as compared to people who had received two doses of the Pfizer vaccine (but had not had prior exposure).

A third group which had both prior infection and a single jab did somewhat better than either of the other two groups.

This argues conclusively that prior infection can be and should be a basis for vaccine exemption. As always, if the data changes, so will we.

But for sure, we can say that it’s not as simple as being either vaxxed or unvaxxed. There’s a third group in the mix and that’s people who have already had a SARS2 infection and recovered. They are a far safer group than the vaxxed in that they don’t get reinfected as much as the vaxxed, and they don’t go to the hospital nearly as often.

So the hyperbolic vaxxed crowd calling for the unvaxxed to suffer, or pay more, or even - in some grotesque examples - suffer and die is entirely misplaced, inappropriate, and vile.

Links:

Israeli Study: 
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1.full.pdf

“Necessity of Covid-19 vaccination in previously infected individuals”: 
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.01.21258176v2

Sweden’s Response: 
https://www.folkhalsomyndigheten.se/the-public-health-agency-of-sweden/communicable-disease-control/covid-19/covid-19-faq/

 

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2 hours ago, KHashmi317 said:

The Pfizer vax has not been FDA approved as of today , 28 Aug 2021.

As I understand it Pfizer was granted a marketing license for Comirnaty which is essentially the same product as their vaccine sold under the emergency authorization.  I don't know the exact details but supposedly this license is similar to a license granted with full approval but they are not eligible for full approval without an additional year of successful trial data.  But the FDA is calling Comirnaty an "FDA approved" vaccine.  Whatever the final story turns out to be it appears many now, including the US military, are acting as if the vaccine has received full approval and are moving ahead with vaccine mandates.

https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-biologics/qa-comirnaty-covid-19-vaccine-mrna

Edited by Todd Allen

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On 8/22/2021 at 2:27 AM, Dean Pomerleau said:

Khurram is now sharing content from Alex Jones' InfoWars. Boy this forum has really jumped the shark...

 

On 8/22/2021 at 2:16 PM, Dean Pomerleau said:

You are sounding more and more like Alex Jones.

Is there are any need for this and is it conducive to a civil discussion, in any way? Personal attacks and attacks on sources are the tools of ideologues and true believers and unfortunately have become all too common among the righteous, especially since last year. Let's stick to the actual arguments, eh?

 

On 8/22/2021 at 4:41 PM, Gordo said:

I figured if I ran into a person that suffered from this AND the FDA added it to their fact sheet as a risk, that it was more common than the stats you cite above but I must confess I never even tried to find the number of reports.  But regardless, the J&J strength against delta and lack of waning efficacy might be a reason to prefer it.

Yes, but one has to keep in mind that J&J had identified 6 cases of blood clotting in 6.8 million doses, yet it was quickly pulled from the market. Yet, Todd notes above, Pfizer just received defacto full approval, enabling the Biden Administration to roll out vaccine mandates among federal employees, and calling on Democrat states and large private companies to follow suit. It's hard not to at least think "political favoritism" and "crony capitalism" when viewing the actions of the US and the EU toward Pfizer-BioNTech (or the US media monopolies).

The number of adverse reactions appears to vary depending on the study and I see numbers as high as 1 in 3000 among those under 30. But, unlike with Covid deaths and PCR-test cycle recommendations during 2020, the CDC is unusually conservative in its estimates in this case.

Again, while I think those over 50 and those with comorbidities should opt to vaccinate against SARS-Cov-2 (and against the flu), I find the mandate to be a politically motivated violation of basic civil rights, just like the lockdowns were, and the mask mandates for the healthy are. I hope the frog jumps out before it's slowly boiled.






 

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On 8/27/2021 at 10:09 PM, Mike41 said:

"A rapid reduction (95%) in the SARS-CoV-2 viral load was observed within 24 hours, with a 99% reduction observed within 72 hours with NONS treatments."

Humming through the nose can have a similar effect. 

Hmmm.... interesting.  Thanks.

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On 8/27/2021 at 8:10 PM, Todd Allen said:

An editorial by Peter Doshi, senior editor of the British Medical Journal, critically reviewing the data and FDA processes to grant emergency use authorizations for Pfizer and Moderna vaccines.
https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/01/04/peter-doshi-pfizer-and-modernas-95-effective-vaccines-we-need-more-details-and-the-raw-data/

A recent editorial critically reviewing the “full” approval:
https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/08/23/does-the-fda-think-these-data-justify-the-first-full-approval-of-a-covid-19-vaccine/

An article raising interesting points regarding the approval and vaccine mandates:
https://technofog.substack.com/p/the-suspicious-fda-approval-of-the

Yep, crazy is the new normal. Politically motivated Covid narrative is being combined with the neo-Left's adoption of crony-capitalism, favoring select businesses over others. The Biden Administration is using the FDA to advance its political goals and to reward Pfizer, which some argue provided critical support to it. The rushed FDA approval allows vaccine mandates for federal employees and increases pressure on large businesses to punish those who refuse to be vaccinated. The mandates are important in some government sectors that are being purged by the Democrats, such as the military -- those who chose to retire on principle are likely opposing the regime, and the rest are forced to conform. Conditioning a society to conformism is a key tool of oppressive governments.

 

On 8/27/2021 at 8:09 AM, Mike41 said:

Humming through the nose can have a similar effect.

Hah, my ENT has been telling me about humming for years, as well as advising a daily saltwater nose rinse to prevent upper respiratory diseases. He swears by it, although I rarely remember to do it.

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Here is a short (20 minutes) speech titled Covid 19 and Lockdowns: The Ugly Truth, by Nick Hudson. It does a good summary of the key fallacies that have been spread, primarily by the Left and the media, both of which were largely in opposition before SARS-Cov-2 and pounced on it with all they had.

It briefly addresses false narrative elements, such as SARS-Cov-2 being a "new" virus, transmission by asymptomatic people, the conflation of "Case Fatality Rate" of Covid with the "Infection Fatality Rate" of the flu to inflame fear. It's a well-reasoned presentation.
 

 

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On 8/27/2021 at 2:36 AM, Matt said:

Comparing SARS-CoV-2 natural immunity to vaccine-induced immunity: reinfections versus breakthrough infections

This makes sense, as an actual infection would presumably affect an organism differently than a vaccine shot in a muscle. Unless someone is in the "vulnerable" group, getting a jab of a novel vaccine with rushed approval and unknown long-term effects may not be worth the risk, even if the chances for such long-term effects are small.

Here are some articles to ponder:

'Breakthrough' COVID Infections Less Transmissible, English Data Indicate

A Systematic Review of the Protective Effect of Prior SARS-CoV-2 Infection on Repeat Infection

The Delta SARS-CoV-2 variant has a higher viral load than the Beta and the historical variants in nasopharyngeal samples from newly diagnosed COVID-19 patients (Delta's VL is similar to Alpha)

And a longish article:

Natural immunity vs Covid-19 vaccine-induced immunity

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1 hour ago, Todd Allen said:

University of California San Diego Health workforce experienced major increase of breakthrough infections in July. 

 

Yeah,  not at all surprising.

 

Quote

The dramatic change in vaccine effectiveness from June to July is likely to be due to both the emergence of the delta variant and waning immunity over time, compounded by the end of masking requirements in California and the resulting greater risk of exposure in the community.

Our findings underline the importance of rapidly reinstating nonpharmaceutical interventions, such as indoor masking and intensive testing strategies, in addition to continued efforts to increase vaccinations, as strategies to prevent avoidable illness and deaths and to avoid mass disruptions to society during the spread of this formidable variant.

Furthermore, if our findings on waning immunity are verified in other settings, booster doses may be indicated.

 

 

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I wonder if it would make sense for someone that is not vulnerable (in good health, with solid immune system) and already fully vaccinated, to deliberately be exposed to covid?  Why? My thinking is that almost everyone will eventually be exposed, but your risk may be higher later on in life, your vaccine effectiveness may wane, your health may deteriorate over time, or you could be exposed when you are temporarily compromised by something else. What would the benefit be? Much higher levels of immunity for future, possibly lifelong protection.  People used to do this for example with chicken pox (they would have chicken pox parties). The risk to fully vaccinated healthy people should be very low. 

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On 9/2/2021 at 12:12 AM, Sibiriak said:
Quote

The dramatic change in vaccine effectiveness from June to July is likely to be due to both the emergence of the delta variant and waning immunity over time, compounded by the end of masking requirements in California and the resulting greater risk of exposure in the community.

Our findings underline the importance of rapidly reinstating nonpharmaceutical interventions, such as indoor masking and intensive testing strategies, in addition to continued efforts to increase vaccinations, as strategies to prevent avoidable illness and deaths and to avoid mass disruptions to society during the spread of this formidable variant.

Furthermore, if our findings on waning immunity are verified in other settings, booster doses may be indicated.

 

I found the data interesting but their conclusions appear misguided.

It is not looking good for the jabbing war on covid, despite Israel’s record setting triple jabbing of the most vulnerable:
Worldometer data from 9/1/2021
Daily cases/million deaths/million
Israel  2206.8   4.62
US        559.3   4.47

I think Israel had the highest case rate per million of any country by a wide margin and their case trajectory has been on a steep climb for weeks.  It will be curious to see how this goes as they expand boosters to ever younger segments of their population.  I've seen graphs of a significant excess mortality rate tracking with the vaccination rate and it will be interesting to see if young adults will see as many unexpected heart attacks as the elderly have been having in the week after their boosters.

worldometer9-1-2021short.jpg.d517b7eb8e97de1a1e93deb04dc9e812.jpg

Edited by Todd Allen

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Immunity To COVID-19 Could Last Longer Than You'd Think

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/08/30/1032520934/immunity-to-covid-19-could-last-longer-than-youd-think

booster shots may not even be necessary based on the science of mRNA vaccines. 
 

Excerpts from the article:

 

Because the media has largely overlooked several key facts about the antibodies present eight months after the vaccine. For starters, they're more powerful than the original ones triggered by the vaccine, Bhattacharya says.

While the first round of archers (antibodies) was out guarding the moat of your castle (respiratory tract), the immune system wasn't just sitting around idly, hoping those soldiers would be enough. Instead, it was busy training better archers — and a whole bunch of foot soldiers too.

After your second shot, the immune system sets up a training center in the lymph nodes to teach special cells how to make more powerful antibodies, the Nature paper from June reported.

 

He and his colleagues have found that by about six months after vaccination, these antibody-producing cells go into the bone marrow, where they can live for decades, perhaps even a lifetime, studies have found, and continue to produce antibodies the entire time. In one 2008 study, researchers identified antibodies that could neutralize the 1918 flu in the blood of people who were exposed to the virus 90 years earlier.

Edited by Mike41

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5 hours ago, Mike41 said:

booster shots may not even be necessary

 

Nothing definitive can be stated at this point,  really. Here's another take:

Third COVID Vaccine Dose Could Be the Last

Quote

Peter Hotez, MD, PhD, of Baylor College of Medicine in Houston, said on CNN Monday night that a 3-week interval between the first and second doses of Pfizer's mRNA vaccine, for instance, may not have been enough time to spur an extended immune response, with the initial shots acting only as a primary immunization.

An 8-month lag, on the other hand, could boost immunity significantly, Hotez said, with the potential to yield high levels of virus-neutralizing antibody and an immune response that is "really robust."

"That may be it for a while, we may not need annual boosters," Hotez said. "This could be the third and done."

Since it's typical for antibodies to wane over time, it's common for vaccines to be administered in multiple doses over a longer time period. People get three shots over a 6-month period for hepatitis B, for instance, and a four-dose regimen is recommended for polio.

"In fact, it is unusual to give a one-dose, give-and-go vaccine," John Moore, PhD, professor of microbiology and immunology at Weill Cornell Medicine in New York, told MedPage Today. "Most vaccines require at least two shots."

In a multi-dose vaccine regimen, a longer interval between doses gives the immune system time to mature, Moore said. During this time period, a process called affinity maturation takes place, which causes antibodies to improve in quality while dwindling in number, he said.

Moore said studies have shown that people who were previously infected with COVID-19 experience affinity maturation, as they have higher quality antibodies months after initially getting sick.

However, a third dose may also promote this process, he added. When a vaccine delivers another round of antigen to the body, it activates memory B cells, and allows them to produce improved, higher-quality antibodies to fight COVID-19.

Monica Gandhi, MD, MPH, of the University of California San Francisco, said that a longer duration between COVID-19 injections will certainly improve the immune response. Gandhi -- who does not believe a third dose for immunocompetent people should be given ahead of global vaccination distribution -- added that boosters would likely not be recommended if not for the highly transmissible Delta variant.

Once caseloads are down, she added, people probably won't need regular COVID-19 vaccinations in the future.

"I don't think we are going to need boosters every year," Gandhi told MedPage Today. Coronaviruses do not have a high propensity to mutate like influenza, so by the time antibodies wane -- an expected outcome -- higher levels of immunity in the general population will probably prevent people from needing additional jabs, she said.

But Moore said there's still not enough data to know for sure whether an annual booster will be needed. Unknown factors such as new outbreaks or emerging variants will influence recommendations for additional immunizations.

"It's crystal-ball gazing," Moore said. "Who knows where we are going to be in a year's time.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Sibiriak

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Immunovaccinology is more and more sounding like nutrition: different groups of researchers saying one thing and the opposite thing at the same time. 👎

More to the point, that's after all what medicine is about: application of research and observation on patients. What's nonplussing is that we have data samples of tens of millions of individuals, so I would expect more unanimous opinions.

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11 hours ago, Sibiriak said:

But Moore said there's still not enough data to know for sure whether an annual booster will be needed. Unknown factors such as new outbreaks or emerging variants will influence recommendations for additional immunizations.

"It's crystal-ball gazing," Moore said. "Who knows where we are going to be in a year's time.

That's correct:  We don't know -- and excessive speculation is good only for selling newspapers.

  --  Saul

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Man, a friend of mine, in his 40s just died of covid this week AND he was fully vaccinated. I was just helping his widow today, they have 4 kids. Brutal. She broke down crying while I was there. She said the whole family got covid but he was the only one that had serious symptoms (respiratory, had to be ventilated). They were all vaccinated. Unfortunately he was seriously overweight (like half of Americans). 

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6 minutes ago, Gordo said:

Man, a friend of mine, in his 40s just died of covid this week AND he was fully vaccinated. I was just helping his widow today, they have 4 kids. Brutal. She broke down crying while I was there. She said the whole family got covid but he was the only one that had serious symptoms (respiratory, had to be ventilated). They were all vaccinated. Unfortunately he was seriously overweight (like half of Americans). 

Wow, that's terrible Gordo. My condolences to his wife and kids. Clearly the vaccine doesn't provide 100% protection. Any idea how they came down with it? 

--Dean

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